LST vs. IdahoNYer (DBB-C, A AAR) 6 yrs and done! VJ Day!

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

That was a super job of displaying and reporting a fantastic series of engagements and combats! You really went all out, both in game and here -- kudos all around!

thanks jwolf....I know you've been waiting a bit for it [;)]

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Thanks for bringing us this blow-by-blow account. Must have been tense watching the carnage!

A lot of players seem to expect that the modern US BBs can have their way in any battle with IJN BBs. My experience has been that the higher level of crew experience on the IJN BBs outweighs the technological advantage of the US BBs until the latter get some action under their belts.

I try to use my fast BBs initially to escort carriers (where they may get experience defending against air attacks) and on bombardments of relatively isolated locations that cannot hit back very hard if the BB does not leave the scene right away.

Agree with you BB....but....what is the alternative if your opponent is bringing in BBs for bombardment? NC and Repulse were expected to counter TWO BBs in a TF - which had been L_S_T's normal bombardment TF - like the Ise and Hyuga pairing. Against 4 Kongos - especially when the ranges were under 10,000yds, I knew this wasn't going to turn out well.

Now that my LBA is growing, that might help deter the BB bombardment runs - and from now on my fast BBs will stick with the CVs.

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Kudos for a great victory! and yes I consider this an Allied victory regardless of any additional IJN loss

The biggest lesson is that the IJN needs to be fought within LBA range; otherwise it will prevail with minimal losses. If you take out the air component, then this would had been a Japanese victory

Thanks Jorge. Fully agree with LBA cover. Having the CV air groups also help a lot - US Army LBA isn't great against warships, and USMC air experience is still lacking a bit. Was hoping I could get the IJN into my LBA air umbrella while my CVs were in refit, but expected that during the Horn Island operation, not Carnavon! Never thought that much of the IJN would go that deep without their own air cover.

[jwolf]

Never thought that much of the IJN would go that deep without their own air cover.

In fairness, they probably weren't supposed to -- at least, not during the daytime. I am assuming that the Japanese intent was to engage and/or bombard during the night and withdraw toward his CV group before any LBA would launch during the day. But the surface action was so fierce and prolonged that his ships were caught much farther forward.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Thanks for bringing us this blow-by-blow account. Must have been tense watching the carnage!

A lot of players seem to expect that the modern US BBs can have their way in any battle with IJN BBs. My experience has been that the higher level of crew experience on the IJN BBs outweighs the technological advantage of the US BBs until the latter get some action under their belts.

I try to use my fast BBs initially to escort carriers (where they may get experience defending against air attacks) and on bombardments of relatively isolated locations that cannot hit back very hard if the BB does not leave the scene right away.

Agree with you BB....but....what is the alternative if your opponent is bringing in BBs for bombardment? NC and Repulse were expected to counter TWO BBs in a TF - which had been L_S_T's normal bombardment TF - like the Ise and Hyuga pairing. Against 4 Kongos - especially when the ranges were under 10,000yds, I knew this wasn't going to turn out well.

Now that my LBA is growing, that might help deter the BB bombardment runs - and from now on my fast BBs will stick with the CVs.

Not criticising your assumption of a 2 BB bombardment nor your decision to commit NC and Repulse. I have seen several comments recently in various AARs about how the modern US BBs were going to clean up on the older Japanese ones, and I was just trying to dispel the overconfidence a bit.

It appears that L-S-T brought along his carriers but was counting on a nuclear bombardment by all those SCTFs to close your airfields so he did not have to split his fighters between CAP and Sweep and Escort. You fooled him with your resistance and it cost him a lot. I hope your aircraft and subs can continue to cash in next few turns. [:)]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

What I have learnt after reading some AARs is that BBs are very vulnerable. Other than carrier escort (fast) and naval bombing assets (slow), I don't think I am going to use them a lot. I have seen a packs of cruisers doing more damage.

I certainly believe LST's use of his entire Kongo class ship as a tactical asset was way too much risk, as these are the only battleships fast enough to join the KB.
for at least 3 to 4 months, most likely more, his KB will be either poorly protected or moving slowly

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

What I have learnt after reading some AARs is that BBs are very vulnerable. Other than carrier escort (fast) and naval bombing assets (slow), I don't think I am going to use them a lot. I have seen a packs of cruisers doing more damage.

