OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

[SGHunt]

Now, Ron, don't be rude to the nice man who is giving us all these pretty pictures!  [;)]

Jon - Comrade was talking back to me about defensive strategy; I think he was as much as anything trying to support the programming for the Russian AI and he makes some good points.   And he is right - I am in the attack mode!    

Comrade - I stilll think your suggested approach is difficult.   OK, you clobber two panzer corps with 500,000 men and many war machines -they fall back, damaged and in need of refit.     I know your massive counter will draw some forces away from Moscow, but who's defending Moscow against say four or five Panzer corps and 3 infantry armies?   I'll trade Moscow for two panzer corps and 100 miles of dirt anyday.

Now, more screenies, please, Uncle Jon
Stuart

[ComradeP]

Indeed PyleDriver, to each his own.

However, this isn't the first Eastern Front game on an operational/strategic level, so I still believe that tactics and strategies that worked in other games, like the TOAW scenarios covering Barbarossa, might work in this game too, even though it's a different game.

[PyleDriver]

Guess what I said holds true, buy your own guns and rack, and put it on the wall as you want...Me, I do have alot of spunk, my brothers never kicked it out of me...

[Smirfy]

Still not sure about the model, I'm not sure Germany could sustain such an intensity of warfare (which does not really help the AI). But despite that the game looks great. Not needing the Axis allies in the frontline kind of surprises me.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Still not sure about the model, I'm not sure Germany could sustain such an intensity of warfare (which does not really help the AI). But despite that the game looks great. Not needing the Axis allies in the frontline kind of surprises me.

It's because Pyledriver was very clever in avoiding repeating Fall Blau.

Axis minor formations in the front lines only became absolutely essential due to the incredible length of the front as the Germans advanced towards the Volga and Caucasus.

He's not playing that game. He also got rid of a bunch of salients early on, freeing up Germans for use elsewhere. He has a single, limited objective and everything is being geared around that. His means are tailored to his ends.

Therefore, the axis minors in his 1942 campaign can be limited in the same way they were mostly limited in 1941.

[Joel Billings]

Well, Jon seems to if anything have shortened the lines, not lengthened them, since he didn't move into the Caucasus and also straightened the lines out in the north. That saves hundreds of miles of frontline. Even so, you can see Hungarian and Rumanian units in the front lines in the south.

Jon and I did play an epic WBTS game which was one of the best games I've ever played. He's been a good tester for many years and many games. I just wish he learned how to find the folders on his computer, right Jon. [:)]

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
It's because Pyledriver was very clever in avoiding repeating Fall Blau.

Axis minor formations in the front lines only became absolutely essential due to the incredible length of the front as the Germans advanced towards the Volga and Caucasus.

He's not playing that game. He also got rid of a bunch of salients early on, freeing up Germans for use elsewhere. He has a single, limited objective and everything is being geared around that. His means are tailored to his ends.

Therefore, the axis minors in his 1942 campaign can be limited in the same way they were mostly limited in 1941.

I think you kinda miss my point. The intensity of Fall Blau falls along way short of what we have here which whilst it might be clever suspends belief just a bit. It seems a bit redundant having a line on the map that Axis allies cant cross yet Germany in 42 is strong enough to limit their deployment to @ 50 miles of front.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Well, Jon seems to if anything have shortened the lines, not lengthened them, since he didn't move into the Caucasus and also straightened the lines out in the north. That saves hundreds of miles of frontline. Even so, you can see Hungarian and Rumanian units in the front lines in the south.

Jon and I did play an epic WBTS game which was one of the best games I've ever played. He's been a good tester for many years and many games. I just wish he learned how to find the folders on his computer, right Jon. [:)]

What are they taking up 5 hexes? Im not sure offensive deployment takes up more frontage than defensive deployment. just an observation[;)]

[roman uk]

Both sides were close to breaking point at alternative times in dec 41/jan 42.

Many historians have argued a concerted push to Moscow to force the soviets to commit their reserves and battle on their production and population heartlands
as the better strategic choice for the offensive of 42. Others say Moscow was too well defended, but static defenses didnt seem to work well on the eastern front...

Pyledryver has effectively shortenned his lines and concentrated high quality units. Taking tula (t34 center) and voronezh, ryazan, rostov, etc. will hurt, perhaps MOSKBA next?

[Flaviusx]

Smirfy, how much frontage was taken in 1941 by axis minors? You had the Romanians in Odessa and then the Crimea, and I suppose the Spanish Blue division up by Leningrad, but mostly, it was Germans. Nothing at all like the hundreds of miles of front line in 1942. So, yeah. The length of his front in 1942 is of a similar scale.

PD has economized on formations both in Leningrad and near Rostov, too. (Although this has caused him some occasional headeaches.) His true concentration of force is from Vishny Volochek down to east of Voronezh. He isn't piled 3 deep along the entire front.

That said, I think his drive past Voronezh is questionable from an economy of force standpoint. I would have stopped by the river and shut down that part of the front to free up more forces for enveloping Moscow.

