AI for MWiF - Commonwealth

[paulderynck]

It could easily be Japan as well. If you played the game a bit you'd know that often USSR DoWs Persia and that often it aligns with Japan...

[Extraneous]

Perhaps you should see my post in 2004 ~ Mziln proposes the USSR conquer Persia

Patrice and I were both looking at this and exchanging strategies at the time.


And I still say the USSR can take out Persia and then it would no longer be aligned or controlled by Japan. Even if Japan DoW's the USSR as you had suggested.

[Extraneous]

Lately I have been looking at the proposed set an up of the CW CP's and noticed several terminate in the Bay of Biscay.

You might want to rethink these as they would allow the CP's to be in range of Axis air attacks after France falls.


By using Faeros Gap you can rail 15 resources/oil from Glasgow, Liverpool, and Barrow to CW factories and it's beyond the range of air attacks. This would also put Scapa Flow in supply

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Perhaps you should see my post in 2004 ~ Mziln proposes the USSR conquer Persia

Patrice and I were both looking at this and exchanging strategies at the time.


And I still say the USSR can take out Persia and then it would no longer be aligned or controlled by Japan. Even if Japan DoW's the USSR as you had suggested.

Yes that may be true but as was pointed out to me recently, this is the AI thread, so all possibilities must be included. Thus it is no certainty that "the other power would be Italy".

[brian brian]

Persia has been well covered in the Russian thread over the years (I vote no Allied DOW, but do love a Japanese one, unless the Euro-Axis is serious about attacking the eastern Med). If the Allies feel they MUST have the place, their best move is to use a joint Anglo-Russian approach. (as in real life ironically, though for different reasons as in real life Japan could never have sustained activity there). Even that might not keep a crafty Japanese player out completely. I look forward to the new map scale implications on those decisions.


the Bay of Biscay starts out one sea-box farther from the Kriegsmarine and is thus the better choice for the initial convoys. when France falls the CW has to execute a somewhat delicate maneuver of moving the convoys to the Faeroes Gap sea zone, but this is not all that hard to do using HQs (frequently Alexander's first mission before departing the UK) their at-start ATR, and perhaps a spare bit of naval lift not otherwise shuttling troops around the world.

[composer99]

Agreed with brian brian: Bay of Biscay begins 1939 games further from German naval power than Faeroes' Gap, which makes a big (10%) difference in Germany's chances of finding the convoys.

I would differ with him in terms of timing the transfer: IMO the time to perform the shift of convoys is just after the tipping point in the battle for France, when Germany still needs to call a few land impulses to capture Paris (or swarm the French countryside in an attempt to conquer France) and the German fleets (sub & surface) have yet to relocate to the French Atlantic ports.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
When France falls the CW has to execute a somewhat delicate maneuver of moving the convoys to the Faeroes Gap sea zone, but this is not all that hard to do using HQs (frequently Alexander's first mission before departing the UK) their at-start ATR, and perhaps a spare bit of naval lift not otherwise shuttling troops around the world.

I feel I'm missing something here so could you be more specific as to how this is done?

[composer99]

Basically, some time, usually in mid-1940, the Commonwealth will undertake a couple of impulses in one turn to move their convoy line in the Bay of Biscay (10-15 cp) to the Faeroes' Gap.

Typically, in one impulse most, or all, the convoys will return to, say, Liverpool, where they will be disorganized. The CW will then use any HQs on hand (often HQ-I Alexander as noted) and other reorganization potential (e.g. the at-start ATR, any spare TRS units) to reorganize some or all of these convoys. This is usually a naval impulse to maximize reorg potential.

In a subsequent impulse, whether a naval or a combined, the convoys get sent out to sea, with escorts (one assumes) to the Faeroes Gap.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Agreed with brian brian: Bay of Biscay begins 1939 games further from German naval power than Faeroes' Gap, which makes a big (10%) difference in Germany's chances of finding the convoys.

I would differ with him in terms of timing the transfer: IMO the time to perform the shift of convoys is just after the tipping point in the battle for France, when Germany still needs to call a few land impulses to capture Paris (or swarm the French countryside in an attempt to conquer France) and the German fleets (sub & surface) have yet to relocate to the French Atlantic ports.

20% if you make the ill-advised play of having more than 10 CPs in the Faroes.