I certainly believe LST's use of his entire Kongo class ship as a tactical asset was way too much risk, as these are the only battleships fast enough to join the KB.
for at least 3 to 4 months, most likely more, his KB will be either poorly protected or moving slowly

I was about to say he can use his potent CAs as CV escorts too, but he had quite a few of them messed up too! [:D]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Yes, plus the fact that less bombers will go after cruisers than after battleship. A key function of escort battleships is to absorb hits that otherwise would hit carriers.

Moving into Allied escorts; other than battleships and CLAAs, I have noticed that USS Wichita (CA-45) can be an awesome escort, carrying eight Mark 12 5"/38 caliber guns (although I don't know if there is adifference between ERB enclosed turrets and OP(S) open pedestals) and 16 bofors

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

What I have learnt after reading some AARs is that BBs are very vulnerable. Other than carrier escort (fast) and naval bombing assets (slow), I don't think I am going to use them a lot. I have seen a packs of cruisers doing more damage.

That was my belief going into this game as well. L_S_T has given me doubts - his use of BBs in the bombardment role has been a greater threat than the KB at times! I've found little to stop the BBs - a CA TF gets mauled, and the best a/c weapon the US has early on is the SBD - which doesn't do much against BBs.

What I've also learned (the hard way) is that BBs can be effectively used by the IJN in this manner, but not so much by the US. US experience just isn't up to task. Had to do it all over again, I'd leave the old US BBs safe in port, or perhaps troop convoy escort (I lost too many in the Aleutians). My fast BBs will provide AA for CV TFs for the foreseeable future.

The best counter I have right now to the IJN BBs (other than increasing aerial torpedo platforms) is hopefully L_S_T will be a bit more conservative now after Carnavon.

[poodlebrain]

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer


US experience just isn't up to task. Had to do it all over again, I'd leave the old US BBs safe in port, or perhaps troop convoy escort (I lost too many in the Aleutians).

Experience can be gained. You can send your BBs on shakedown cruises to build experience, then assign them some bombardment missions under LBA before committing them to real battles. You have more than a year to do so, and fuel consumption shouldn't be too much of a concern if you base them on the West Coast and North Pacific until you are ready to conduct offensive operations in the Central and/or South Pacific. This will also give you opportunity to upgrade the AA capabilities of the BBs so that they can better defend themselves from air strikes.

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer


US experience just isn't up to task. Had to do it all over again, I'd leave the old US BBs safe in port, or perhaps troop convoy escort (I lost too many in the Aleutians).

Experience can be gained. You can send your BBs on shakedown cruises to build experience, then assign them some bombardment missions under LBA before committing them to real battles. You have more than a year to do so, and fuel consumption shouldn't be too much of a concern if you base them on the West Coast and North Pacific until you are ready to conduct offensive operations in the Central and/or South Pacific. This will also give you opportunity to upgrade the AA capabilities of the BBs so that they can better defend themselves from air strikes.

True enough, but shakedowns aren't nearly enough...and "safe bombardments" can turn out oh so poorly - witness my battleship graveyard in the Aleutians! Thought that was going to be a backwater and got bushwacked! I'll play it very conservatively with my remaining BBs from now on!

[IdahoNYer]

22-23 Oct 42

Highlights – Weather and IJN CAP protect stragglers off Exmouth, heavy air loss for no gain.

Jpn ships sunk:
BB: 1 (Kirishima – I figure this isn’t Kiri, but perhaps Haruna did infact sink from damage)
CA: 1 (Takao – again, figure this may be another ship succumbing to damage, could also be Haguro)
CL: 1 (Isuzu –took a torp this turn, but my bet is she’s still really afloat)
xAKL: 1 (old)

Jpn ships unsunk:
SS: 2 (I-164, I-173)

Allied ships sunk: None

Air loss:
Jpn: 25
Allied: 113

Subwar:
Jpn: 0 Attacks, 0 ships hit
Allies: 5 Attacks, 1 ship hit (CL Isuzu hit by Pickeral)

Jpn Amph Inv:
Lingga (DEI)

Allied Amph Inv: None

Bases lost:
Lingga (DEI)

Bases Liberated: None

SIGINT/Intel: NSTR

West Coast/Admin. US ships start coming off the 10/42 refit/upgrades – CVs Wasp, Hornet and Enterprise included.

In NOPAC, still quiet. The convoy “demonstrating” as an amphibious TF in the Bering Sea fails to draw any response. With the size of the IJN committed off Carnavon – probably could have landed at Attu without much problem, but that opportunity has passed till summer of ’43 or so.

In SOPAC, CD Bn continues offloading at Funafuti, still escorted by a CL TF (CLAA, 3DDs) and so far, no enemy reaction.

