Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Then have Matrix or 2X3 give him the source code so he can offer something of substance within context of the design... Can't really offer a fix without knowing, from a detailed technical level, how it actually works. I thought someone has already mentioned it is "unfixable", technically.....

Zoomie, as always you come back with useless answers. Thought you were a *designer*. [8|]

The war happened. There is tons of information of what happened and what Japan could realistically do. There is absolutely no reason at all to discuss any aspect of coding to talk about a concept. It is up to 2BY3 to decide if the concept can be converted to actuals and deliver code should they choose to.

A lot of stuff in WitP came from people proposing things in the forums. Right now, we have this monster thread yet in the whole thread, there are no proposals for a workable system at a concept level, there is just a bunch of complaints.

The old line ... "you can be part of the solution or part of the problem" ... the choice as always rests with you.

Mike seems to have a great deal of knowledge and could probably propose something that was playable yet kept the historic realities in check hence my comment to him.

I AM a designer and a software engineer. I strive to make CONSISTANT designs that address the customer external specification and requirements. The problem Matrix and 2X3 esentially created for themselves here was instead of a designing a research system that COMPLIMENTS the ugrade-system, they created a research system that CONTRADICTS the upgrade system. We have a FIXED upgrade design coupled with an OPEN-ENDED, essentially "ruleless and unbound" research system. If 2X3 is going to maintain the OPEN-ENDED research system then the upgrade system needs to be open ended as well. If they insist on maintaining the fixed upgrade system then the research system should be made to COMPLIMENT that system by allowing only research on the NEXT AVAILABLE model in the upgrade paths or someting along that line....

And this entire notion of the "letting the community" design the game runs counter to how the game was actually developed. Demanding that users come up with design solutions who have absolutely no idea concerning the internals of how the game works is simply ludicrous! You essentially have had an Open-Source design process with Close-Source development!! Solictiing the community for detailed bug reports is one thing, demanding design solutions is entirely another.

Want the community to give you design solutions ala a SourceForge project? FINE! Put the damned source code, build environment, and support files on SourceForge and make the whole damned thing an OpenSource project! You'll get more "design solutions" than you ever dreamed of.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

sorry... this sound like you really dislike this game ?
i mean, what is your problem... i allways will accept a pbem as the allied with a changed upgrade path and the shinano with 120 planes...
if you want to play against the computer, open the editor... i bet you could use it better than me, cause as a programmer you even know what is behind. Drop the job and have fun [:D] work is serious enough...

greetings

[Mr.Frag]

Again Zoomie, lots of typing and no answer ... one day you'll read one of my posts ... Let me make it simple:

"Complaint: Aircraft/Research semi-hardcoded, does not allow player flexibility as requested"

"Solution: <blank>

Is that so tough for you to grasp? No one cares about your coding skills. No one cares about your "I rewrote the world while GG slept" stories. Fill in the <blank> with something that makes sense AND is historically realistic.

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

You guys have the Kamikaze thing all wrong. You don't use a 3 ton, 200 mile an hour plane, you use a 68,000 ton, 28 knot battleship![:D]

Gotta love the Yamato, the biggest (and worst) kamikaze in history.

Sorry, thought this topic needed some comic relief.

I'd like too, but the plane needed to carry it into battle can't be upgraded to due dead end upgrade paths... [:'(]

[Nikademus]

I was against player controlled production, unless it was a toggable option. The BTR comments only cemented my reasons behind it. Players will inevitably do the same thing with it. They will cancel the medicore or bad designs and focus exclusively (within reasons and player tested strategies) on the better aircraft ultimately creating uniform (and ahistorical) airforces. Germans will have masses of FW-190's, US will dispense with P-39 and P-40 in favor of P-38, F6F goes in favor of F4U. etc etc.

Now that i've posted enough to be flamed. Recall that i "did" say, i was against player controlled production unless it was a toggable option. Problem solved. Those who wish to fiddle, fiddle, those who dont...dont.

My idea, nay "solution" for all the ruckas regarding upgrades/downgrades was a simple restrictive system.

Japan: IJN groups can only upgrade/downgrade to IJN aircraft
IJA groups can only upgrade/downgrade to IJA aircraft

Further restrictions:

Fighter groups can only change to other types of fighter groups/Fighter-bombers
Bomber groups can only chage to other types of bomber groups.
(further: LBA to LBA only......Dive bomber to Dive bomber only, Torpedo bomber to torpedo bomber only)

[DrewMatrix]

I'd like too (The 8,000 engine plane)

Yeah, I mean look at the Bulldozer thread. If 12 million people with dust pans can do the work of one bulldozer, then why can't 8,000 engines all put on a plane do the work of getting the Yamato airborne? I mean, it's not as though an infinite number of tiny bits won't do the same job as the engines on the Space Shuttle. [:D]

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Again Zoomie, lots of typing and no answer ... one day you'll read one of my posts ... Let me make it simple:

"Complaint: Aircraft/Research semi-hardcoded, does not allow player flexibility as requested"

"Solution: <blank>

Is that so tough for you to grasp? No one cares about your coding skills. No one cares about your "I rewrote the world while GG slept" stories. Fill in the <blank> with something that makes sense AND is historically realistic.

