The ONLY goal for an invasion of India should be to conquer all of India. At a push you might settle for allowing the enemy a foothold at Karachi as per some HRs.
If you invade India for any other reason ( e.g. cutting off Burma ) then it is the acme of miscalculation.
Of course that would be a desirable goal, and might win the contest, but do you really mean to say that no strategic value would be gained by destroying 200-300K Allied troops (plus assorted other booty) and delaying any Allied attack through Burma by a year and cutting off all overland supply to China for another 12-18 mos.
It seems to me you could make the same argument about seizing islands in the Pacific without capturing Hawaii or San Francisco.
My point was that if Northeastern India is not cut off then almost nothing is gained.
The latest version of Big B's mod has the deck armor of the Japanese CAs at 50 with the penetration value of 500lb GP bombs set at 51. John found that out over in the Society Islands. The number of BBs out of commission due to the failed attempt to bombard Singapore has not helped their situation.
In hindsight, I'm starting to wonder if India was that important, then why was 4 CVs left in the Pacific along with those damaged BBs?? That's a lot of firepower MIA.
Mandrake, I see your point and its validity but I feel constrained to point out that if you bring sufficient Japanese troops to take out the 300,000 Allied troops you talk about and so crush the Allied army that they will not be able to move on Burma for a full year ( and let's forget about the attrition their air force will exert throughout 1942 if Allied ground troops hang on to the belt buckle of Japanese ground troops ) then I would argue that the Japanese player, if he can achieve those goals MUST have brought enough to actually take India ( 300,000 troops = 10 division equivalents = 3,000 AV ).
If the Japanese can wipe out ten divisions of troops then they have enough to take all of India and so settling for the lesser goal of a "spoiling attack" when they have the opportunity for a decisive strategic victory would, indeed, IMO be a major failure.
Sure killing 300,00 Allied troops would be worthwhile BUT if you can do that then you can take India and if you CAN take India and you have troops ashore then it would be foolish in the extreme not to do so.
Personally I question the validity of Vizgapatam as a landing base precisely because it lends itself so much to Allied counter-attack. I also question the overall strategic goal of the invasion. It appears that the intent was not to take all of India - unless I'm missing something - but if the intent isn't to take all of India then just what that is worthwhile can be achieved on the cheap?
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Their plan IS to take all of India; and that includes wiping out the Allied army in Burma/NE India.
Viz was a good place to start - lightly defended, out of range of large Allied air bases, good roads permitting exploitation into the interior, and quick access to the sector from which the Allies can mount the strongest counterattack (NE India). Viz is also more sheltered from RN raids than would be a base like Trivandrum and Pangim.
The Japanese are ashore in good shape, but a lack of accurate intel and recon is vexxing them - they know they OUGHT to be able to move and brush aside Allied opposition, but fog of war is stymiing them. If they can take Raingpur and threaten Cuttack's flank, and at the same time have a large enough force to threaten a direct attack on Cuttack, AND drop paratroops on some interior bases the threaten the Allied line of supply and reinforcements, they should be in good shape.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Hi Guys. I had a busy day and didn't get much done in either Dan's game or this one. Brad has a heavy work day too. We only just got a turn done today.
Dan and Nemo are both correct in their views of our offensive. Initially when we were discussing the IDEA of the invasion I saw it as a spoiling attack to do exactly what has been described above. As we got more input and Brad and got to talking the Invasion took on a far bigger proportion of planning. Scale and scope changed from spoiling to all-out assault. The goal is to take India---period. In doing this we want large-scale surrenders that will cripple ANY form of counter-offensive.
Brad has elected to reinforce and strengthen the northern drive on Raipur and the western attack towards Madras. The Allies tried a deliberate attack against the 2 TK Reg at Raipur and COULD NOT drive them out! They got a 1-1 but that is it. Tomorrow will see another TK Reg and Mortar Btn arrive to strengthen the troops. As soon as an Inf Div gets there we WILL take the hex.
The Paratroopers are going to be used to break open the dam. There are several targets that are EMPTY: Jamshedpur, Trivandrum, and Nagpur. The 1st and 3rd are logical choices for a drop.