In SWPAC, still reorganizing shipping for the most part along the NE coast of OZ. Fast transports (APDs) continue to shuttle a BF into Horn from Portland Roads, as do C-47s out of Cooktown. An small convoy of three xAKLs offload supplies at Horn, and the expected Betty strike doesn’t happen. Allied air, especially the P-38s, are still repairing planes before additional raids are made. Focus for the next week will be to reinforce Horn with additional engineers and supply, then look at additional landings.

In WAUS, not a good two days. Starts off with the 4 IJN CVs air hitting Carnavon at night – not doing much damage (4 planes destroyed on the ground), but figure that the raid added some “disruption” to strikes departing that base. The worse news was bad weather shutting down early raids out of Carnavon while the IJN cripples were still south and west of Exmouth. It wasn’t until the IJN was between Exmouth and Port Hedland that strikes were launched and by then, they were very well protected by CAP – over 100 Zeros which simply crushed the US strikes. By the time the dust settled, 26xF4F, 21xSBD, 3xTBF, and 3xKittyhawks were lost in exchange for 7 Zeros!! And of course, no hits were scored on any ships with that kind of CAP. The only joy was SS Pickeral hitting CL Isuzu with a single torp (but missed CV Soryu with 4 fish!!) At this point, unless a sub gets lucky, whatever ships the four CVs are protecting are likely to get away. I’ll put air on night, including PBYs, to see if they can manage an attack, but any daylight attack against that CAP is foolhardy – especially as the F4Fs would be at extended range. The other negative outcome of these strikes is that the previously robust pool of F4Fs and SBDs has just been zeroed out (pun intended [;)]). As for the Allied Naval combatants, I’m forced to scuttle the Repulse at Carnavon – had 99sys and fires were at 84 after two days in port. At Perth, the damaged remnants of the Allied fleet reconfigures to be sent to repairs. CA Australia and two DDs will head to Cape Town, while four US DDs will head to Melbourne. CL Birmingham and a single Brit DD will head to join BB Warspite/CV Illustrious TFs sill out at sea. Two other DDs (including the Anderson which did so well as part of the ASW TF engagements) will provide escort to the USMC Def Bn Convoy heading back to Exmouth from Perth once it loads additional supplies.

In China, NSTR.

In India/Burma, a poorly protected Blenheim ground support in front of the US 27th Div is costly as it runs into heavy CAP – 25 are lost in two days – escorts didn’t fly and sweeps were over Akyab instead. Not the first time Blenheims have wondered into CAP traps…been an unlucky plane so far. US bombers, both B-24s and B-25s rest. At Cochin, the first USMC planes, a squadron of F4Fs and SBDs, are offloaded.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I guess you are right regarding Japanese BBs, there is really no better use for slow BBs than "nuclear bombardment". And losses are not too critical as Japan won't be doing major amphibious invasions in 1944. Still I would like to conserve the Kongos for carrier escort.

For the Allies, it really goes back to the fact that only torpedoes can sink BBs, and Japan is very strong in this department. Netties, Kates, submarines can all too easily take care of the BBs. I think only British BBs (those that will withdraw) should be risked in non carrier escort operations.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Wildcat/ Dauntless pools, you won't be going offensive anytime soon. Plus there are several CVE reserve squadrons arriving in October/ November

[IdahoNYer]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I guess you are right regarding Japanese BBs, there is really no better use for slow BBs than "nuclear bombardment". And losses are not too critical as Japan won't be doing major amphibious invasions in 1944. Still I would like to conserve the Kongos for carrier escort.

For the Allies, it really goes back to the fact that only torpedoes can sink BBs, and Japan is very strong in this department. Netties, Kates, submarines can all too easily take care of the BBs. I think only British BBs (those that will withdraw) should be risked in non carrier escort operations.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Wildcat/ Dauntless pools, you won't be going offensive anytime soon. Plus there are several CVE reserve squadrons arriving in October/ November

For the IJN, the fast BBs are a must in CV TFs - they're SBD magnets (something I've always had issue with, but have come to accept it) and while the fast US BBs are great AA platforms in CV TFs, but being Kate magnets isn't quite the same!

Here's a question for you Jorge - what do you do with the CVE reserve squadrons early on? Once I get the Essex CVs, they'll be useful, but right now I have four sitting in port, with the air groups on land training the navy fliers for the upcoming '43-'44 expansion. With decks empty, I may take on or two to do ASW operations, but really don't see a need for a/c replacements at sea for the next 6 months or so.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I am using the CVE squadrons for training. The ships are sitting at port, each carrying a Marine squadron, also doing training (this to make them "carrier trained" eventually)

[BBfanboy]

There is an exception to the wisdom that only torps can sink BBs in this game: 30+ bomb hits will start heavy fires on an IJN BB and if they are not close to a major port they will burn up. If you can't hole 'em, melt 'em!

