WWII - Sweden (Axis) vs England (Allies)

[AllenK]

Northern China, post moves.

[AllenK]

Southern China.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: AllenK

With the front now having all the properties of a Swiss cheese,

So the French front is firm but still elastic. [:)]

[AllenK]

CW debark INF from Red Sea to Suez.

The Communists launch their first offensive against the CAV in the mountains south of Sian. CW attacks Rotterdam. CW adds 7 points of naval support. Attack odds at the moment 13:6.

Battle and Blenheim 1 (both 2 tac factors) fly ground-support, escorted by Hurricane 1 (4 points) from UK. Germany has a number of aircraft available. Do any fly? CW has the option of adding the Hurricane IIa.

[Orm]

Both bombers in Rotterdam fly, escorted by the 6 strength FTR2. The LND2 is front bomber. Germany will target enemy bombers if they get any result. Stay as long as a the FTR2, or LND2 remain. Aborts if only the LND3 remain.

The FTR2 lands in the hex it flew from, the LND2 in Lille, and the LND3 in Brussels. If possible, that is (no overstacking).

[Orm]

I think Japan want to fly defensive support for their CAV. But what depends on the odds.

[AllenK]

Odds for the Chinese attack are currently 24:2, automatic.

[AllenK]

Hurricane IIa joins, so the final match-up looks like this.

[GeneralAdvance]

Confirming that Japan does indeed fly it´s LND2 in Chengchow to support CAV Div and return o whence

[AllenK]

First round: Axis 11, Allies 12. Allies choose to what to clear though on both rolls, so choose the Blenheim and HS 123.

Second round: Both roll a 9, which clears the He-111 through.

Third round: Axis 11, Allies 9. which clears the Battle through.

Allies abort.

[AllenK]

CW planes all return to the UK.

Not sure if there is a bug here. The Japanese weren't given any option to fly ground support. I can't see why not unless it's something to do with the USSR DoW and it being the surprise impulse. Didn't think that would apply to the Communists though as they have been at war for a while.

[Orm]

Seems like a bug. And the likely culprit does indeed seem to be the Soviet DOW on Japan. Any idea on how to proceed?

[Orm]

Germany will select the blitz table when it is time for the attack on Rotterdam.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: AllenK

CW planes all return to the UK.

Not sure if there is a bug here. The Japanese weren't given any option to fly ground support. I can't see why not unless it's something to do with the USSR DoW and it being the surprise impulse. Didn't think that would apply to the Communists though as they have been at war for a while.

Sounds like a bug to me. Won't be the first one dealing with surprise by a country already at war with a major power when some other country declared war on it. I remember when the Poles got the benefit of surprise on a ground strike impulse two of the game.

[AllenK]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Seems like a bug. And the likely culprit does indeed seem to be the Soviet DOW on Japan. Any idea on how to proceed?

Not really. I think we need some advice.

Looking at RAC, the following paragraph suggests this might be working correctly, if somewhat bizarrely.

15.1.
SURPRISE EFFECTS
AIRCRAFT UNITS
Surprised aircraft units cannot fly any mission that is exclusively against units controlled by major powers declaring war. Therefore, in the surprise impulse they can’t:

Fly a ground support mission to a hex being attacked only by units controlled by those enemy major powers;


Communist units are controlled by USSR. USSR has just declared war and the hex is being attacked exclusively by units controlled by USSR.

[GeneralAdvance]

Well, the "bug" seems to be in accordance with the rules.
This was a surprise to us but the wording is pretty clear to me.
I suggest we proceed, although it´s not my CAV Div on the line [:D]

[GeneralAdvance]

Although ORM begs to differ, claiming that the Communists are controlled by the Chinese.
They just use the USSR action limits.
If that is the case it seems to be an actual bug.
Any thoughts?

[AllenK]

Maybe but, again, RAC.

20. CHINESE COMMUNISTS
The Soviet player always controls the Chinese communist units and their activities count against Soviet activity limits. Partisans in China are always Chinese communist units.

The units are controlled by USSR and 15.1 is about unit control.

MWiF appears to be working in accordance with a literal interpretation of the rules. Whether or not it's in the spirit intended by the rules on surprise is another matter.

If the spirit is what is really intended, this will require clarification from Steve and a fix. Until then, this game is effectively on hold.

I've posted a question on Tech Support.

[Orm]

Cut from RAC:

15. Surprise
However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are
currently at war with. Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over,
hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse.

20. Chinese communists
20. Chinese communists
The Soviet player always controls the Chinese communist units and their activities count against Soviet
activity limits. Partisans in China are always Chinese communist units.
[Clarification. Communist Chinese units may not move if China takes a Pass action. This is true even if the USSR
does not Pass. If the USSR is incompletely or completely conquered, the communist Chinese activity limits are ½ of
the USSR’s - Dec. 29, 2007.]
However, nationalist and communist Chinese units go into the same force pools. They are built by the
nationalist player but he or she has no choice whether to produce nationalist or communist units.
Apart from the above (and the placement of reinforcements ~ see 4.2), Communist and Nationalist Chinese
count as one major power for all purposes

[Orm]

I am to tired to argue rules. Or maybe to grumpy. I don't think that this should even have gone into a rules discussion. To me it is pretty clear that it is a bug according to the rules. And even if it was not, then I think we can all agree on that it was not intended to be this way as MWIF plays. I think instead that our focus should have been on how to proceed.

Anyway. I think the rules I showed shows that it is a bug. Either way. How to proceed? Lets get on with that.

If we agree that it is a bug, and there is an easy way to continue the game as if Japan had given defensive ground support? Then I suggest we go with that. And if not then I suggest we continue on, as if even though it is a bug. We just report it and move on.

And if we disagree about the bug part then we move on anyway. And make a bug report and let the wise men sort it out, and let me grumble about it.

In short. Let the game continue!