The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[GreyJoy]

For the records, Kirishima was the 4th BB lost by Rader and we have already sunk a good number of his CAs and most of his CLs...but, as you know, the allies lost quite a huge number of surface forces too...

[Nemo121]

Glorious death's all well and good but Shirley one could at least ASK for victory too? [8D]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Glorious death's all well and good but Shirley one could at least ASK for victory too? [8D]

Who's Shirley? [X(]

This is not a winning strategy. I'm aware of that. A winning strategy could have been keep on bombing Japan for the rest of the war.
But i do believe that with "Suddenly Hairy" i have completed my personal journey from defeat to, if not victory, a winning position...so i've already got what i wanted to achieve(not to lose without firing back a single shot). Now i'm only looking for immortal glory and for a entretaining end of the game[:)]

[EUBanana]

All too predictable. Experience is king in surface combat, any pre-1944 Allied unit is going to have a rabbits in headlights experience. Seems especially the case for big ships, BBs and to a lesser extent cruisers. Radar makes little odds. Radar used to make a big difference, but people complained about the USN cleaning Japanese clock in 1942. Now its gone the other way.

Check the experience of your surface ships. A ship like BB Washington will be pointless in a night fight, even in 1944. A ship like Iowa, with the high 60s, might be okay, but if I were you I'd select BBs with 70+ night fighting experience, which is essentially all the Allied BBs that show up after Iowa. BB Howe, BB Richelieu, any American BBs post-Iowa... they all have 70+.

I've not yet tried it myself but I can only assume that they will do much better. I assume the reason the IJN are such supermen in surface combat is down to experience, and not some hardcoded Japan Bonus.

[CT Grognard]

+1.

The old US Pennsylvania-class and Tennessee-class battleships that start the war at Pearl Harbor have average day experience of around 55 and average night experience of around 35(!) whereas the Japanese battleships start with day experience averaging around 68 and night experience around 65.

[GreyJoy]

Yes but USS Washington had an exp of 70 day and 58 night, and the BC Repulse a much better night rating...
 
However guys...i'm not complaining. I didn't send them to a night fight...Rader engaged me and his bold move assured him the day.
Happens.
Storm weather and low visibility might have had an influence in the fact that the INJ TF managed to slip through the other TFs that guarded Hakodate (BB Valiant and Queen Eliz + DDs and PTs)...bold move and good luck!
 
CR is right however...this is a draw to my eyes...we exchanged 1 BB and 1 BC for 1 BB and 2 CAs...not that bad.
 

[Roger Neilson II]

I understand where you are coming from on this GreyJoy, I watch with interest and hope that the comment: "C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre." will not be applicable.

My gut feeling is it will be.

Roger

[CT Grognard]

Indeed. Those Japanese CAs are irreplaceable.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Yes but USS Washington had an exp of 70 day and 58 night, and the BC Repulse a much better night rating...

58 is dead meat though. Like a fighter pilot with air skill 58. You'd need luck to prevail, and he did achieve a local superiority, so a bad day was on the cards!

Repulse just always seems to be unlucky in my games. [:D] That said I'm sure even Repulse only had mid 60s at best.

CR is right however...this is a draw to my eyes...we exchanged 1 BB and 1 BC for 1 BB and 2 CAs...not that bad.

Granted, the end result is really an 'indecisive, strategic Allied victory' in Wikipedia parlance.

It's still frustrating when you see your incompetent navies having to use weight of numbers to win though!

[GreyJoy]

Tomorrow i bet it's gonna be another day of blood for the allies... we're there guys...facing the mighty IJAAF and IJNAAF...thousands of enemy planes...300,000 enemies and 3,500 guns are aiming at us on those beaches...The Combined Fleet ready to descend upon us...


....

DO YOU FEEL THE SOUR TASTE OF FEAR IN YOUR MOUTH?
DO YOU FEEL YOUR KNEES BENDING UNDER THE PRESSURE OF RESPONSABILITY?
DO YOU FEEL THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS DAY IN HISTORY?

DO YOU FEEL IT?

...chills on my backbone...decisions to be taken...every move, every order can mean victory or defeat...a mistake now means thousands of lifes lost...

Let's show the world we are men iron born!

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

DO YOU FEEL THE SOUR TASTE OF FEAR IN YOUR MOUTH?
DO YOU FEEL YOUR KNEES BENDING UNDER THE PRESSURE OF RESPONSABILITY?
DO YOU FEEL THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS DAY IN HISTORY?

DO YOU FEEL IT?

I feel crunchy popcorn in my mouth; I taste the butter as I prop my legs up on the seatback in front of me, and lean back in my plush theater chair to enjoy the Big Action Scene of this highly-rated Action/Adventure movie. . .
[8D]

[CT Grognard]

Bloodiest war movie ever filmed.

The MPAA is refusing to rate it...

[GreyJoy]

Orders sent...
 
 

[JohnDillworth]

ll too predictable. Experience is king in surface combat, any pre-1944 Allied unit is going to have a rabbits in headlights experience. Seems especially the case for big ships, BBs and to a lesser extent cruisers. Radar makes little odds. Radar used to make a big difference, but people complained about the USN cleaning Japanese clock in 1942. Now its gone the other way.

Check the experience of your surface ships. A ship like BB Washington will be pointless in a night fight, even in 1944. A ship like Iowa, with the high 60s, might be okay, but if I were you I'd select BBs with 70+ night fighting experience, which is essentially all the Allied BBs that show up after Iowa. BB Howe, BB Richelieu, any American BBs post-Iowa... they all have 70+.