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

There is an exception to the wisdom that only torps can sink BBs in this game: 30+ bomb hits will start heavy fires on an IJN BB and if they are not close to a major port they will burn up. If you can't hole 'em, melt 'em!

yes but that is more of an exception, a very hard thing to do... I mean CAP will not allow so many bombers scoring hits. I can see this happening by either leaving a BB in port with no CAP at all (this is the real example, I don't remember the AAR) or a crippled battleship losing engine, and then staying within range and at the mercy of LBAs for several turns. This happened to me near Pt Blair. Victim was Ramillies or Royal Sovereign.

[IdahoNYer]

24-25 Oct 42

Highlights – IJN continues to withdraw towards safer waters without much interference; P-40s catch Lillys over Kienko.

Jpn ships sunk:
DD: 1 (Yudachi – old)
SS: 1 (I-9)

Jpn ships unsunk:
SS: 1 (I-24)

Allied ships sunk:
BC: 1 (Repulse scuttled)

Air loss:
Jpn: 63
Allied: 21

Subwar:
Jpn: 0 Attacks, 0 ships hit
SS I-124 hits a mine at Horn Island
Allies: 2 Attacks, 1 ship hit (DD Shiratsuyu dam)

Jpn Amph Inv:
Enggano (DEI)

Allied Amph Inv: None

Bases lost: None

Bases Liberated: None

SIGINT/Intel: CA TF (CA, 2CL,5DD) sighted by sub midway between Truk and Rabaul – but not sure which direction they are headed.

West Coast/Admin. With Liberty ships becoming more and more available, I’m re-missioning some of the larger xAKs (11,000 endurance) off long range convoy runs (such as LA to Auck) to shorter range runs (to Noumea, Luganville, etc.)– where I’m short haulers right now.

In NOPAC, NSTR.

In CENPAC, NSTR.

In SOPAC, CD Bn finishes offload at Funafuti, and ships depart without issue.

In SWPAC, Horn Island AF reaches level 2. IJN sub I-124 hits a freshly laid minefield (100mines) at Horn – likely one less minelayer sub out there! Coastal shipping along the NE OZ coast remains busy – engineers will depart Cairns for Horn Is, and supply runs continue from Portland Roads. Other than providing CAP, airpower rests as P-38s are taking their sweet time repairing.

In WAUS, no air attacks on the withdrawing IJN ships, now off Port Hedland. S-38 puts a torp into DD Shiratsuya which was in a TF with damaged CA Kumuno and CL Isuzu; CVs and BBs are not spotted. Likely most of the damaged ships have gotten away, but I have no idea what port they are headed to.

In China, patience finally pays off, and keeping the two Chungking based P-40 squadrons on LRCAP over Kienko maul unescorted Lillys while the Oscars sweep are over Chungking. 30 Lillys are downed for no friendly losses.

In India/Burma, Allied fighter sweeps over IJA units between Akyab and Shwebo find a robust LRCAP of Oscars and Tojos. Results are about even: 9 Hurri and 5 P-40s are lost in exchange 11 Oscars and 3 Tojos. On the ground, Allied “broad front” advance begins closing on Shwebo- Myitkyna rail line from the Imphal route.

[IdahoNYer]

26-27 Oct 42

Highlights – Pretty quiet except for BB Haruna taking three torps off Broome!

Jpn ships sunk:
SS: 1 (RO-68)

Jpn ships unsunk:
BB:1 (Kirishima – not surprised at all here)
SS: 1 (RO-60)

Allied ships sunk: None

Air loss:
Jpn: 10
Allied: 09

Subwar:
Jpn: 0 Attacks, 0 ships hit
SS RO-68 reportedly sunk by subchaser’s mousetrap – first kill for that weapon system!
Allies: 4 Attacks, 2 ship hit (BB Haruna,xAK dam)

Jpn Amph Inv: None

Allied Amph Inv: None

Bases lost:
Enggano (DEI)

Bases Liberated: None

SIGINT/Intel: CVs and cripples sighted by sub just west of Broome moving slowly along the Australian coast.

West Coast/Admin. NSTR.

In NOPAC, NSTR.

In CENPAC, NSTR.

In SOPAC, NSTR.

