Speedy vs Fabertong - time to smack back the Penguin

[castor troy]

there´s an own tracker thread on the main page, the guys nearly instantly help you if you post it there.

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

Thanks guys. I've taken the issue up on the Tracker topic.

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Wake -

During the early days of 1943 100's of ships headed westwards towards Wake Island. On the 3rd my 3 x CV TF's headed off into the gloom leaving the invasion fleet to soften up the enemy before the landings.

The Japanese got the first blow in though when at 10AM on the 5th January SS RO-61 detected CV Yorktown. She fired 6 torpedoes at her 2 of which hit amidships on the port side leaving the carrier listing heavily. The escorts reacted franticly searchign the attacker with avengeance. DD Selfridge located the sub and forced it to surface where it was blown to pieces in a hail of gunfire from the escorts.

Yorktown is struggling and may well sink (17/74 (64 MJR)/0). She's heading home but has a long way to go......

The irony is that in our last game CV Yorktown was attacked twice and sunk by Faber's sub's (that time in the Aleutians).

Other than that no enemy interference has been seen and Wake has been subjected to a heavy air bombardment from CV air sinking an ACM and damaging runways, blowing up supply and fuel dumps and targetting enemy positions.

3 enemy units occupy wake - 62nd Infantry Group, 9th RF Gun Bn and Wake Coastal Gun Bn. I'll focus on air bombardment for another 3-4 days before sending in BB's and then landing.

The main threat will be Subs and I expect no enemy air or surface interference.

Fingers crossed for Yorktown.........

---------------------------------

CBI -

Main action of note is the use of B24's on minelaying missions from Calcutta against Rangoon and Port Blair.. One thing that bugs me here is that the enemy knows you're dropping mine's as an air bombardment screen appears in the combat phase[8|] Nonetheless I hope they provide some annoyance.

---------------------------------

Australia -

All Perth badsed LCU's have boarded ships bound for Port Hedland. Next stop Carnarvon for more embarkation and then Port Hedland. Over 250 ships will take part in this operation. I'll detail the forces in the next update.

Port Hedland remains closed by 4E.

Faber pulled a good move on the 4th sneaking in a CV force to the west of Carnarvon. They located a Carnarvon bound supply convoy and despite Spitfire/Kittyhawk fighter cover caused mayhem sinking 7 (half of the freighters) AK's. At least 2 x CV's were detected. Has to be Junyo and Hiyo. Enemy losses were reported at 12 x Zero, 3 x Val for 6 x Spitfire and 3 x Kittyhawk.

--------------------------------

Submarine Warfare -

Slow start to the month. 2 attacks and 2 successes!

SS Kingsfish blew uo the small Freighter Kidokawa Maru near Gebe on the 2nd.

SS Sargo sank the Aden Class AK Uga Maru with 2 torpedoes on the 5th.

2 subs have been damaged by enemy LBA off Shikuka - Scorpion and Searaven. Searaven will probably sink.

[anarchyintheuk]

Proper chastizing of the Penguin for not updating his aar.

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

anarchy - I wish Faber would update his AAR too! Especiallly as action's going to be heating up from now forth.

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Wake -

All forces are on station around Wake now as well as at least 6 enemy submarines! I have dedicated all of the TBF's on my 3 x CVE to ASW duty as well as many FP's.

My Fleet CV's have been pounding the Wake Coastal Gun Bn for the past 2 days. I wish they would target 62nd Infantry Group for a day!

I'll bomb for another day or so and then send in the BB's and then the invasion.

CV Yorktown is (touch wood) doing ok. She's pumped some water out (17/64 (69 MJR)/0) and is 3 days away from port. Search planes have detected at least 4 enemy submarines trying to locate her. I have 5 ASW TF's out patrolling.

---------------------------

Australia -

The Port Hedland invasion fleets have left Carnarvon on the evening of the 10th! ETA 3 days to landfall. P38's are stationed at Exmouth to increase LRCAP.

Here's the OOB for this invasion:

2nd British Division
4th Australian Division
22nd East African Bde
23rd British Bde
16th British Bde
14th British Bde
7th Aus Div Cav Rgt
21st Australian Bde
25th Australian Bde
4th Arm Bde
45th Recce Rgt
Kanga Force
3rd MG Bn
2/11th Arm Car Bn
2/8th Arm Rgt

As you can see quite a varied force!