[Extraneous]

Since Naval movement restrictions apply and CP's cannot stay at sea what about “CP used” markers?

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
11.4 Naval movement

INTO AND OUT OF PORT
When you move a unit out of a port, you must spend its first point to move it into a surrounding sea area (e.g. naval units in Amsterdam must move directly into the North Sea).

There are three special cases:
Although Kiel is a coastal hex on the Baltic Sea; you can move naval units directly to Kiel from the North Sea and vice versa.
Although Suez is a coastal hex on the Red Sea; you can move naval units directly to Suez from the Eastern Mediterranean and vice versa.
Although Panama City is a coastal hex on the Gulf of Mexico, you can move naval units directly to Panama from the Caribbean, and vice versa provided the Panama Canal is not closed to you.

Similarly, a naval unit can only move into a port from the surrounding sea area. It could continue moving but, if it ends the naval move in port, turn it face down (for convoy points, use a “CP used” marker instead).

[composer99]

Re: #470:

I don't follow. How does that relate to shifting convoy lines from Bay of Biscay to Faeroes' Gap?

The convoy points start at sea in Bay of Biscay in any given impulse, naval move to port, become disorganized as a result, get reorganized during the pertinent step, and naval move back out to sea during a future impulse.

Why would 'CP used' markers be required for MWiF?

I do not understand this line:

and CP's cannot stay at sea

Are you suggesting that your reading of the rules indicates CP don't stay at sea at all? I assume I am misunderstanding you here.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Re: #469:

I don't follow. How does that relate to shifting convoy lines from Bay of Biscay to Faeroes' Gap?

The convoy points start at sea in Bay of Biscay in any given impulse, naval move to port, become disorganized as a result, get reorganized during the pertinent step, and naval move back out to sea during a future impulse.

Why would 'CP used' markers be required for MWiF?

I do not understand this line:

and CP's cannot stay at sea

Are you suggesting that your reading of the rules indicates CP don't stay at sea at all? I assume I am misunderstanding you here.

Hay 'CP used' markers are in the rules.


Yup, sorry I wasn't clear on what I meant by "stay at sea".

CP's cannot "stay at sea" because it would have to be at least in the 1 sea-box. In order to "stay at sea" you have to shift down one sea-box.


To me this reads CP's when at sea are in the 0 sea-box until they enter port in the 13.4 Return to base phase.

If they do return to base, they won’t be able to convoy resources in the production step of that turn.


How do you read it?

ORIGINAL: ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
13.4 Return to base

Units at sea can return to base during this step. If they do, they will be available to sail again in the next turn. Those that stay at sea will only be able to stay in the sea-box next turn or sail back to a port.

Units may return to base during naval movement, after aborting from combat and during this step. You return units to base like a normal naval move except in reverse.

Each unit returning to base is limited by its movement allowance (reduced for the sea-box section it is occupying) and by its range.

A unit MUST return to base during this step if it is:
• any unit (except convoy points) of a NEUTRAL major power; or
• a TRS with a cargo on board; or
• any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.

Any other of your units can return to base if you like. Convoy points can stay at sea even if they are in the 0 section. If they do return to base, they won’t be able to convoy resources in the production step of this turn.

Both sides (side with initiative first) must decide which units to return to base and which to keep at sea.

If you decide to keep a unit at sea, you must immediately move it into the next lower section of the sea-box. If you decide to return it to base, move it into the surrounding sea area but, for reference, keep it next to the sea-box section it came from.

After both sides make these decisions, units return to base (active side first). They can be intercepted (see 11.4.6) but only by units staying at sea. Only the intercepted units, units staying at sea and aircraft that fly naval interception can take part in an interception combat.

If intercepted, you must attempt to fight through from the ‘0’ box.


11.4 Naval movement
HOW DOES A UNIT PATROL?
When a naval unit stops in a sea area, it is patrolling. To show this, you must put it into that area’s sea-box. You can put it in any section of the sea-box, which has a (unmodified) search number less than or equal to the unit’s unused MOVEMENT ALLOWANCE. [This is different from the system used for naval air missions.]

stay at sea as in
A unit can only be in one section of a sea-box at a time. Other units could be in the same or different sections of the sea-box.