In SWPAC, Heavy Allied coastal convoy traffic continues, with IJN’s RO-68 finding a small convoy off Portland Roads, and pays the price when a subchaser reports her sunk with use of a mousetrap. Transports begin loading baseforces at Townsville for transit to Cooktown and Portland Roads – short aviation support in NW OZ now that Horn Island AF is operational earlier than expected. I figured for a longer ground fight, and a more damaged AF! I really don’t mind these kind of problems! But, I’ve shifted some BFs to Horn, and they need to be replaced quickly as plane readiness is lagging – especially in the P-38s.

In WAUS, subs finally find the withdrawing Carnavon Cripples when Dutch sub O-19 puts three torps into BB Haruna just west of Broome. She’s left on fire and heavily damaged, but still afloat! In the same TF is the heavily damaged BB Hiei. CVs are also reported in the area, and their a/c are focusing on ASW; north of Broome, Dutch sub KXVIII is crippled by a Val and will have to limp back to Port Hedland. So the IJN is trying to pull back along the coast! I had figured they were heading more toward Koepang – and will adjust subs accordingly. I find this coastal route strange – no significant ports nearby – Broome is only a level 1 port, Derby and Wyndham level 2, and Darwin level 3. Finding the two crippled BBs is surprising at this point – I figured they had gotten clean away.

In China, NSTR.

In India/Burma, its pretty quiet as I rest the B-24s one more turn. Brit Lib IIs hit Rangoon port at night, putting a bomb into a DMS at portside. US Hudsons hit the 48th ID moving in clear terrain just north of Shwebo (another IJA division identified!) and will hit it with B-24s next turn. P-38Es arrive in India. Its only one squadron with 21 planes with lousy maintenance, but its still a P-38 squadron!

[IdahoNYer]

28-29 Oct 42

Highlights – Haruna TF takes refuge in Broome?!; PBYs w/torps hit xAP convoy at Vaitupu

Jpn ships sunk:
BB: 1 (Kirishima – Haruna perhaps?)
PB: 1 (old report)
xAP: 2

Jpn ships unsunk:
SS: 1 (I-154)

Allied ships sunk:
SS: 2 (KXVIII, Pompano)

Air loss:
Jpn: 21
Allied: 25

Subwar:
Jpn: 0 Attacks, 0 ships hit
Allies: 1 Attack, 0 ships hit
SS KXVIII and Pampano sink after both fail to stem flooding from bomb hits

Jpn Amph Inv:
Great Nicobar (Burma)

Allied Amph Inv: None

Bases lost: None

Bases Liberated: None

SIGINT/Intel: NSTR

West Coast/Admin. CVs Hornet and Wasp along with BB South Dakota, depart Bremerton for the Pacific after refit/upgrades.

In NOPAC, NSTR.

In CENPAC, NSTR.

In SOPAC, PBYs set to naval attack to provide some air support to resupply runs to Funafuti catch an IJN convoy at Vaitupu (likely picking up troops, but not sure). Three strikes leave two xAPs sunk, and another damaged. The IJN TF is still there at turn’s end, and the CLAA Atlanta w/3 DDs which is providing cover for a SeaBee Bn being transported to Funafuti will detach and attempt to catch the transports – which appeared to have only light escort – a PB was the only escorted reported by the PBYs. Elsewhere, B-24s hit Tulagi with little effect, and lose a bomber to Rufes on CAP.

In SWPAC, coastal convoys continue.

In WAUS, it appears that the IJN’s Carnavon cripples have gone to port at Broome. Very surprised here since Broome is just a level 1 port – something must be pretty banged up! Broome is out of effective fighter range except for the P-38G, so perhaps we’ll try a B-17 raid on the port in a few turns. The real question is whether the four CVs have remained at Broome as well – PBYs detected two TFs there, but no specifics due to bad weather. Will send recon as well as some single squadron bomber strikes in both daylight and night to see what they stir up.

In China, Kienko is held against two attacks, but forts are reduced from 4 to 2. Kienko will fall next turn – no supplies anyway...

In India/Burma, B-24s hit the IJA’s 48th ID and a tank regiment out in the open with fair results outside of Shwebo, and no friendly loss. A 4 squadron Allied fighter sweep finds heavy LRCAP over the US 27th ID, and the IJA’s fighters come out on top; Allies lose 12 Hurris, and 5 P-40Es against 8 Oscars and 2 Tojos. The Hurris just aren’t good enough against Tojos – they fair well against the Oscars, but completely outclassed by Tojos.