4E keep Port Hedland closed.

-------------------------

CBI -

Minelaying continues, this time, at Port Blair. Unsurprisingly Japanese DMS are spotted clearing mines at Rangoon[8|] Can't see why the Japanese should get notification of my minelaying missions if there's no CAP present?[8|]

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Submarine Warfare -

3 x Dud/misses.

SS S-32 damaged AK Atlantic Maru with a torpedo off Shikuka.

SS Gunnel was unfortunately sunk by Japanese DD's in the Malacca Strait. The freaky coincidence is that she was damaged by the same group a month ago!

[crsutton]

I forget. Are you playing scen 1 or 2?

Some thoughts on Jan 43 as I am already at about 6/43.

F4U-1 corsair is a nice plane to have but you won't have enough and it is risky to use them a forward based due the 3 service rating. Flying, say at 40% CAP it is not unusual to have 1/3 of the planes down for repairs. Still it is a good fighter in combat. You really won't get decent plane in numbers until mid 43. (more lightnings, P47s and hellcats)

The coronado helps as you just never have enough patrol aircraft but it is a 4 engine aircraft so suffers from the same service problems as your other heavies, and it's range is no better than catalinas. It can still fly from level 0 ports with a tender so it is better than nothing.

It is nice to get better torepdoes but if your opponent is devoting enough ships to ASW (conversions to PB) then the sub war will get very frustrating as any escorted convoy will usually result in your subs targeting the escorts and not the valuable merchants. This is driving me crazy and has become my holy grail to get fixed. For now, I am using my subs to hunt warships as they are more likely to target a BB or CV than they are to target a tanker in a convoy with escorts.

[castor troy]

Got no problems with the first version of Corsairs, even got them on 50% Cap 20% rest and usually not more than one or two fighters damaged. All my bases got full av support of course. I´ve already got the second version and am "drowning" in Corsairs now due to not much fighting in my PBEM and the fact that I have to use quite a lot of USMC squadrons as training squadrons. My all time favourite is the P-47 as it seems to beat just everything in big numbers.

Can only agree with the subs, while I had minimal losses until late 43 and good success against enemy tanker convoys (80+ tankers sunk) I´ve lost 7 subs to ASW from DD or E within just a couple of days just recently which was more than shocking.

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

crsutton/castor - We're playing Scenario 1. Interesting info. Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to 43 and the better toys the Allies get to play with. Agreed on the early Crosair. With it's limited range as well it will have limited use. Should be a good fighter though!

Totally agree on the Patrol craft. You can never have enough of them. Always looking to maximise the VP Sqn deployments!

Hmm. That is disconcerting on the increased Japanese ASW [:(] I have always rated my efforts at sub use but, from looking at the Japanese reinforcement queue, it does seem strangely daunting with the number of 'E' vessels entering service along with 3in A/S mortars and Type 2 DC's..... Even more so since the Japanese soon start to receive 5-8 TK/AO a month as reinforcements. Sheesh. I can only hope I find some way to be successful!

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Wake -

The bombardments from the air continue and BB's Tennessee, California, Arizona + CA/CL force shell Wake overnight on the 12th. On the 13th 7 more BB's + escorts go in to soften up the place as the Marines head to shore!

Hope it will go well.

Damn Japanese subs are proving effective as RO-66 locates CVE Suwannee and puts a fish into her NW of Wake (20/24/6). She'll stay on station but grrrrrr[:@]

Good news is that Yorktown made port and should be safe now [8D]

------------------------------------------

Australia -

Port Hedland force is a day or 2 out as 4E keep it closed. P38's providing cover from Exmouth. Be interesting to see if Faber brings down Junyo/Hiyo.

------------------------------------------


CBI -
Seems pointless useing 4E for minelaying as I say it's advertised to the Japanese and they can easily send AM's to clear. Today for example DMS's cleared over 60 mines at Port Blair[8|]

Might be a new Japanese offensive stirring in Chna at Kanshien. 5 enemy units approaching. Seems pointless to me as I have oodles of reserves I can throw in but we'll see.

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Submarine Warfare -

Just the 1 missed attack [:(]

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hmm. That is disconcerting on the increased Japanese ASW [:(] I have always rated my efforts at sub use but, from looking at the Japanese reinforcement queue, it does seem strangely daunting with the number of 'E' vessels entering service along with 3in A/S mortars and Type 2 DC's..... Even more so since the Japanese soon start to receive 5-8 TK/AO a month as reinforcements. Sheesh. I can only hope I find some way to be successful!

