A Clash of Titans, Xhoel (Axis) vs Bitburger (Soviet)

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Telemecus
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RE: T52

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: xhoel
A bombing run on the city was met by heavy AA fire, which destroyed 13 bombers out of 80. Further air raids were put on hold.

(I believe that the flak in game (as of this patch) is far too powerful. Such results as shown, make bombing of big cities a stupid move because the losses are so heavy. And all of this in a city that has been cut off from supply for 3 weeks now. This isn't the first time this has happened but I wanted to emphasize it.)

I have to agree on flak. While I understand the reasons the developers chose to do it to rebalance the air war, this was after they had just nerfed the Soviet air force. So it seemed to me taking away from the one arm that could shoot down bombers (if you placed them correctly and had them) and giving to another arm that was never that powerful.

This did remind me of a tactic Stelteck used with isolated units. He bombed them a lot (before the buff to flak) not because of the damage they did but simply to use up the enemy ammo. He would then find the enemy units suffered from the too little ammunition penalty. I wondered if you saw anything like that in clearing the pocket. It would not be worth losing 13 bombers over, but it is some compensation at least?
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RE: T52

Post by xhoel »

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: xhoel
A bombing run on the city was met by heavy AA fire, which destroyed 13 bombers out of 80. Further air raids were put on hold.

(I believe that the flak in game (as of this patch) is far too powerful. Such results as shown, make bombing of big cities a stupid move because the losses are so heavy. And all of this in a city that has been cut off from supply for 3 weeks now. This isn't the first time this has happened but I wanted to emphasize it.)

I have to agree on flak. While I understand the reasons the developers chose to do it to rebalance the air war, this was after they had just nerfed the Soviet air force. So it seemed to me taking away from the one arm that could shoot down bombers (if you placed them correctly and had them) and giving to another arm that was never that powerful.

This did remind me of a tactic Stelteck used with isolated units. He bombed them a lot (before the buff to flak) not because of the damage they did but simply to use up the enemy ammo. He would then find the enemy units suffered from the too little ammunition penalty. I wondered if you saw anything like that in clearing the pocket. It would not be worth losing 13 bombers over, but it is some compensation at least?

Flak was never this powerful so this shouldn't be the case in game either.

I don't follow the tactic and have not paid attention to it during the pocket clearing. To me, the AA using up their ammo stocks, shouldn't translate to the infantry running out of ammo for their rifles and SMGs. I bomb units to damage elements and cause disruption, which softens the targets and makes the battles easier for my side. The bomber losses were taken over Voronezh itself, and the AA firing should be part of the city AA SU defense, so it wouldn't affect the ammo that the onmap units have. I think bombing cities with heavy AA is now off the table, considering how little damage that raid caused (200 men disrupted) for such a high cost, especially when considering that these bombers were fresh and sitting on an AB which was fully stocked.
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RE: T52

Post by Bear1888 »

There must be a way to keep light flak units (20 mm gun units) strong against low flying ground attack AC while nerfing the heavy flak units effect on high altitude bombers.

Flak was not a real threat to medium bombers flying high but deadly for Sturmovik and JU-87 attack AC making low level attack runs. One of the most dreaded jobs for allied pilots was low level attacks on German airfields.
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RE: T52

Post by xhoel »

ORIGINAL: Bear1888

There must be a way to keep light flak units (20 mm gun units) strong against low flying ground attack AC while nerfing the heavy flak units effect on high altitude bombers.

Flak was not a real threat to medium bombers flying high but deadly for Sturmovik and JU-87 attack AC making low level attack runs. One of the most dreaded jobs for allied pilots was low level attacks on German airfields.

The thing is that it needs to be changed and nerfed a bit.
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Update on the AAR.

Post by xhoel »

Small update on the AAR:

Turns 10-15 have just been updated with high resolution images without watermarks, which should make reading through them much easier. Now all turns are updated with high quality images and there are no watermarks.

A small report is coming, in regards to the failed offensive operation in the south. This will probably be posted before the update for T53. At the end of turn 54 (the beginning of summer) I will be making a big report in regards to casualties, goals for the summer offensive, state of the 2 factions etc.

Stay tuned!
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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by chaos45 »

Just remember German flak is even more powerful against soviet bombers due to higher EXP lol.