We are beginning to win the battle in the air. Over Viza today came a strike of 33 P-40 (AVG) 16 B-17 14 Bombers they were met by 55 Fighters (Oscar/Zero/Tojo). The Japanese lost 7 Fighters in the air and 8 on the ground but took out 15 P-40 and a Bomber. What is important is that ALL the Birt/Dutch Bombers turned back without dropping their bombs. The American B-17 were heavily damaged and their morale cannot be much better. AF construction jump nearly 30% in one day. The 31st/1st should see the AF go to Lvl-4 and then we are in business...
The Allies have been trying to use their light forces CL--DD to intervene. They paid for it today with Diamond Harbor getting hit by 35 Zero and 26 Betty (no CAP) and then a large strike of 52 Betty decisively sank CL's Enterprise and Emerald.
Nearly ALL Allied airpower is concentrated at Madras and Hyderabad. It needs to be proven to them that they cannot do this without loss. Scratch the CLs today and tomorrow shall see 4 Betty Daitai fly from Port Blair (AF-3) to hit the damaged ships at Trincomalee. If they refuse to spread their fighters out then we'll hit Columbo the next day.
As Michael mentioned, our BBs are getting repaired at Singapore and Soerabaja. Two of them have upgraded and should be available in about 10 days. Another pair will be ready within a week or so after that. Those BBs will truly help Brad out and provide some solid punch that is currently lacking.
Someone asked about the 4 CVs in the SE Pac NOT being in the IO??!! There are currently 3 CV, 4 CVL, and 2 CVE in the IO Theatre of Operations. It is one thing to commit to an Operation and quite another to leave the ENTIRE Pacific unprotected. I think it has been well demonstrated that we have been able to keep the Allies off-balance to this point in the war by the very dispersion that is being called into question. I am highly nervous about the balance of the British Fleet moving to Sydney. If they combine with the American CVs...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
You guys must be pretty sure of yourselves - compromising your operational security by putting the target of your ops in your subject line - you know that can be seen from outside your thread!
[:)]
WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
The air battle has shifted from the skies over Viza to the ground at hex 21,20. Multiple strikes by both sides are coming into the hex striking at the ground forces.
Attachments
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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Score
Japan 16,597 (Up 2,297)
Allies 5,274 (Up 386)
The month of March saw action totally focus into two major areas. The invasion of India dominates all the action but Tonga and the Pago Pago area were all taken too. The New Zealand Campaign saw a mostly Japanese build-up on the North Island.
Ships Sunk
Japan 86—652 VP (Up 143)—31 Losses for March: 11 AK, 10 AP, 1 TK, 4 MSW, 2 PG, and 3 SS (2 I-Boats and an Ro-)
Total Losses: 2 CL, 4 DD, and 7 SS (5 I-Boats and 2 Ro-)
Our losses picked up with the landings at Pago Pago and Vivagapatam. Considering the scale and scope of our operations these losses are still REALLY light.
Allies 254---2,321 VP (Up 256)---Allies lost 42 Ships in March. Exact sinkings were: CLs Emerald and Enterprise, 8 AK, 2 AP, 3 MSW, 16 PT, 4 ML, and a fantastic 8 SS (5 US, 1 Dutch, and 2 S-Boats)
Total Warship Losses are: 2BB West Virginia and Oklahoma, 3 CA, 7 CL, 19 DD, 40 PT, and 23 SS (16 Fleet and 7 S-Boat)
Sinkings dropped off and SHOULD have been much higher. The numerous (at least 4 or 5) aborted launches against Columbo, Trivandrum, and Sydney by our Carriers were very disappointing. I expect to see the sinkings rise dramatically now that our CVs are freed up from protecting Landing Forces.
Manchukuo Garrison---8,130---(8,000 Needed)---Down 640
Political Points---719
Units Transferred:
Engineering Regiment
13th Independent Brigade
Nearly all of Manchuria’s Bombers
Industrial Report
Supply 2,236,914 UP 205,834
Fuel 3,095,684 Down 155,000
Manpower 822 (127,792) UP 16,180
Heavy Industry 13,558 (5,229) HI Up 5 but Reserve dropped 19,000
Resources 17,863 (1,506,955) Down 61,950
Oil 2,264 (1,188,742) Up 61 Centers
Brad’s excellent work is shown in the fact that we grew our supply by 200,000! With everything we’re doing to see growth is amazing. Everything else looks pretty good for the moment.