-----------------------------------------



CBI -
Seems pointless useing 4E for minelaying as I say it's advertised to the Japanese and they can easily send AM's to clear. Today for example DMS's cleared over 60 mines at Port Blair[8|]

Well now you know how you can use your subs effectively. Place a cordon sanitaire of subs around a location you will drop aerial mines. Then sink with sub launched torpedoes the Japanese AMs when they arrive to sweep the mines.

Regarding your concern about advertising aerial mine dropping without the presence of enemy CAP. It was the case in classical WITP, and to the best of my knowledge remains so in AE, that Allied planes dropping mines can not be intercepted by enemy CAP. Hence CAP may well be present, but because it does not make contact, the CAP interception screen is not shown. That would still give the Japanese notice of a minefield having been air dropped.

Alfred

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Well now you know how you can use your subs effectively. Place a cordon sanitaire of subs around a location you will drop aerial mines. Then sink with sub launched torpedoes the Japanese AMs when they arrive to sweep the mines.

That'll work unless faber stations AMs in his important ports.

[Speedysteve]

Tend to agree with Mike on this one. Also the nearer to enemy ports my subs are they more likely they'll be spotted and attacked with LBA. That increased risk coupled with the low potential reward (sinking an AM) doesn't feel good.
 
I thnik you're right on the LBA minelaying. I just don't see why the Japanese should always get blatant knowldge that I'm doing it. Kind of makes it pointless in game since the large amount of AM's can easily remove any mines laid. Bit different to reality when they closed down Japan's waterways.....anyway[;)]

[Speedysteve]

Hi all,

Landings -

This was an action packed day! The night period saw US heavy ships shelling the sh*t out of Wake Island before the Marines waded ashore. The good news is that troops casualties were very light with the landing.

CL Honolulu and DD Hammann hit mine's and AP Henderson run aground on some coral and will sink.

Japanese submarines tried to interfere 4 times but other than AK Alcyon being heavily damaged by SS I-5 during unloading all went ok.

-------------------------

Daytime -

With the Marines wading ashore and preparing to assault the enemy the US CV's were sailing to the west to ensure no Japanese ships attempted to interfere with the landings. Surprisingly they tried to......

2 x BB forces were located by FP's. To the west BB Hyuga led a force and to the south BB Yamashiro. CV raids mainly focussed on the southern force. Despite planting a reported 18 bombs and a torpedo into Yamashiro she showed no signs of heavy damage[&o] CA's Aoba, Furutaka and Kinugasa were not so lucky all heavily listing and dead in the water with Kinugasa later sinking.

Not really sure what Faber could achieve here to be honest (especially reacting against Wake which is hardly the Mariana's or Iwo Jima!)? I have susbtantial CV presence and no fewer than 3 x BB TF's. Maybe he was hoping for my BB's to bombard and then run off.....which they had but 2 of them (with limited ammo) are now back at Wake to cover the invasion.

I doubt Faber will hang around but if he does he'll find my 3 x CVE also with 27 x TBF ready to attack enemy ships.

So by late morning the men were ashore and assaulted the dug in Japanese 62nd Infantry Group. Fighting was hard and tough but ground was taken. By days end 1/2 of Wake was mine. The men are still in good shape and will hopefully take the Atoll fully tomorrow:

Ground combat at Wake Island (136,98)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 12243 troops, 191 guns, 262 vehicles, Assault Value = 494

Defending force 4362 troops, 10 guns, 6 vehicles, Assault Value = 154

Allied adjusted assault: 62

Japanese adjusted defense: 30

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
1272 casualties reported
Squads: 35 destroyed, 75 disabled
Non Combat: 34 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 8 (8 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1


Allied ground losses:
3677 casualties reported
Squads: 93 destroyed, 24 disabled
Non Combat: 170 destroyed, 49 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 2 disabled
Vehicles lost 17 (11 destroyed, 6 disabled)


Assaulting units:
6th Marine Rgt /2
1st USMC Tank Bn /8
5th Marine Rgt /1
2nd USMC Engr Rgt /1
1st USMC Parachute Bn /1
1st Marine Rgt /2

Defending units:
62nd Infantry Group
9th RF Gun Battalion

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Australia -

All being well tomorrow will find my invasion force off Port Hedland and ready to spill the men on the beaches! I wonder if Faber will react. Recon indicates a lot of fighters have moved out of Burma......