Convoy points can only ‘patrol’ in the 0 section of the sea-box, even if they have unused movement points.

If a unit started its naval move out of supply (see 2.4.2 Tracing supply), turn it facedown when it reaches a sea-box section.

[brian brian]

11.4.2 Moving Naval Units


Convoy points can only ‘patrol’ in the 0 section of the sea-box, even if they have unused movement points.





I suggest punching out the counters and moving them around on the map a lot.

[brian brian]

and:

A unit MUST return to base during this step if it is:
• any unit (except convoy points) of a NEUTRAL major power; or
• a TRS with a cargo on board; or
• any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

and:

A unit MUST return to base during this step if it is:
• any unit (except convoy points) of a NEUTRAL major power; or
• a TRS with a cargo on board; or
• any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.

And the next paragraph is...

Convoy points can stay at sea even if they are in the 0 section.

If they do return to base, they won’t be able to convoy resources in the production step of this turn.

[composer99]

The very rule you cite contains the key to understanding:

A unit MUST return to base during this step if it is:
[...]
• any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.

Convoy points (and hence tankers if using that optional) are exempt from the requirement to return to base at the end of the turn if they are in the 0 box. (Indeed, convoy points may never be placed in any box but the 0 box.)

[brian brian]

if they return to base during the turn, they can be re-organized and move back out to sea in a subsequent impulse.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
13.4 Return to base

Units at sea can return to base during this step. If they do, they will be available to sail again in the next turn. Those that stay at sea will only be able to stay in the sea-box next turn or sail back to a port.

Units may return to base during naval movement, after aborting from combat and during this step. You return units to base like a normal naval move except in reverse.

Each unit returning to base is limited by its movement allowance (reduced for the sea-box section it is occupying) and by its range.

A unit MUST return to base during this step if it is:
• any unit (except convoy points) of a NEUTRAL major power; or
• a TRS with a cargo on board; or
• any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.

Any other of your units can return to base if you like. Convoy points can stay at sea even if they are in the 0 section. If they do return to base, they won’t be able to convoy resources in the production step of this turn.

Both sides (side with initiative first) must decide which units to return to base and which to keep at sea.

If you decide to keep a unit at sea, you must immediately move it into the next lower section of the sea-box. If you decide to return it to base, move it into the surrounding sea area but, for reference, keep it next to the sea-box section it came from.

After both sides make these decisions, units return to base (active side first). They can be intercepted (see 11.4.6) but only by units staying at sea. Only the intercepted units, units staying at sea and aircraft that fly naval interception can take part in an interception combat.

If intercepted, you must attempt to fight through from the ‘0’ box.

All Naval units (including CP's) that do not choose to stay at sea or cannot stay at sea must return to base.

You cannot stay at sea in a sea zone then move to a new sea zone and stay at sea without returning to base.

Yes, tankers are handled just like CP's.

[brian brian]

I'm not sure why, but one more time:

11.4.1 Definition of ‘naval move’

Each group of units you move is called a task force. A task force can contain any number of surface naval units or any number of SUBs. You can’t have surface naval units and SUBs in the same task force.
You make 1 “naval move” with surface naval units every time you:

(a) move a task force of face-up surface naval units (plus, of course, any units they are transporting) from one port, to any one destination (either to one other port or to the same section of a sea-box); or
(b) move a task force of face-up surface naval units from one section directly to one lower section of the same sea-box; or

(c) return a task force of face-up surface naval units from one section of a sea-box to one port (see 13.4).




Jul/Aug 1940 Allied Impulse 1. CW picks naval impulse type. All CW CP in the Bay of Biscay return to base in Liverpool. HQ-Alexander and ATR in UK re-organize 10 of them. Allied Impulse 2. CW picks Naval or Combined impulse. All organized CP in Liverpool move out to Faeroes Gap. At end-of-turn they stay there and deliver resources to the UK and the UK builds units.

13.4 only applies to CPs that return to base during the Return to Base step at the end of the turn. It's not complicated.



seriously just play the game with actual counters rather than imaginary counters while reading the rules

[Extraneous]

I'm not saying you can't return to base and then reorg and then move the CP's.

What I'm saying is, "If they do return to base, they won’t be able to convoy resources in the production step of this turn".

As (C) says see 13.4 Return to base.