Shipyards
Naval 1,356 (15) Expanded 25 Points of Yards
Merchant 946 (4,097)
Repair 755 Expanded Repair Yards by 48.
Will continue to expand Repair Yards at Shanghai, Manila, Hong Kong, Cebu, Singapore, and Soerabaja as soon as we have them (and supply allows).
Carriers
Hiyo 5 Days (Accel)
Taiho 704 Days
CVL Ryuho 144 Days (Accel)
Armaments are stockpiling well and we have a stockpile beginning with vehicles.
Aircraft
Engines 1,732
Assembly 929 + (310-Rd)
Engines expand 113 and production climbs only but research takes a solid jump by over 22. We had A6M3 begin April 1st so production grew 73 and research dropped correspondingly.
Engine Production
Type Producing---Need---Stockpile
Mitsubishi 865—692—1090
Nakajima 746(13)---627---111
Kawasaki 100---0---406
Aichi 20---0---75
All engines are now stockpiling.
Plane Production
Fighters Planes/Month (in Pool)
Nate 0 (258)
Claude 0 (243)
A6M2 167 (165)
A6M3 72 (0) Just started production.
A6M3a 0-Rd 11/42
Oscar 132 (7)
Oscar IIa 12-Rd 11/42
Tojo 189-Rd 08/42
Tony 34-Rd 08/42
Jack 17-Rd 10/43
N1K1 George 43-Rd 05/44
Frank 1a 0-Rd 08/44
We get Franks in 2 YEARS and 4 MONTHS! Banzai!!!
Seriously…
Naval Production: A6M2/A6M3 production will rapidly build-up our Fighter totals.
Army Production: Oscars are OK but we need to expand them some. When we hit 200-Rd with Tojo perhaps we’ll get a month advancement. If we can bring them forward to July or even June life would be great!
Bombers
Nell 0 (231)
Betty 57 (15)
Betty 2 4-Rd 07/43
Sally 74 (7)
Helen 46 (11)
Lily 40 (28)
Val 57 (226)
Kate 48 (157)
Good numbers but bombers aren’t stockpiling very much. With both Sally and Helen in production we should see growth here. Vals and Kates are solid and I like having a good number of them.
Transports
Mavis 0 (4)
Emily 16 (5)
Dave 0 (85)
Alf 5 (36)
Pete 0 (55)
Pete A 38 (6)
Rufe 22 (39)
Glen 4 (32)
Dinah 31 (0)
Jake 34 (66)
Ida 0 (81)
Babs (Ki-15) 0 (75)
Babs (C5M) 8 (23)
We can do a lot of work in this area by focusing on just a couple of seaplanes. Want to see Emily expansion occur. Cannot overestimate the value and vulnerability that these planes have for our side!
The Transports have made good their losses and we have a good-sized upward line going here. Will probably run these a little while longer before shifting to only two types of planes for the long run.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
As has been described the Japanese began the invasion of New Zealand to serve as a distraction for the Allies. No serious hope was entertained about the Operational success of the mission; however, over time that thinking began to change within the Japanese High Command.
The Allies are making no apparent effort to save the North Island or reinforce the South Island. Sensing opportunity, the Japanese began to move more infantry and other units to supplement the initial force of South Seas Force, a Construction Battalion, and a Special Base Force. This decision has born unexpected fruit.
Hamilton fell in mid-March and Wellington was invested about the the same time.
The Gisbome base has expanded to AF-3 and is rapidly approaching Sz-4. Fully 150 planes fly from this base and Hamilton boasts another 45 planes at its Sz-1 (almost 2) field. Each day Wellington was attacked by 20 Z and 50-60 Betty bombers doing damage to the AF and hitting the troops.
The end of the month saw the first Japanese bombardments. With the Tone Heavy Gun Regiment and 14th Army HQ arriving at Wellington on the 1st, the assault began in earnest.
April 3rd saw the arrival of the Kido Butaiwho then added a standing CAP over the town as well as strikes by as many as 99 Kates. Coinciding with the KB's power display a Deliberate Attack was launched that yielded a surprising 1-1 result and lowered the Forts to 4.
The attacking units displayed very little disruption so another attack was ordered for the 5th. The 4th and 5th saw heavy aerial attacks by the KB and Gisbome bombers. Each day saw at least 200 Allied Casualties as 4-8 Guns destroyed.