Port Hedland is still closed by 4E. Only help for the Japanese will come by sea in the form of CV's and BB's.

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Submarine Warfare -

1 missed attack (against DD Hibiki of all ships)

SS KIX left AKL Shinrei Maru badly listing with a torpedo hit off Phuket (love that name). In return she was damaged by SC CHa-23 and will return to Columbo.

[Speedysteve]

Gone from happy to absolutely f******* fuming!

Next day my Port Hedland TF's head there under the supposed cover of 5 x BB in 2 TF's and what happens...they get to Port Hedland and start retreating from enemy SC TF....so they retreat away from Port Hedland and then the Amphib TF's go back INTO Port Hedland space and get wiped out as had no cover. WTF?!? Not only do they retreat they retreat OUT of the protection of my SC TF INTO Port Hedland and get annihilated by the SC TF they were running away from. WTF?!?

Net result 3 months planning gone to AI w*nk. F'ng fuming with the sh*tty model. How and why on earth did that happen?!? I either drink wine or throw the laptop out of the window......

Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Hedland at 57,129, Range 23,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Shell hits 2
CA Suzuya
CA Kako, Shell hits 1
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1
DD Akizuki
DD Takanami
DD Hatsukaze
DD Yukikaze
DD Isokaze

Allied Ships
AM Cessnock, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
AM Colac, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
AM Geelong, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
AM Katoomba, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
AP Leonard Wood, Shell hits 35, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAP Empress ' Scotland, Shell hits 16, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAP Moreton Bay, Shell hits 1, heavy fires
xAP Esperance Bay, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Largs Bay, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
xAP Devonshire
xAP Lancashire, Shell hits 3, on fire
xAP Dunera, Shell hits 2
xAP Talma, Shell hits 3, on fire
xAP Rajula
xAP Rohna, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAP Amra
xAP Khandalla
xAP Tairea
xAP Chilka
xAP Takliwa
xAP Santhia, Shell hits 1
xAP Nova Scotia, Shell hits 1
xAP Empire Star, Shell hits 3, on fire
xAP Dunedin Star, Shell hits 1
xAP Empire Pride, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAP Glenartney, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAP Glenstrae, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
xAP Denbighshire, Shell hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Idomeneus, Shell hits 14, and is sunk
xAP Felix Roussel, Shell hits 3
xAP Cap St Jacques, Shell hits 12, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Poelau Telo
xAP Speelman, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Van Rees, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
xAK Tiradentes, Shell hits 3, on fire
PG Indus, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
PC Tydeman, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
AM Chevreuil, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
xAK Barossa, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Beltana
xAK Dundula
xAK Iron Knob, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Moonta, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
xAK Elisavet
xAK George Livanos
xAK Mary Livanos
xAK Michael Embiricos
AM Bombay, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
PG Lawrence, Shell hits 5, and is sunk


Allied ground losses:
6667 casualties reported
Squads: 121 destroyed, 183 disabled
Non Combat: 396 destroyed, 154 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 11 disabled
Guns lost 141 (108 destroyed, 33 disabled)
Vehicles lost 308 (181 destroyed, 127 disabled)


Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Hedland at 57,129, Range 21,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 1
CA Kako
CL Jintsu
DD Akizuki
DD Takanami
DD Hatsukaze
DD Yukikaze
DD Isokaze

Allied Ships
xAP Moreton Bay, Shell hits 38, and is sunk
xAP Esperance Bay, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAP Devonshire
xAP Lancashire, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Dunera
xAP Talma, Shell hits 1, heavy fires
xAP Rajula, Shell hits 1
xAP Amra
xAP Khandalla, Shell hits 3, heavy fires
xAP Tairea
xAP Chilka
xAP Takliwa, Shell hits 1
xAP Santhia
xAP Nova Scotia, Shell hits 3
xAP Empire Star, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Dunedin Star, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Empire Pride, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
xAP Glenstrae, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Denbighshire, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
xAP Felix Roussel, Shell hits 2, heavy fires
xAP Cap St Jacques, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
xAP Poelau Telo, Shell hits 4
xAP Speelman, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Tiradentes, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Beltana, Shell hits 2, on fire
xAK Dundula, Shell hits 2
xAK Moonta, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Elisavet, Shell hits 1
xAK George Livanos
xAK Mary Livanos, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
xAK Michael Embiricos, Shell hits 2, on fire


Allied ground losses:
6556 casualties reported
Squads: 125 destroyed, 198 disabled
Non Combat: 250 destroyed, 156 disabled
Engineers: 24 destroyed, 19 disabled
Guns lost 168 (74 destroyed, 94 disabled)
Vehicles lost 203 (90 destroyed, 113 disabled)

[Speedysteve]

Anyone any ideas?