Give me the game source code so I can make an informed suggestion.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Give me the game source code so I can make an informed suggestion.

The testers do not have access to the code anymore than we have been given access to formulae. Given that no game designer would ever agree to such a demand such a request is less than useless.

[ZOOMIE1980]

Japan: IJN groups can only upgrade/downgrade to IJN aircraft
IJA groups can only upgrade/downgrade to IJA aircraft

Further restrictions:

Fighter groups can only change to other types of fighter groups/Fighter-bombers
Bomber groups can only chage to other types of bomber groups.
(further: LBA to LBA only......Dive bomber to Dive bomber only, Torpedo bomber to torpedo bomber only)

Since no one can make a "informed" suggestion because no one has access to the code or detailed design specs surrounding the upgrading and research designs, this is as good as any.

However the "research" system should compliment the upgrade system in some fashion. It is nonsensical to research the A7M when the A6M3 is still in research.

What was so hard about putting the BTR system in this game. I think that's what the loudest complainers have been complaining about. They read in the previews that the player was going to be able to fiddle with Japanese production, including aircraft research. Since GG did BTR they quite understandably assumed that was going to the basis of this system as well. It wasn't even close. Why?

So for those people, here is the plain and simple suggestion for Fraggo...

Design in and code in the BTR upgrade/research system.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Give me the game source code so I can make an informed suggestion.

The testers do not have access to the code anymore than we have been given access to formulae. Given that no game designer would ever agree to such a demand such a request is less than useless.

Then a request to submit design suggestion is equally useless.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Give me the game source code so I can make an informed suggestion.

The testers do not have access to the code anymore than we have been given access to formulae. Given that no game designer would ever agree to such a demand such a request is less than useless.

And a note of game formula. SSI used to publish almost every single formula used in their games. Why did that practice ever stop?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Then a request to submit design suggestion is equally useless.

Depends on how you word it. I dont rate your chances very highly given your track record of criticism.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Then a request to submit design suggestion is equally useless.

Depends on how you word it. I dont rate your chances very highly given your track record of criticism.

Given the extreme amount of player suggestions that have been incorporated into the game, it is quite obvious that 2BY3 are not deaf and more then willing to look at anything proposed.

It doesn't mean it will happen, but as long as you don't propose anything you are pretty certain what will happen then.

It's funny how when the chips are down and you ask them complaining to offer up something better, they clam up.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

[
And a note of game formula. SSI used to publish almost every single formula used in their games. Why did that practice ever stop?

probably because there wasn't an internet then where people like yourself for example might constantly comment on said formulae in a negative fashion and overload the server with your ideas on how it should be.

Thats just the formulae. The coding itself was never put into the manuals.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

[
And a note of game formula. SSI used to publish almost every single formula used in their games. Why did that practice ever stop?

probably because there wasn't an internet then where people like yourself for example might constantly comment on said formulae in a negative fashion and overload the server with your ideas on how it should be.

Thats just the formulae. The coding itself was never put into the manuals.

More likely that being "closed source" they probably realized that the formula in games was the primary determinant of game balance and thus playability. Basically, the arithmetic formula is quite likely the crown jewels of any game. Maybe they figured that out. It would not surprise me one bit to see a LOT of GG's old formula had found its way into Pentagon wargame simulations! I can even remember seeing copies of the War In Russia, and other SSI game manuals, openned to the detailed formula pages lying around the programming shops back in the day... They are probably a lot more sophisitcated now, but back then, they weren't all that advanced.

And if it weren't for the Internet, and people posting ideas on how "it should be" we'd be at the same rate of advancement in ideas as 1980.... Some of my best ideas for call-center managment, and reservation software came from internet user forums of people bitching about their software vendor's solutions and offering what at the time was considered ludicrous suggestions for improvement.

If you have no interest in technical solution ideas, don't bother to read the posts... If Matrix had a public "Developers" forum Capt Cruft, myself, and some others would likely be there rather than here, for sure....

[joliverlay]

Earlier in the post you asked for a proposal. Here it is.

Allow players to change aircraft types at will. This should be possible. If the code will allow it then add any of the following "extra" constraints.