I've not yet tried it myself but I can only assume that they will do much better. I assume the reason the IJN are such supermen in surface combat is down to experience, and not some hardcoded Japan Bonus.

Sorry, not buying this. If I recall the USS Washington outfought a superior force, at night, in 1942 and left with little damage. The IJN could not claim the same. In 1942!!!!

[GreyJoy]

I've ordered one more turn of rest at Kushiro, refuling and organization (i don't wanna get screwed by the loss of op points due to unwanted refueling) all my 1300 ships are now refueled and with do-not-reful orders.
2100 fighters are now based at Kushiro, guarding the fleet. Every altitude, from 1000 to 36k has been well covered.
We have Spits, Hellcats, Thunderbolts, P-38s, P-51s and Corsairs. The Wildcats remained at Bihoro along with the few Mosquitos
 
I managed to distribute 2 BBs+2 CAs for each of the 4 main TFs, while the 3 minor TFs have CLs and DDs to provide support.
 
Sincerly? There's no way i can form a stronger force. I think i've done the best i could.
 
Rader will probably now wait for me before committing again....i'm so scared i cannot even type...

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
Sorry, not buying this. If I recall the USS Washington outfought a superior force, at night, in 1942 and left with little damage. The IJN could not claim the same. In 1942!!!!

There's massive scope for luck, of course, but experience is a MAJOR factor, and is far more significant than radar in my experience. Experience <60 = you suck.

I'm not saying it's historical, I'm saying thats how it is in AE... [;)] BB Warspite wouldn't do any better than Washington, her experience also isn't amazing, and she had actually fought in a night battle not long prior, and did well.


One other factor seems to be ship class, at a wild guess, which I think may exacerbate low nightfighting experience. I think BBs might have some penalties, or be favoured by torpedo targeting routines, or something. The reason why I say this is because PG Soerabaja is not actually a little ASW ship like most PGs, but a pre-dreadnought - a rather different beast entirely! And PG Soerabaja, if you manage the miracle of getting her into surface combat, has always punched well above her weight when I've seen her in action, given her experience is AWFUL (like, sub 30) and her speed and maneuverability similarly bad. I've seen that ship have Japanese CAs more than once in gunnery duels. Might just be luck though. [:D]

[JohnDillworth]

There's massive scope for luck, of course, but experience is a MAJOR factor,

2nd Naval battle of Guadalcanal? Luck? Must of felt real lucky when the South Dakota's circuit breakers tripped and effectively took her out of the battle leaving the Washington essentially alone (besides the brave destroyers) Check your history mate, not much luck here. Superior leadership, early radar detection ,excellent fire control mauled a superior Japanese force. Luck had nothing to do with it.

[JohnDillworth]

There's massive scope for luck, of course, but experience is a MAJOR factor,

2nd Naval battle of Guadalcanal? Luck? Must of felt real lucky when the South Dakota's circuit breakers tripped and effectively took her out of the battle leaving the Washington essentially alone (besides the brave destroyers) Check your history mate, not much luck here. Superior leadership, early radar detection ,excellent fire control mauled a superior Japanese force. Luck had nothing to do with it.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

There's massive scope for luck, of course, but experience is a MAJOR factor,

2nd Naval battle of Guadalcanal? Luck? Must of felt real lucky when the South Dakota's circuit breakers tripped and effectively took her out of the battle leaving the Washington essentially alone (besides the brave destroyers) Check your history mate, not much luck here. Superior leadership, early radar detection ,excellent fire control mauled a superior Japanese force. Luck had nothing to do with it.

I think you're missing the point.

IN GAME BB Washington is essentially a green ship in night battles. She will suffer in a night engagement. What happened to Greyjoy is not surprising, I've seen similar happen again and again. I believe this is entirely down to the dire experience ratings of Allied ships, which Greyjoy confirmed. The experience of Japanese ships now is probably 65 at the bare minimum - they start in 1941 with that after all, and I guess they might have had a couple more points since then (but see below).

I agree its rubbish as far as history is concerned. I dont get why yard queens like Mutsu are apparently finely honed engines of death in AE, while a ship like Warspite is distinctly average, but there it is.

Furthermore naval experience does not really go up much "on map", Washington is still green in 1944. Especially for capital ships like BBs, because they get into action rarely - DDs stand a pretty good chance of encountering bad guys in comparison so DD crews advance faster than battleship yard queens. New ships, like BB Howe and Richelieu and the Iowas, get higher experience as Allied crews on reinforcement ships get better as time goes on. Unfortunately the old 1942 and even 1943 capital ships will still be crewed by the Three Stooges until the end of the war, and that includes Washington.

I don't think I've ever seen an Allied SAG punch above its weight. I've seen Allied SAGs perform about as well as their foes, and I've seen them get ripped apart by their foes (a lot) but I can't think of many where I go, wow, they did good there! PG Soerabaja is an odd counterexample but I think I can explain that. That said I've never seen late war SAGs in action - I would anticipate Howe, Richelieu et al would do far far better.

Looking at the list of blown away ships and what was responsible that rader posted on his AAR, it looks like Washington dished out some pain at least, she didn't die alone.

[JohnDillworth]

IN GAME BB Washington is essentially a green ship in night battles.

Fair enough. The game has the night fighting ability of Washington just plain wrong. Anybody know what orifice they pulled the night rating of Washington from? Hard to think of a US ship that would have a higher rating than the Washington.