The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[Canoerebel]

Here's my prediction for Operation Hairy to the Bone:

GreyJoy's ships will arrive at the invasion hex in good shape. They will disgorge the invasion troops in good order. The invasion troops will be ashore in fine shape.

I do not believe enemy ships or aircraft will be able to pierce the protecting ships and aircraft to any meaningful extent before the troops are ashore.

But I am not sure yet what happens once the troops are ashore. If GJ has air superiority, I believe he's bringing enough to remain in the hex until hix next wave is ready to come ashore.

As ships disengage and prepare to retire from the invasion hex, there will probably be the usual amount of carnage resulting from enemy attacks.

Overall, I believe GJ wins the operation.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

There's massive scope for luck, of course, but experience is a MAJOR factor,

2nd Naval battle of Guadalcanal? Luck? Must of felt real lucky when the South Dakota's circuit breakers tripped and effectively took her out of the battle leaving the Washington essentially alone (besides the brave destroyers) Check your history mate, not much luck here. Superior leadership, early radar detection ,excellent fire control mauled a superior Japanese force. Luck had nothing to do with it.

I think you're missing the point.

IN GAME BB Washington is essentially a green ship in night battles. She will suffer in a night engagement. What happened to Greyjoy is not surprising, I've seen similar happen again and again. I believe this is entirely down to the dire experience ratings of Allied ships, which Greyjoy confirmed. The experience of Japanese ships now is probably 65 at the bare minimum - they start in 1941 with that after all, and I guess they might have had a couple more points since then (but see below).

I agree its rubbish as far as history is concerned. I dont get why yard queens like Mutsu are apparently finely honed engines of death in AE, while a ship like Warspite is distinctly average, but there it is.

Furthermore naval experience does not really go up much "on map", Washington is still green in 1944. Especially for capital ships like BBs, because they get into action rarely - DDs stand a pretty good chance of encountering bad guys in comparison so DD crews advance faster than battleship yard queens. New ships, like BB Howe and Richelieu and the Iowas, get higher experience as Allied crews on reinforcement ships get better as time goes on. Unfortunately the old 1942 and even 1943 capital ships will still be crewed by the Three Stooges until the end of the war, and that includes Washington.

I don't think I've ever seen an Allied SAG punch above its weight. I've seen Allied SAGs perform about as well as their foes, and I've seen them get ripped apart by their foes (a lot) but I can't think of many where I go, wow, they did good there! PG Soerabaja is an odd counterexample but I think I can explain that. That said I've never seen late war SAGs in action - I would anticipate Howe, Richelieu et al would do far far better.

Looking at the list of blown away ships and what was responsible that rader posted on his AAR, it looks like Washington dished out some pain at least, she didn't die alone.

Totally correct here-experience is everything in game terms. Allies ships brought on board before 1944 are all average to poor-while Japanese ships area all of course, manned by supermen. And on 1.1.44 any Allied warship that comes on board has excellent quality crews. This is why so many Allied players love the Fletcher class DD. It may not so much be that it is a super ship but that they are good ships with great crews and working torpedos.

I am sure it is a balance thing and can live with it. I want my JFB friends to have a chance. If the game was totally historical only the computer would play the Japanese side. [;)]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's my prediction for Operation Hairy to the Bone:

GreyJoy's ships will arrive at the invasion hex in good shape. They will disgorge the invasion troops in good order. The invasion troops will be ashore in fine shape.

I do not believe enemy ships or aircraft will be able to pierce the protecting ships and aircraft to any meaningful extent before the troops are ashore.

But I am not sure yet what happens once the troops are ashore. If GJ has air superiority, I believe he's bringing enough to remain in the hex until hix next wave is ready to come ashore.

As ships disengage and prepare to retire from the invasion hex, there will probably be the usual amount of carnage resulting from enemy attacks.

Overall, I believe GJ wins the operation.

It kinda depends on how long the second wave takes and how quickly the IJ can mass troops at the landing site. If every soldier in Japan can be sent there before wave 2 comes in, then that would be bad. If a bunch of Japanese troops are sitting ready to roll in strategic mode, they could be at the site in just a few days.

