Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Warspite**

Now that the Matrix Crew are back, can they address this 15 page debate?

Would you want to open this can of worms? [;)]

[Chris21wen]

I've not read the whole of this thread but I get the idea. It does seem restrictive to limit which planes you can upgrade to. I've only played the Rising Sun scenario. In it the Navy start with about the same number of few Zero and Claude units, but you can gradually upgrade the Claudes to Zero. On the other hand the Army has 2 x Oscar 1 units and hordes of useless Nates (I've finished the scenario and they didn't get one kill) which you can't upgrade because the upgrade to Oscar 2s. Why? I've got 60+ Oscar 1 replacements but I can't use them? It would't take the Japanese long to realise the Nate was bad, (Just like the Allies realised the quality of the Zero) and replace frontline units with better planes asap.

Now what happens to all those spare Nates? I know you can break them up and get resources/HI back? But late in the war you might be crying out for them or some other obsolete A/C to fill out your units. Why can't you pick which A/C you want from a list of available repacements, even if it mean using obsolete ones? DiDn't Pacwar work like that?

[steveh11Matrix]

ORIGINAL: Warspite**

Now that the Matrix Crew are back, can they address this 15 page debate?

This prospective customer is also waiting to see what they've got to say...

Steve.

[Warspite**]

bump

[WhoCares]

Would probably be nice to have a switch 'Historical upgrades/Free Upgrades', one without research and historical upgrade pathes, the other one with (almost) complete freedom (incl. downgrades; just sticking with service and class)

But then again, even in the historical setting - if we have two weak assault players, with Japan not winning early and the US screwing up his attack and leaving Japan the time and resources to build/keep a strong airforce - well, one reason was the bad play of the allied player, now let him pay for it...


Even though my nick might put me into the 'irrelevant' fan group per default, in this case I vote for the freedom to the players. [:'(]
You can always restrict yourself by house rules...

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: brisd

I don't think the game is broken as is. I just think that some of the upgrade paths should be reviewed and the designers make their reasons known. Research seems to be not very worthwhile because restraints were put in to keep people from abusing the system. Fair enough, now to hear from a designer. I support Mr Frag's arguments on research and production.

My sentiments exactly. I am only posting so that nobody gets the idea that all who are silent implicitly agree with the changes advocated by those who want to play around instead of PLAY. I suggest that silence generally means contentment with the game pretty much the way it is.

Put me in this camp too. If some of the upgrade paths need review so be it, but I like the game mechanics as is.

I realize upgrade can be changed with the editor but if it warrants a change, lets put it into the "official" scenarios.

[freeboy]

For the official scenarios do not expect those design team members to give up there perspective, but we as the community can edit this
I believe this is the answer to most of the grief expressed here... not to take sides..
Designers need to be respected, I am just glad it isn't hard coded

[Warspite**]

2ndACR, what do you think, will the new title get there attention? [:D]

[2ndACR]

Hope so. Of course they have probably heard about it anyway.

[Ron Saueracker]

Wooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww! Hate to say this but the "production question" was heavily discussed on the UV and WITP forums before WITP Alpha even got to the testers, and one of the overwhelming sentiments throughout was the inevitable "why nots" and "how comes" that would be generated if production was allowed. The pigeons have come home to roost. I was (along with many others) totally against production access by players as hindsight would always be flogged as "obvious" to the respective countries industrial leaders (the player) and older aircraft would be ignored. This is what is happening now as players are talking about thousands of Franks being in their force pools.

I think that players should be limited to whatever was produced and when (factories stay static) with production levels being the only thing players can alter (due to better or worse management of incoming resource volumes). Using hindsight to kickstart Frank production irks me, as would ignoring P-39s in favour of P-40s.

Just nix the whole production issue regarding aircraft models and screw research as it is causing more problems than any playability benefits. If this is done, I have no problem with allowing upgrades to "change on the fly" as it will only allow more flexible management of the aircraft the players have (ie. will alow players to easily ready squadrons with obsolete a/c for kamikaze duty).