Good pockets...going to be hard for your opponent to stay relevant already in 1942, his only option is to run in the south already. Should be able to easily push him almost to the map edge based on what I see the situation as on the map right now.
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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by Bear1888 »

One suggestion about Sevastopol:

Is it possible to reinforce your infantry corps there with Model ( I know. Hube is a good commander but imho Model has +1 Moral and Infantry rating) and some heavy rocket launcher units? And you should have at least one siege artillery unit with a 60 cm caliber "Karl Mörser" as OKH reserve. Would be great to have this monster at Sevastopol.

Would be great to attach 3 pioneer units to each infantry division and pack the corps HQ with heavy artillery and SPG's.
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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by xhoel »

@chaos45: Could be. I am not seeing a huge difference between the performance of both flak arms (Soviet and German) but the fact remains that it needs to be nerfed.

I don't think it will be such a easy fight. The big thing will be Moscow and he has concentrated a lot of good units there who are defending in good terrain and with high fort levels. In the South, Stalingrad has been fortified as well and he has had ample time to fortify the Don line. I'm looking forward to the Summer, it should be a tough but fun campaign.

@Bear1888: Yes, Model will take command next week. I needed him in the AGN sector this week, in the offensive operation there but he will be flown to the Crimea ASAP. There are Heavy Artillery units concentrated in the Crimea, the Karl Morser is also present there and even activated on turn 51 if I recall correctly. All HQs are densly packed with arty but you are right, I should add some rocket regiments in the mix.

Unfortunately I cannot spare to attach 3 Pioneer Bns to each division. They have all been reinforced by 1 Pioneer Bn and the main units have also received Stugs in certain occasions.
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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by Bear1888 »

Nice. Now blast away this pesky rifle corps at Sevastopol German style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaekR2nk1t8

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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

I always missed the German rail artillery competent in WitE. An on map move-only-by-rail artillery regiment would be nice to have, but require some Code change.
The Soviets likewise miss some heavy coastal artillery across the map, e.g. the battleship turret batteries from sevastopol.
(they could be included in some sort of fortress fortified zone.)
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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by Bear1888 »

Indeed. A German heavy siege artillery train would be nice. With a 2 hex fire range and movable like a railroad repair unit.:) and also the Baltic red banner fleet supporting the defense of Leningrad.

Maybe in WITE 2?
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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by xhoel »

@EvK: It would be a nice addition no doubt. I don't think we will see that in WitE but maybe in WitE2 if we are lucky. For the Soviets, you can make the battleship turrets in a type of SU that you just attach to Sevastopol like you would with AA SUs.

@Bear1888: Yeah, they could act like Soviet Artillery Brigades/Divisions albeit to a smaller scale. I think Naval HQs will be a thing in WitE 2 the same they are in WitW but don't quote me on that, because I don't know for sure, just guessing.
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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by xhoel »

OKH report on the failure of the Donets offensive.

In retrospective of the failed offensive operation the OKH deemed it necessary to analyize the reasons for this failure and to get a lesson out of it so that we can avoid repeating our mistakes in the future.

First of all we need to look at the minor reasons for the failure. This can be quickly summarized in 3 points which affect each other. The first one was the inability of German local commanders at Corps level to push back the enemy forces (eg bad rolls). This can be seen in the failure of attacks and the halving of CV in more than one case. The other reason was the tenacity of Soviet forces in holding their ground (eg good enemy rolls as well as SU activation and air support). Soviet CV did increase due to good rolls as well as SU activation.

While these reasons did play a role in the failure of the offensive, they were not the main culprits.
The biggest problem with the operation was the small number of formations that were available for offensive operations as well as their positioning. While the infantry forces were enough to break through the first line of defense they lacked the MP and CV to punch through Soviet secondary lines, leaving the job to the Panzer Corps deployed to the north, which not only had to clear Soviet units deployed in the secondary and tertiary defensive lines but also make headway in the Soviet rear and secure the pocket, an impossible task, one could say. This lack of MP and of units translated in a poor security screening of the breakthrough forces, which should always be secured in such pincer operations.

