Campaign For North Africa 40D-43

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: Olorin

The British should have sent 20 divisions to Greece or none at all.

Since they lacked that force, the meager force that was sent was not an assistance at all, it simply hastened the deutsch decision to invade, because the reason for the invasion was the British presence in Greece.

Terrible decision for both nations.

Kalispera,

Etsi, re. It was indeed one of the reasons for 'Operation Marita'; Churchill deploying more Brits down there, but let's not forget the 'blunder' of Mussolini when Italy invaded your country in October 1940. The factors for the, shall we say, intervention in Yugoslavia and Greece at the same time was because of the Yugoslavs 'refusal' to join the Ti-pact and the involvement of the Brits to reinforce troops in Greece. And yes... it was a tragedy for the people there.

P.S. You do know the story of Ioannis Rallis, I take it?

Just my 2p...

Klink, Oberst

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Olorin

The British should have sent 20 divisions to Greece or none at all.

Since they lacked that force, the meager force that was sent was not an assistance at all, it simply hastened the deutsch decision to invade, because the reason for the invasion was the British presence in Greece.

Terrible decision for both nations.

warspite1

Agreed the decision was bad, but I can't believe it hastened the German intervention. Hitler simply could not afford a threat to Ploesti.

So let's say the military geniuses (that seemed to totally forget what happened in Norway and France) decide to concentrate on kicking Italy out of Tripolitania and forget Greece. Was there a good chance that the British would have succeeded? I think so - or at least forced the Italians to rush reinforcements to Libya, rather than Albania.

Thus the day of decision on the Eastern Front draws near and the Greeks are well on their way to taking Albania. With Crete in Greek hands, the threat to Ploesti was real from an RAF deployment there - regardless of British troop involvement on the Greek mainland or not.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Zorch



I was referring to your game, not to real life. [;)]
I agree the Greek adventure was a mistake, in real life.

warspite1

Soz old fruit, you were replying to the previous poster, who as far as I could tell was talking about real life.

However, I still disagree with you [;)]

Although I don't know how this game plays out, I know that the Germans get a victory bonus for taking Tobruk. Moreover in real life Rommel couldn't move on Egypt without taking Tobruk. I assume the supply rules adequately reflect this (and I base my answer on that assumption).

I'm not saying abandon Tobruk - just don't go past Gazala with major forces.

warspite1

You may be right, but it doesn't feel right giving the Axis free lunches. If realistic then they will feel every tank loss. Personally I think my plan was right - but its execution was what is to be expected from a total wargaming **** ***....

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Olorin

The British should have sent 20 divisions to Greece or none at all.

Since they lacked that force, the meager force that was sent was not an assistance at all, it simply hastened the deutsch decision to invade, because the reason for the invasion was the British presence in Greece.

Terrible decision for both nations.

warspite1

Agreed the decision was bad, but I can't believe it hastened the German intervention. Hitler simply could not afford a threat to Ploesti.

So let's say the military geniuses (that seemed to totally forget what happened in Norway and France) decide to concentrate on kicking Italy out of Tripolitania and forget Greece. Was there a good chance that the British would have succeeded? I think so - or at least forced the Italians to rush reinforcements to Libya, rather than Albania.

Thus the day of decision on the Eastern Front draws near and the Greeks are well on their way to taking Albania. With Crete in Greek hands, the threat to Ploesti was real from an RAF deployment there - regardless of British troop involvement on the Greek mainland or not.

The Hitler of 1938 would have summoned the Greek and Italian ambassadors, and in his most threatening voice, dictated a peace treaty to them. He would reduce Athens to rubble if the Geeks refused. And cutoff all aid to Mussolini if he balked. For good measure he would tell the Greeks to kick all British out of the country (no air bases on Crete). Mussolini would have to accept his humiliation, as he realized his forces were losing and his economy dependent on Germany.
I could see Hitler attacking Yugoslavia anyway; but that wouldn't delay Barbarossa.

[warspite1]

I think this ignores the relationship between the two twats. After Mussolini gave Hitler a free pass over Austria, Hitler said he would never forget it - and he didn't.

I can't see how Hitler could humiliate the Italians like that and still expect Mussolini's regime to survive. Anything that wouldn't humiliate Il Duce would not be acceptable to Greece who, after all were well inside Albania, having cleared Italians off their soil.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think this ignores the relationship between the two twats. After Mussolini gave Hitler a free pass over Austria, Hitler said he would never forget it - and he didn't.

I can't see how Hitler could humiliate the Italians like that and still expect Mussolini's regime to survive. Anything that wouldn't humiliate Il Duce would not be acceptable to Greece who, after all were well inside Albania, having cleared Italians off their soil.

The Greeks could be intimidated.
Mussolini was a pain to Hitler, who would relish a chance to show him who's boss. Their relationship was way past the Brenner Pass days. I doubt Mussolini would have fallen. Remember how much it took before the King & Badaglio deposed him in September 1943. But Hitler didn't even try this approach...a sign of his declining mental abilities, or overconfidence?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think this ignores the relationship between the two twats. After Mussolini gave Hitler a free pass over Austria, Hitler said he would never forget it - and he didn't.

I can't see how Hitler could humiliate the Italians like that and still expect Mussolini's regime to survive. Anything that wouldn't humiliate Il Duce would not be acceptable to Greece who, after all were well inside Albania, having cleared Italians off their soil.