An attempt was made by the New Zealanders to help Wellington when two strikes were launched by Hudson bombers at the troops attacking Wellington. The first strike of 18 planes fought its way through 17 Zeros and the second strike found additional Japanese planes aiding the first Daitai raising the CAP to 37 total. For causing 9 Casualties, the New Zealand bomber crews lost 9 planes and had another dozen damaged.
With the skies reasonably safe, the attack order was given and Allied defenses immediately crumbled. By dawn of April 6th the city surrendered to the stunned and victorious Japanese! The result was a 6-1 attack and 14,508 POWs taken.
BANZAI!
Auckland is now next for Operation Shoestring...
Attachments
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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
I let John know that some real life issues are preventing me from giving this full attention; some attention, just not full attention. Basically I need to work hard to save my job, so depending on how that goes, I will either have not much time for WITP, or a whole lot. Let's hope the former.
At any rate, I think that NZ operation shows the danger of a Sir Robin. Even attempting a shoestring invasion would not be possible if they put up a fight at Noumea or Fiji, which were both undefended. When those spots were occupied, it made sense to keep going until encountering resistance, and that's what happened. And maybe it would have been smarter to concentrate everyone at Auckland when we landed. The speed with which Wellington fell was surprising.
The Allied plan seems to be to have build up Papete into a fortress right off the bat. We have seen tons of shipping there, but little anywhere else.
I don't think the situation in New Zealand shows anything but the inherant weakness of the Allies position at the start of the game; the Japanese, armed with foreknowledge (since you guys have played so many times) are able to exploit that inherant weakness in a way that probably wouldn't have happened in real life (and good for you for doing so!). The dilemma for the Allies is that NZ is a potential prison camp. Whatever they commit there will be demolished if the Japanese come in large numbers. So they instead focus on building up bases that will give them a good jumping off spot for the eventual day they are ready to go on the offensive. Papete is a great hold for them (but you guys could've taken that, too, had you been focused on SoPac rather than India; so they were rolling the dice there too).
So far you and John have done a great job - both due to planning and that awesome foreknowlege your real life counterparts didn't have. But you guys actually haven't administered any kind of crippling blow the the Allies yet. If the Allies aren't creamed in India, they will actually be in great shape.
Good luck with those real life issues, Q-Ball!
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
You're right about foreknowledge, that cuts both ways. The Allies "know" they are going to lose Malaya and shouldn't send the 18th Div as a late-Jan reinforcement. They know IJN torp bombers can sink a battleship in the Gulf of Siam. All lessons the real life Allies had to learn the hard way. They also know all the Japanese weaknesses.
Ultimately that is the only thing about the game you can't make more realistic; the history is in our heads, and the game knowledge too, and can't get out. The Pacific War was only a big series of surprises the first time!
Yes, that's true - both sides have the advantage of foreknowledge, and there's no way to duplicate the loss of the surprise and "ignorance" that the true combatants dealt with.
But during the first year of the game the Japs have a decided advantage because they hold the initiative. That's why in just about any human vs. human WitP game the Jap player will far exceed what the real Japs accomplished. Later in the war, the reverse is true with the Allies holding a similar advantage. For instance, in my game with John I know that the Japs aren't developing an atomic bomb.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
Yes, that's true - both sides have the advantage of foreknowledge, and there's no way to duplicate the loss of the surprise and "ignorance" that the true combatants dealt with.
But during the first year of the game the Japs have a decided advantage because they hold the initiative. That's why in just about any human vs. human WitP game the Jap player will far exceed what the real Japs accomplished. Later in the war, the reverse is true with the Allies holding a similar advantage. For instance, in my game with John I know that the Japs aren't developing an atomic bomb.
HAH! You only THINK we're not developing the bomb!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
That knowledge is an early IJN advantage, but more importantly is that the Japanese have unrealistic levels of shipping capacity in particular, and fuel/supplies. But mostly shipping capacity. No way IRL Japan could lift 7 divisions at once accross the Bay of Bengal like we just did.
Also no matter what we do, we don't knock the Allies out. We can maybe win an auto-victory, but the Allies never lose for good. You can lose India and bounce back, even if all the UK reinforcements arrive in Karachi (see PzB v Wobbly AAR).
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