I hate to say it, but "I told ya so!"[;)]

[Tankerace]

That sounds like the best solution to me Ron. Question is, will it happen?

[Ron Saueracker]

Couldn't say.

[2ndACR]

Okay guys, this is the reply I got from Joel Billings to a e-mail I sent to 2by3.

As you said, in a big game like this there are some compromises. I can't say what was the driving force on this decision, whether it was the time it would take to provide the interface, the unrealistic nature of allowing easy changes of planes in a non-historical manner, or if it was the desire to avoid the play balance implications of allowing an anything goes upgrade path. I remember that all three came into the equation at the time we were thinking about it. There were so many issues like this that we had to deal with, that I can't remember when or how the decision got made. It's possible that Mike Wood (the patch programmer) will at some point in the future change the system, but I would bet it's pretty low on the priority list given the work involved and the more important needs to fix obvious bugs and other items that come up. Mike and the Beta testers track the Matrix forums and if it's being discussed there, it's likely to come up at some point (if it hasn't already). Thanks for the feedback.

Joel Billings

[Hard Sarge]

You know guys, the thing that gets me the most about this kind of post, is how almost everybody thinks, the whole idea, is the player wants to get only the uber planes into place

I have posted that my wish, is to be able to use the Demon, and get my Mohawks/Hawk 75's into action (before the last patch, my best Aussie unit was a Hawk 75 squadron (strange the 43 to 46 campaign, the 77 RAAF flys Hawks, the 42 to 46 campaign, they fly KittyHawks ????)

but back to the point, I think most here, just want to be able to use what is in stock, not just the best and uberest planes

which also side with the make the player reseach everything in line before getting to the last planes
(I mean, you have to reseach each Zero type, before getting the last Zero)

HARD_Sarge

[Tankerace]

I completely Agree. I personally am fond of Hawk 75s (P-36s), and later in the war I would like the option to change my Helldivers to Dauntlesses (I hate Helldivers...so f***ing ugly). I honestly don't think anyone here wants the uber planes, because I believe that no one of that mentality would cough up 80 bucks to play the game.

I won't say for certain, but based on the reply 2ndACR got, I am willing to bet that now we are flogging a dead horse, and the system, at least for the forseeable future, will remain in place. Hopefully this isn't a game killer for anybody, as this is really a great game.

Too bad our requests have gone unheeded.

[Top Cat]

Actually I don't want more flexibility on upgrades so I can have the best and badest planes.

I want upgrade flexibility so I don't need a calculator, spreadsheet and/or editor to figure out want I need to produce based on knowing what reinforements are going to be coming in the future.

Is just simpler if the reinforement squadrons took the planes that you were producing, like in real life.

Don't think the Japanese researched, say the Tojo because they knew there were Tojo pilots in the
pipeline. That'd be the tail wagging the dog.

More likely the pilots said we're getting creamed by the Americans, give us a better plane and we'll fly it.

So basically I want the flexibilty because it's simpler. I've noticed that a large number of the threads around here are people going "I don't know what planes to produce..." This is in large part because of the hard coded upgrade path.

Cheers
Top Cat

Cheers
Top Cat

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Well, the problem is - if you play the japanese (or the allies, it really makes no difference) until mid/late43... achive a surplus of planes and economy cause YOU did better as historical (or worser - if i speak about the allies and me ) and a better plane would improve my situation, but i can´t use it even if i have it in the pool... that is a game stopper....

i just can´t understood why it is so important to hold the historical line here... we do not know how "they" had reacted in a different situation...

As the japanese you can change your input in economy... you can say what is the priority... (like hold on yamato and mushashi and shinano and also the shipyard points and give it to the air industry) but if you manage sucsessfully to improve your situation, you can´t do anything with em...