Especially considering the fact that the attacks were conducted in unfavorable terrain (1 minor river crossing and 1 major river crossing), we should have had more units in the ready for both assault and screening of the breakthrough forces.
The position of the units was also not optimal. Most units were on the frontline and had to expand MP to be brought into their staging areas. This not only meant, that MP were spent on movement that could have been avoided but also that the fatigue of the units increased by quite a bit, which does affect combat efficiency. The armored forces were also positioned in unfavorable positions and had to cover a lot of ground or cross the river (like the motorized division shown below) to get to their staging areas. Such excessive movement not only eats up fuel and MP, but also builds fatigue and decreases TOE as AFVs breakdown thus lowering the combat power of said units. Most Panzer and Motorized formations had around 40 MP at the beginning of the operation, which is only 80% of their capacity.

Image

In red, panzer/motorized divisions that took part in the northern thrust. In yellow, formations that took part in the southern thrust. Circled in black, units that were not on the frontline at the beginning of the offensive.

The 2 Panzer Corps model pincer which was used in the north this turn, failed to yield results in the south. Even if the breakthrough in both flanks would have been successful, the motorized/armored formations were inadequate in number to secure the pocket and would have been forced to expose themselves to powerful Soviet counterattacks from strong well rested units that the enemy had in the vicinity. This means that from now on, the OKH will conduct such big pincer movements with forces, the equivalent of a Panzer Army (3 Panzer Corps). This means that the Panzer Corps that is in Crimea right now (belonging to the 1st Panzer Army), will be ordered to move to the Rostov sector immediately so that they are in position for the upcoming summer offensive.

Another big problem was the lack of air support. While the IV Fliegerkorps was in the area and did do its best to support the operation, we simply did not have enough air groups in the area to dominate the skies and hit the enemy ground forces with impunity. Thus many attacks were launched without a preliminary air bombardment or without Air support.

Lessons pulled from this failure:

1) Have enough units ready and in position to be able to breakthrough the main line of defense and also to screen the pocket. The infantry should do most of the fighting in order to allow the exploiting force to secure the pocket. The infantry should do most of the fighting and allow the Panzer/Motorized divisions to save their MPs for exploitation.
2) Make sure you have enough armored/motorized formation for hitting the enemy rear and sealing the pocket. Make sure they are fell supplied and close to the breakthrough point.
3) Make sure there is enough air support to do ground bombing and to run ground support missions.
4) Plan large scale operations better, having more reserves at hand and do not underestimate the enemy.

This concludes the OKH report for the failure of the Donets offensive. Feel free to comment and give me your thoughts on the matter.

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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by Crackaces »

It is one reason that in 8MP turns 55 - 65, I chose to punch rather than hug. A much stronger formation to hold on to territory. Eventually when you punch deep enough .. you can pocket with little risks of isolation.
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RE: Update on the AAR.

Post by xhoel »

True, but that is risky as it depends on what your opponent will do. If they retreat, you will be left with a lot of ground but no destroyed Soviet units and I believe that destroying the Red Army is what gets you the victory, although taking manpower centers away from the enemy is always a plus.
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T53

Post by xhoel »

T53, 18th of June-25th of June 1942

AGN


Finnish Air bases in the North have been bombed again and have taken heavy losses. We are deploying a fighter group in the area, to protect the Finnish forces and to counter Soviet raids.
The pocket in the north held. The Soviets did not try to break the pocket but have moved units to “hug” our forces, thus hindering resupply operations. The VVS did attempt to resupply the trapped forces by air but failed to do so efficiently, only 1 Rifle Division was successfully resupplied. We attacked the enemy in 2 exposed positions and have pushed infantry forward. The pocket should be cleared by next week. The Soviets have given up some ground in the Vaidai hills sector.

Image

Soviet air raids on Finnish airfields:

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Pocket:

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Positions after Axis moves:

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AGC

The pocket in the center held as well. Supply of our armored forces is bad as they are very far away from the rails. Some units have been resupplied by air alleviating the lack of fuel. The enemy has not tried to counterattack and has pulled back forces along the whole front. Axis infantry has moved forward and has started relieving armored and motorized divisions in their forward positions. An attack on the pocket, destroyed a Soviet Rifle Division. Next week, the Voronezh and Ryazan pocket should be cleared and armored/motorized forces will be pulled back for R&R. Heavy fighter cover has been ordered for the sector.

Positions at the start of the week:

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Positions at the end of the week:

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AGS

The Soviets have pulled back behind the Don, abandoning large scathes of territory. Axis forces are pushing forward slowly due to heavy mud and bad roads. Boguchar has been abandoned and was captured by the 239th Infantry Division. German vanguard units have crossed the Chir river and in their advance have cut off a Soviet Rifle Brigade. Armored formations are being held back as many of their tanks are undergoing field repairs and because OKH has prohibited any unnecessary movement until the weather clears again. They will be relocated to their staging areas next week.