[Smeulders]

How exactly were the TF's set up ? Were the convoys following the SCTF, what were the settings of the SCTF? It seems rather strange that the BB retreated without even giving fight.

[Speedysteve]

1 x CV TF - Hermes
2 x SC TF
1 x Transport TF (supplies)
2 x Amphibious TF
 
All TF were set with Remain on Station. All TF set to follow the slowest TF (Amphib).
 
Baffled on 1 parts of it:
 
1.) Why did the Amphib TF Retreat back INTO the Port Hdland hex into the clutches of what they were supposedly running away from?
1.) Where the **** were the SC TF and why didn't they follow the Amphib TF's as they should have?

[Smeulders]

Setting the amphibious TF as the lead TF might be a big part of the problem. It's going to be the first to arrive in the Port Hedland hex and if the Japanese TF is already there it's going to be the first to join battle. Never ever let the non-combat TF lead the others. The curious part is indeed that they had already retreated from the enemy ships and then returned, but that happens. If they got a destination set they will try to reach it, maybe the DL on the enemy TF wasn't high enough and they thought is was weaker/had already left again ? Anyway, this sounds like a really bad case of the retreat routines giving an illogical outcome.

[Speedysteve]

Hmm. Doesn't make any sense to me. Think logically about what you're asking? You're telling a slower TF to follow a quicker TF to a destination?
 
Also don't forget here though the problem is also that the Amphip TF's moved BACK into Port Hedland and the SC TF's were left 46 miles to the NW?!?
 
Going to have to think on ths one. It's not the lost troops that is the issue as much (although VERY annoying for 3 months lost work and will have to abandon northern Aus and go for something like NG) It's the lost AP's that are a real problem.
 
Not fair we redo the turn since not Faber's fault AI ***** up. Hmm not sure what to do on this one.
 
Have a very sour taste in my mouth about AE right now.

[witpqs]

One piece of advice out there is to set the TF's to tolerate absolute risk and direct movement (in case I have the names wrong, it's the two most extreme settings). That will minimize the automatic routing they do.

The other is as noted above, have the surface combat TF lead. The developers say that the faster TF will slow down to wait for the slower TF. An alternative is to have them all move independently but control the destination hexes each turn so they all stay together. The surface combat TF should be faster so should move first (I think).

Another is to put some heavier combat units in the transport TF. I'm not sure anybody uses BB's but a lot use CL's, etc.

Sorry Speedy. Maybe some of the above will help next time.

[Smeulders]

The faster TF will slow down to allow the slower to keep up. No matter which one leads, they will always keep the speed of the slowest, who is leading only determines who will be the first to enter the next hex. Most of the time, you'll want that one to be the one with the biggest guns.

The amphibious TF moving back into Port Hedland should never have happened, but the fact that the SCTF didn't engage is probably also the result of the order of your TFs. The Amphib enters Port Hedland and rightly retreats. All the TF following the amphibious will also retreat, following the amphib and probably not engaging the enemy SCTF because of this. The first one to return is again the amphibious one (though I admit it's illogical that it chooses to return), it get's beaten, retreats again, and instead of engaging the SCTF just goes to whatever hex the amphibious retreated to this time.

[Speedysteve]

Hmm. Not happy with this one guys. Understand what you're saying but that's just darn illogical to have the slower TF following the faster one and then having a TF retreat back into the hex it was moving away from due to danger. Know you're explaining the model as it is and it's not your fault though[;)]
 
Can honestly say in my 20 years of Strategy gaming this is the most illogical (IMO) and frustrating result I've had.
 
Still too p*ssed to think objectively on it now but will think on it over the weekend and decide whether to carry on with AE or to move on.
 
Thanks for explaining and I'll post on here in due course whether I concede (first time in my life) or carry on.