And also, for the allied side, the same stupid situation (honestly, here it is only important if you are worser as historically), maybe you have 200 spits but you damned hurricanes need the thunderboldII... sure, if you have enough hurricanes, this maybe smart (cause of fb to fb)... but if your hurricane pool is empty and you could have 2 squad with spits to defend yourself against the evil yellow enemies... you see, same situation (or with bombers... )

It hurt the allied side not so much as the japanese, but important is - you will be hurt late in the war and that means late in the game.

I think this is the huge problem.... you can´t fix it later on, only now at the beginning of the game

So many players want a matrix-solution (i suggested a playerconform house rules method -even if not offically certificated)

If "we" play only adopted campagins, the programmer maybe will accept our wishes....

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Sorry - who want to cheat the game ? I think the guys who want to cheat are stupid idiots....

if the game allows the direct upgrade to hell, then this should be fixed. Untill a few days (autoreplacemt trick) i even did not know that you can upgrade from a to c without having b... so why not change this and then let em circle.... in the row.
So i can use nates if i want (to train) cause they will become worthless later on and instead start the production of the "next" plane on the time table...

sure, it should be "if you want d you have to develop b and c before....

perfectly would be a "if you want to research you have to improve the next plane, all other improvements do not work"...

so, nobody can develop the superplane in 1943 instead of 1945... and so everybody is forced to develop the next plane

But in the moment, i prefer the editor and a row... and at last 50 planes from all types in the pool (no autoupgrade with me) so i can use em at will.... oh, and i do not cheat to myself...

if we use houserules, why not also this way ?
Really, all hindsight in the game and it is NOT a historical correct game after turn one (or before ! if you use the option!)
so i want to use any plane i have at my will (as long as it is in the row (army/navy and bomber/fighter)...

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Sorry - that is only your opinion.

for the japanese player, it is a game stopper after Spring 43 (if he did better as historically)
if he was good, he could use better planes, but this is forbidden (mostly by a strange automatic upgrade system...)

for the allies, i agree - here it is not so important.
But just imagine, you play the japanese, kicked your allied counterpart, could now stand against his bunch of better fighters by (advanced) own fighters but you have to sit down and let you be slaugtered... now tell me, is this fun ?

Do you think more than a few players would stay in the game ? I would love to fight it out - but not the "historical" way with a bad production system, but with the best i can use... and if i can be better as historically, i want to let the allies pay.
i still loose, but as the player i want to let him bleed.

This IS a game stopper if i did anything to bring me in this situation but can´t do a thing about it cause of "it is not historically"...

i allways said i dislike this idea for the allies too...
the game needs to be updated, this "bug" should be elliminated. Change the r&d (elliminate it if you want), but if i produce enough planes from one kind and i want to switch the planes, let me do so.

[Hard Sarge]

You know, even if the players were to Game the game and bring in the uber planes (not talking the Shinden), is that really that bad or going to upset the game balance that badly ?

don't know how much Alt and Climb really effects the game system, so will go with some basic stats

Ocscar Ib
speed 308
Mvr 35
Dr 23
guns 4

Ocsar II
329
34
24
6

Tojo
376 nice increase
32
28
12 not really a good trade, better speed and guns though

Tony
368
32
29
14 that may be the better plane

Frank Ia
392
35
30
14 ah, almost a weak Allied plane

George
363
36
30
16

unless these are coming out in 42, in numbers large enough to mass change units, still not a big deal

the Frank and George will tear up P40's and below, but HellCats, F4U4, 47 D's and 51's will still eat them up (main Allied fighters, still out Mrv, Dr and gun all of them)

and in my game (42 to 46 campaign, 9-25-42) I got enough Spit V squadrons in China (saveing some pool planes, or I could have a few more squadrons) to handle all of the China fighters if they went to Franks and Georges (the 23rd FG may not do as well as it is now, but it is eating up the Tony unit it is faceing)

and if I did run into a Unit that I couldn't handle in the air, shame on me, if I let it get into the air, if I can't moonscape his runways and hangers, oh well

so, I don't see where the great unbalancer is at

HARD_Sarge

Shinden, should be HARD coded to be a late model plane no matter how much reseach is applied