Image

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Crimea

The Soviets have evacuated the Coastal Army from Sevastopol, denying the Soviet defenders artillery, engineer and AT support. Sevastopol is now being defended by 2 divisions and 1 Rifle Corps. Soviet units have pulled back from their forward positions. It takes two attacks to dislodge the Soviet Rifle division holding the mountain pass (due to really good Soviet rolls). Other attacks (3 of them), attempting to cut off the Soviet defenders from the port have failed. The failure was again due to really good Soviet rolls. German forces could not break through even though we had massive artillery, pioneer, rocket and air support. The fort level has dropped from 4.10 to 3.68 and should not increase next turn (due to fortification building rules). The 3/833rd Siege Mortar Battery with their powerful 600mm Mortars took part in one of the battles this week. Their effect on Soviet fortifications was meager, the fort level only dropped by 0.22. We are planning further attacks next week. Clearing the Coastal Army is the main goal before the direct assault on Sevastopol begins. The difficulty in clearing the Crimea is becoming very frustrating. We hope that luck treats us better next week.

Start of the week:

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Unlucky battle:

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Positions at the end of the week:

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Casualties from the heavy fighting in the Crimea:

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RE: T53

Post by xhoel »

Casualties:

Heavy Soviet KIAs due to the 2 pockets. Axis lose around 93 AFV.

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RE: T53

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: xhoel
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Have you thought of staggering back another air base further back with fighters to defend that airbase but out of reach of enemy fighters. Or just have another airbase further back just for the Brewsters (and maybe Hawks) which have a much longer range than Soviet fighters anyway. At least then the Finnish fighters (some of them) would be immune. You might be short of a Finnish airbase to do this - but a fifth one should be arriving soon.

Sadly those G50s and MS406s are not only shorter range but just not very good by 1942.
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RE: T53

Post by Telemecus »

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Image

Unlucky battle:

Image

I had a question about reserve activations. Would I be right to say the seven onmap units in the battle were the ones selected by you for the battle and no units reserve activated? I am not used to this map mod but I assume units like the German cavalry and the SS motorised brigade highlighted in blue are on reserve. In which case I think you were unlucky to get not one on map unit reserve activating.

Is it worth moving one of the units at Yalta one hex down the coast so that it can hug the last remaining Soviet unit not next to any Axis unit now? At least then you can guarantee no Soviet units would reserve activate?

Do you know the updated rules on reserve activation? The only rules I know are from the old manual which I know are wrong. It said the only units that could reserve activate were in the same HQ, directly assigned to the parent HQ of the HQ or to a sister HQ of an HQ. I know that is wrong as I have seen other units reserve activate too. But at least going by those manual rules the SS motorised brigade would not reserve activate because of 11th army attacking but only because another 1st Panzer army unit is in the combat. However would the odds of it reserve activating increase if there were more 1st panzer army units in the fight - are there in effect more roles in that case. I suppose this is a long winded way of asking would you get more reserve activation if all the units were in the same army? I am not sure of the answer. (and even if it was it still might not be worth all those points to do it.)
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RE: T53

Post by xhoel »

@Tele, in regards to your first point: Your expertise and advice about the air war is always welcome. I did not think of that. I was sure that having 150+ Finnish fighters with 0 fatigue so far in the rear would be enough to stop the Soviets but as we can clearly see it wasn't the case and I lost a lot of fighters that the Finnish can't replace. I will try to implement your advice next week, so thanks for that Tele :D

In regards to your second point: One of the units activated from the reserve. It was the motorized division. The Blue color denotes units on refit, green denotes units in Reserve. I had all units in the rear on reserve during the attacks and only the motorized division activated.

I think you are looking at the map at the start of the week. You should take a look at the one at the end of the week. The Soviets are with their backs pressed against the Black Sea and are in contact with our units so they cannot reserve activate.

AFAIK units can activate from the reserve as long as they have the MPs to do so and pass the rolls. But having them in the same HQ helps as it means it requires less MPs for them to activate. The Panzer HQ will be leaving for Rostov next week and the 2 Panzer Divisions, the Cavalry Division and the SS Mot. Brigade will be part of the 11th Army so that should help reserve activations.
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