1. Army must us Army and Navy must use Navy
2. Fighter must exchange for fighters, etc.
3. Same number of engines (2 engine for 2 engine)
4. Deduct experience for changing aircraft types outside of criteria 2 or 3.
5. Require discovery of preeceding aircraft types prior to secondary types.
6. Require PPs to change aircraft types.
7. Increase production points required to produce advance aircraft.
8. Use geometric or exponential or other increasing costs for larger numbers of advance aircraft.
9. Randomly (or not) make some designs very hard to produce.
10. Make it an OPTION
11. APPLY ONLY TO JAPANESE

Most of these ideas have already been used in either USAAF, BTR, BOB, or Pac War.

etc.

OK NOW YOU HAVE A PROPOSAL

Before you guys claim it could not happen, the Luftwaffe routinely changed back and forth from ME-109s to FW-190s based on available aircraft. Does anybody belive that Japanese units did not? I have read that old aircraft production (Nates) was restarted to produce cheaper Kamakazi aircraft and that some units downgraded for this reason.

OK....if the answer is No, then I have another proposal. IMPROVE THE AI!

Thanks.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Then a request to submit design suggestion is equally useless.

Depends on how you word it. I dont rate your chances very highly given your track record of criticism.

Given the extreme amount of player suggestions that have been incorporated into the game, it is quite obvious that 2BY3 are not deaf and more then willing to look at anything proposed.

It doesn't mean it will happen, but as long as you don't propose anything you are pretty certain what will happen then.

It's funny how when the chips are down and you ask them complaining to offer up something better, they clam up.

I still have no idea what you are after? I think the complainers here have been very straightforward about what they don't like. They want and expected a BTR-like research and upgrade system. Since GG designed and wrote a large part of that game, and the same in this game, they assumed that engine would find its way into this game.

So, GG and Co. have the code to the BTR research and ugrade system. Want a suggestiong that your team has actual stuff to use.....OK. Incorporate the BTR research and upgrade solution into WitP. How's that?

[Mr.Frag]

So, GG and Co. have the code to the BTR research and ugrade system. Want a suggestiong that your team has actual stuff to use.....OK. Incorporate the BTR research and upgrade solution into WitP. How's that?

And this models Japan's abilities how? [8|]

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I was against player controlled production, unless it was a toggable option. The BTR comments only cemented my reasons behind it. Players will inevitably do the same thing with it. They will cancel the medicore or bad designs and focus exclusively (within reasons and player tested strategies) on the better aircraft ultimately creating uniform (and ahistorical) airforces. Germans will have masses of FW-190's, US will dispense with P-39 and P-40 in favor of P-38, F6F goes in favor of F4U. etc etc.

Now that i've posted enough to be flamed. Recall that i "did" say, i was against player controlled production unless it was a toggable option. Problem solved. Those who wish to fiddle, fiddle, those who dont...dont.

My idea, nay "solution" for all the ruckas regarding upgrades/downgrades was a simple restrictive system.

Japan: IJN groups can only upgrade/downgrade to IJN aircraft
IJA groups can only upgrade/downgrade to IJA aircraft

Further restrictions:

Fighter groups can only change to other types of fighter groups/Fighter-bombers
Bomber groups can only chage to other types of bomber groups.
(further: LBA to LBA only......Dive bomber to Dive bomber only, Torpedo bomber to torpedo bomber only)

That is exactly what I want. Period. I do not want dead end paths just because the REAL LIFE japanese did it. I want the ability to re-write history in the game.

And yes, in BTR i was one of the players who created entire fleets of FW190's. Because I could do it and see if it made a difference. I had no Hitler or Tojo to answer to or bicker with. Of course I also produced lots of MC205's. Now that was a P51 killer.

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

ORIGINAL: Nikademus



Depends on how you word it. I dont rate your chances very highly given your track record of criticism.

Given the extreme amount of player suggestions that have been incorporated into the game, it is quite obvious that 2BY3 are not deaf and more then willing to look at anything proposed.

It doesn't mean it will happen, but as long as you don't propose anything you are pretty certain what will happen then.

It's funny how when the chips are down and you ask them complaining to offer up something better, they clam up.

I still have no idea what you are after? I think the complainers here have been very straightforward about what they don't like. They want and expected a BTR-like research and upgrade system. Since GG designed and wrote a large part of that game, and the same in this game, they assumed that engine would find its way into this game.

So, GG and Co. have the code to the BTR research and ugrade system. Want a suggestiong that your team has actual stuff to use.....OK. Incorporate the BTR research and upgrade solution into WitP. How's that?

That would be a programming nightmare in my opinion.