The Greeks could be intimidated.
Mussolini was a pain to Hitler, who would relish a chance to show him who's boss. Their relationship was way past the Brenner Pass days. I doubt Mussolini would have fallen. Remember how much it took before the King & Badaglio deposed him in September 1943. But Hitler didn't even try this approach...a sign of his declining mental abilities, or overconfidence?

warspite1

I think we'll agree to disagree on that. Yes Italy was a pain to Hitler because that total buffoon Mussolini dragged them into a war they were totally unprepared for. But forcing Italy to sign a peace treaty with the Greeks, having lost thousands upon thousands of men for no reason?

Even if Mussolini survived such a slap, his authority would have been irreparably damaged and his survival would be a constant unknown from there on in. In a worst case for Hitler, Mussolini would have faced a revolt and, having stirred up trouble in the Mediterranean theatre, the risk was Italy would suddenly exit stage left leaving the CW masters of the Middle Sea and presenting the British with an easy victory.

The Greeks could be intimidated? Yes, Mussolini thought that too.....

[warspite1]

Turn 40 - RAF, RAAF and FF
26th April 1941

Meanwhile back at the ranch.....I need to go through what I actually have left after that pretty monstrous turn.....

I'll make a start with the air forces.

The CW seem to have been given two Blenheim units - which have been placed in Tobruk!!! Presumably these are the two units that were destroyed a few turns back but have been reconstituted as their status is untried. Similarly a Blenheim unit has appeared at Fort Capuzzo with the same status.

[warspite1]

Turn 40 - RAF, RAAF and FF
26th April 1941

So let's put a little flesh on the bones. First things first, the Blenheim squadrons have been ordered out of Tobruk. The 12 available squadrons are placed in three locations - Bardia, Sidi Barrani and Mersah Matruh - two squadrons of fighters and two of bombers at each airbase. Nothing will be placed west of Bardia from here on in.

The CW air force situation is now as follows. All units at or near full strength, but 50% of the squadrons are untried:

So desperate is the situation that all units - regardless of status - are put on alert - fighters = air superiority - bombers = combat support

[warspite1]

Turn 40
26th April 1941

Dire Straits....

A glance at the overall position following initial movement - to be followed by a drill down into each pocket.

[warspite1]

Turn 40 - 1. Tobruk
26th April 1941

The defences of Tobruk are bolstered by the stragglers that have come in from the west. One regiment of much needed heavy AA failed to make it and the gunners are caught out in the open east of Gazala.

In Tobruk, five battalions now man the eastern zone, while only two are available to the west. The Staffordshire battalion is ordered up to the line, leaving two battalions to guard the western approaches. The reserves consist of just one Polish cavalry regiment....

Both battalions of the 5th Panzer Regiment are spotted forming part of the cordon around the port.

Two regiments of artillery are ordered to fire on the German positions, along with the RN. Most of artillery however is recovering from their exertions of just getting to Tobruk.....

[warspite1]

Turn 40 - 2. Gabr Saleh
26th April 1941

The stunning defeat of the 3rd Motor Brigade means that Neame has little choice but to throw in all available reserves from Bardia and the surrounding area almost regardless of their supply and readiness situation.

The call goes out - "if its got a barrel and there is a spare shell lying around, fire the bloody thing". The Australian artillery concentrates on the two surrounded units - which includes the Ariete Divisional HQ, while the British artillery to the west, concentrate on the Bersaglieri battalion.

[warspite1]

Turn 40 - 3. Knightsbridge + 4. Bir Hachem
26th April 1941

The situation of the British armour is dire. The previous attack was devastating and the individual units have become completely separated from their parent units and divisional HQ's.

One example is the 3rd Armoured Brigade HQ, which makes contact with the 11th Hussars - only thing is they are from completely different divisions....

As a sign of how bad things are, the 3rd Hussars are down to just 2 tanks, while the 5th RTR have 10....

The units here have been ordered to sit tight and await developments elsewhere...

[warspite1]

Turn 40 - 5. Rotunda Segnali
26th April 1941

The situation here, slightly to the west, is just as bad and these units too are told to do nothing at present....

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn 40 - 2. Gabr Saleh
26th April 1941

The stunning defeat of the 3rd Motor Brigade means that Neame has little choice but to throw in all available reserves from Bardia and the surrounding area almost regardless of their supply and readiness situation.

The call goes out - "if its got a barrel and there is a spare shell lying around, fire the bloody thing". The Australian artillery concentrates on the two surrounded units - which includes the Ariete Divisional HQ, while the British artillery to the west, concentrate on the Bersaglieri battalion.

Baldrick!

[warspite1]

Turn 40 - 6. Bir Tengeder
26th April 1941

The Australians, without much in the way of transport, have moved as far as they can, its simply a case of seeing how many losses they take - or will the British hold the Italians back long enough to allow them to get away?

[warspite1]

Turn 40
26th April 1941

There are five bombardments to be carried out:

1. At Gabr Saleh the Australian Field Artillery concentrates on the Ariete HQ and causes some minor damage
2. Polish artillery at Tobruk cause more damage (13%) to the besieging Germans.
3. Back to Gabr Saleh and the numbers rise (16% damage is caused by the Indian artillery against the Italian motorised infantry).
4. The heaviest bombardment is by the remainder of the Australian Field Artillery against the Italian AA units in the east of the pocket.
5. Back to Tobruk and a healthy 24% losses are meted out by the RN. Sadly only one tanks is destroyed.

The CW then follow up the bombardments as follows:

[warspite1]

Turn 40
26th April 1941

Rats!

[warspite1]

Turn 40
26th April 1941

A summary of the brief CW turn....

[warspite1]

Turn 40 - Axis Turn
26th April 1941

The Axis are on the march. Even before the combat rounds being two units are destroyed. Its going to be a long turn.....

..... and it was a long turn [:(]