Of course, they are probably mostly in combat mode rather than vulnerable, but you never know.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: beppi

Just some information, i will also open a thread in the general forum as i conducted a systematic tests:

empty APA in a TF DO add a unload bonus
empty LCI in a TF DO NOT add a unload bonus
empty LST in a TF DO NOT add a unload bonus

i assume AKA work like APA (did not test it).

Thanks for testing...This is exactly as they said. Too many wild interpretations of this flying out there on the forum.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Come on, gents.  Surely we can agree that was an Allied naval victory.  I'd take those results anytime.  I guarantee you rader is disappointed.  He just lost roughly 8% of his battleships and 11% of his heavy cruisers.  Ouch!  Meanwhile, GJ will tweak his force composition a bit and continue.

And note that there were more Allied torpedo hits than Japanese..Certainly a draw if not a victory. All those damaged Japanese ships are out of the fight as well. And at this stage that is important.

[Houtje]

Good luck, Greyjoy. There will probably be many sacrifices to your Drowned god, but remember: 'What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.'

[CT Grognard]

Ironically in real life it was the USS Washington that sank the HIJMS Kirishima during the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal during the night of 14-15 November 1942.

Following a brutal First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal the nights before - which saw the loss of 2 US cruisers and 4 US destroyers versus 1 IJN battleship (Hiei), 1 IJN cruiser and 2 IJN destroyers, with many more US ships damaged - four Japanese CAs and two CLs had slipped into Guadalcanal uncontested since battered US naval forces had withdrawn.

The BB Kirishima along with CA Atago and Takao and CL Nagara and Sendai and 9 DDs approached Guadalcanal via Indispensable Strait; Halsey detached USS Washington and South Dakota from the Enterprise TF along with 4 DDs to counter them.

Admiral Kondo had split his force into four components - a bombardment force of the Kirishima and the Atago and Takao; and then three screening forces - one with DD Ayanami, one with CL Sendai and 2 DD, and another with CL Nagara and four DD.

The American force detected the Sendai group on radar, but not the rest of the Japanese ships; the Washington and South Dakota opened fire on the Sendai group using radar-targetted fire, but the three Japanese ships were able to retire undamaged. The four US DDs in front of Washington and South Dakota then ran into CL Nagara and five Japanese DDs; two US DDs were sunk almost immediately, with the other two heavily damaged (one would sink the next day) and retired.

USS Washington set a Japanese DD on fire with her 5" batteries; behind her, USS South Dakota suffered massive electrical failures rendering her radar, radios and some of her gun batteries inoperable.

Believing the US warship force defeated, Kondo order the Kirishima, Takao and Atago towards Guadalcanal - on a collision course withe the two US battleships.

South Dakota was silhoutted by burning destroyers and illuminated by searchlights and she was targetted by Kirishima, Takao and Atago, taking 25 medium and 1 large-caliber shells that knocked out her communications completely and she turned away from the battle.

With the Japanese ships concentrating their fire on South Dakota they did not notice Washington approaching to within less than 9000 yards of the Kirishima, she opened fire at close range and Kirishima was hit by at least nine 16" shells and forty 5" shells setting her aflame and jamming her rudder.

Washington then retired to the northwest to draw the Japanese force away from Guadalcanal. The Kirishima was scuttled a few hours later.

[CT Grognard]

There was luck involved.

The brave four destroyers did their part in soaking up the initial contact.

And South Dakota being lit up like a Christmas tree and attracting the attention of Kirishima, Takao and Atago made it possible for Washington to get within very close range of Kirishima and then hammer her with a well-targeted broadside (remember, Washington held their fire on Kirishima because the commander was afraid it was South Dakota, as soon as they realised she was Japanese they opened fire with devastating effect).

[CT Grognard]

I for one would be willing to play a historical game as the Japanese - DaBigBabes Scenario 28C (the one with the reduced cargo limits), with restrictive house rules to resemble historical situations and PDU off.

If only to stop the constant Allied fanboy bickering about "Japanese supermen"...

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard
If only to stop the constant Allied fanboy bickering about "Japanese supermen"...

[:D]


The effects of IJ warship experience, how much it's likely to go up over the course of a game, and the effects of radar are true, though, and extremely important. Especially in 1944, as the Allies have highly skilled crews then as well, it's just a shame Washington isn't one of them. But if Howe was there instead, maybe it woulda turned out differently - something that should be of interest to all players. It's not bickering, it's knowing how the game works. Managing expectations. I wouldn't expect BB Washington to do well in the game.