Edit: the unrealism here lies in the AI's reactions, or lack thereof. This is what's making it all look a bit too easy. Sending a big chunk of your armor to Rostov for giggles isn't helping the Soviet cause, either. I don't want to say PD is stealing candy from a kid here, but...

[Joel Billings]

Yes, I think that Smirfy misunderstood. I was saying the entire lines were shortened, and thus the AA didn't need to be in the front.

As for the AI. Yes, I can't argue that a decent human player wouldn't play much better. Can't think of a game where I wouldn't say that. Someone playing this game for 17 months (pretty much without a break) should be playing the AI at hard level if he wants a challenge (I think Jon is at Challenging, which is 40%-45 to hard). Will the AI get better before release? Yes. Will it get a lot better? Honestly, I don't think so. Compared to many games it's pretty good already.

[Joel Billings]

Flaviusx is right. The AA only took the frontline slots after the front widened with the move into the Caucasus. As of June 27, 42 they occupied only 60 miles of frontline (70 if you count the Crimea).

[Flaviusx]

Well, I'm realistic about this. I'm happy if the AI is good enough for me to learn the game and then switch over to PBEM. I think it will suffice on that score.
 
Maybe one of these days I'll take on PD for myself and then we can settle this hash the right way. [;)]

[SGHunt]

Well said!   Will this be an 'at dawn' sort of event?  [;)]

Don't forget we want the gory details if and when you go at it...

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As to pockets: I think I agree with Zorch. I have yet to see an AI in a wargame that can't be pulled into a trap with relative ease: pull back from a part of the line, creating a bulge shaped area facing your side of the front (so a bulge to the west), with strong armoured/motorized forces at the flanks. Let the AI move into the bulge, trap the AI units next turn with the forces at the flanks. Repeat at your leisure. A human player won't fall for that trick, but the AI usually will.

Well, the Romans did at Cannae against Hannibal, and the Austrians and Russians did against Napoleon at Austgerlitz....and they WERE humans...[:D]

[wosung]

About the overall strength figures in Post # 504:

I think the readiness rate is VERY high. 10 percent damaged tanks and planes seem to be far too low for summer operations.

Regards

[PyleDriver]

Good morning Russia, lol, hope you know the movie. Well it was another conflict...Armin is still a beast and swept from the north and returned to profide the flank. Kalinin is mine, and Moscow is in question...Another note, you have to keep your rear in order, thus the security unit. You don't want those little bastards cliping your supply lines...

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: wosung

About the overall strength figures in Post # 504:

I think the readiness rate is VERY high. 10 percent damaged tanks and planes seem to be far too low for summer operations.

Regards

Very perceptive. We recently added in the readiness totals so we could study this in the game. One thing to keep in mind is that each turn (week), 1/2 of all damaged elements are returned to the general pool. These then become available to be resent to units that are in need of replacements. This represents damaged equipment and wounded soldiers being sent further back up the chain from the unit repair depots and field hospitals. These items don't come back immediately, depending on the supply line status of the unit requesting the replacements, and whether the unit has been set to refit. I've had the sense for awhile that it's been too easy to get heavy equipment (especially AFVs) repaired and back to other units on the front. It's something we're looking at.

Not to deflate Jon's AAR too much, but something that everyone should be aware of is that although the later war scenarios (like the 42 scenario) have been very playable for awhile, we're only just finishing our final production review for the 41-45 campaign. For the later war scenarios we had some automated methods of trying to get production changes to show up in these later scenarios, but we knew they were only placeholder as we were waiting to get the 41-45 campaign set before going through each scenario to make sure we've accounted for things like factory movement and population migration. So we told Jon to go ahead and play the game so we could work on the basic AI reactions, but that the production numbers were likely to be off and the scenario would depart further from reality the further he went into the game. I can't tell you what's off, could be that there are too many or too few tanks being produced. We are probably missing some factories that moved east at the start of the war, but then we may have some other that auto grew larger than in the actual war. I'm pretty sure we don't have any population migration so the Soviets are missing some population that we would place east of the startline from Soviet cities that were on the west of the startline at the beginning of the war. I'm not trying to take away from Jon's AAR and it's importance in helping Gary improve the AI. Just don't get too hung up on balance yet. The game won't be radically different from what you see on the surface in Jon's game, but it's hard to say just yet how much different it will be once these details are finished off.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled AAR. [:)]

[PyleDriver]

Joel, did you really put that on my AAR. I'm tring to keep some order here, everyone is posting crap everywhere, then you do it. Start a new thread...Please...And yes I just told the boss to do it...So you guys can also...This is my stage...

[SGHunt]

Jon

Again, a good hit on Kalinin.   I thought that would take a week longer.

I was going to ask why not swap Armin's corps with one of Model's Infantry Corps and have Armin as part of  Model's army.   Two panzer corps being better than one, as I'm sure we all agree [;)], and you use the infantry for flank protection.   

But then I noticed you have 0 admin points!  

Would this be a good idea when you do have the admin points?   I mean, is it worth the cost?   What are the advantages of having the two Pz Corps under a joint army command?   I'm trying to get to grips with the C&C.

Thanks again for distracting me from work
Stuart