As it is judging from raders screen she didnt do that bad, apparently quite a few 16 inch hits.

I'd be curious how an elite Allied SAG does, one with 1944 arrival warships only, so their crews are all 70/70. I'm sure they'd punch above their weight, especially as they'd probably have a qualitative advantage in hardware even aside from the crews.

[CT Grognard]

Look, there are a number of things at stake here that the model needs to resemble.

In 1941 and 1942 the IJN surface assets at night outclassed the Americans. They were skilled at nightfighting, they had excellent optical rangefinders and expert gunners, and used flashless propellant. Their tactic of launching Long Lance torpedoes accurately at night at long range before opening up gunfire was another factor.

These tactics were all nasty surprises to the Americans.

So, yes, in 1942 the USS Washington for example should have significantly less experience at night fighting.

But I agree that there is something wrong with the game model if in 1944 the USS Washington's night experience has not increased substantially. After the initial mismatch, rapid US technological innovation and training resulted in US ships in 1944 that were superior to the Japanese at night-time naval combat.

The issue then is one of how quickly vessels obtain experience.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard
The issue then is one of how quickly vessels obtain experience.

Pretty much.

It's a shame there's no "ship training" option really, if you look at the day in the life of a battlewagon in WW2, they spent months on end training.

[Canoerebel]

This is probably an area we are just going to have to live with in the name of game balance. As crsutton notes, concessions have to be made to make the game enjoyable and competitive for Japan. A tweak of late-war naval experience might tip the delicate game competition balance the designers seem to have reached.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This is probably an area we are just going to have to live with in the name of game balance. As crsutton notes, concessions have to be made to make the game enjoyable and competitive for Japan. A tweak of late-war naval experience might tip the delicate game competition balance the designers seem to have reached.

Yeah, pretty much. I think ship training is probably overkill.

Which means its even more interesting to those who play in 1944 though. An Allied BB, even of the same class, is not necessarily equal in 44. Howe is way better than PoW, for example, and the later Iowas look to be rather better than Iowa too (though Iowa isnt bad by any means). People who like to micromanage their ship selection in SAGs might wanna know this.

Those fast BBs from the early war, like Washington, would be better left as CV escorts I think, where they can use their AA guns in sunshine. And if you fear night action in '44, it would be better to hoover up the crack crews that you start getting in the late war.

[witpqs]

How much experience do ships gain from shore bombardments?

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

I for one would be willing to play a historical game as the Japanese - DaBigBabes Scenario 28C (the one with the reduced cargo limits), with restrictive house rules to resemble historical situations and PDU off.

If only to stop the constant Allied fanboy bickering about "Japanese supermen"...

I am sure you would have a taker in about five seconds if you posted this on the opponents wanted board of this forum...

[JohnDillworth]

I for one would be willing to play a historical game as the Japanese - DaBigBabes Scenario 28C (the one with the reduced cargo limits), with restrictive house rules to resemble historical situations and PDU off.

If only to stop the constant Allied fanboy bickering about "Japanese supermen"...

I really don't have time in my life for PBM but I really like your style of throwing down the gauntlet. If some of the fires go out in my life I will consider looking you up. Well played sir

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Overall, I believe GJ wins the operation.

And if i don't...

[:D]

[Gridley380]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Overall, I believe GJ wins the operation.

And if i don't...

[:D]

GreyJoy, win or lose, you deserve to go down in the history books for this game.

This is, after all, a game. A very detailed, highly researched, and mostly realistic game, but still a game.

In Real Life a commander who proposed an operation like this under these circumstances would probably be cashiered if he didn't get a bullet or a rope.

In these battles of electrons, however, you stand at the feet of God right now.

Bravo Zulu.

[Cribtop]

First, good luck GJ. The eyes of the world are upon you and this amazing AAR.

Second, to echo WITPQS, is it time to resurrect the time-honored, "bomb the enemy held dot base behind the lines" training method? Using BB bombardments instead of air groups? Might be an interesting test. Tedious though. Perhaps someone could mod a "Bombardment CS" TF type?