The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[crsutton]

Well, just from looking at the power of Rader's CD guns, the issue is how GJ is going to resupply his troops as supply ships will have to face the guns just like the initial invasion force did. Perhaps he can get them in if BBs are in each supply convoy. But considering the equal number of AV for both sides, I don't see him blowing Rader out of that hex in just a few turns. This will be very interesting.

[JohnDillworth]

just what I've been saying for years, IJN experience edge is so drastically influencing those night engagements that they rule the Sea in 41 and they still do so in 45. Realism is thrown overboard here, it was never there and won't ever be because radar controlled firing would have torn the IJN to pieces at five times the range already the battle started off.

The technical advantage the Allied had from mid war on - aka radar controlled gunnery - comes never into play in a way you can even match the Japanese, let alone become as superior as the USN was in real life. And yes, I think this is only for game balance.

There is no way to train ships above that hardcoded level around 50 just from moving around, there is no good modelling of radar controlled gunnery (in fact, a beta patch changed the beyond visibility range firing into "fire at sight only" - I don't know what happened behind the scene though so I may misunderstand this) and so the IJN just stays in super hero state while the USN stays in dumb ass mode (except those ships that ARRIVE late war with decent exp).

Funnily enough it was BB Washington in this engagement, we all know what real life Washington did to Kirishima in 1942 , here in the game it is Washington in 1944 that gets blown out of the water. While SoDak was hit several times at what 4 or 5k yards, Washington was firing from over 10k yards and landed dozens of hits on Kirishima in real life. In the game I think I could accept the IJN performing better than the USN when being in visual range but the flaw starts right here, the IJN should be hard pushed to even get into visual range without being heavily hit already by excellently working radar controlled gunnery of the USN ships.

Maybe the code prevents a reasonable change to bring this closer (not close but closer) to reality or it is done to keep the IJN competitive throughout the war, I don't know. But noone of all those people on this excellent forum with so many experts on this matter around can really think it would be realistic to see those massacres all the time. Yes, some lucky die rolls also result in a USN victory now and then, but the majority of engagements just sees clear IJN victories. And so the game lets vintage WWI IJN BBs being superior to modern USN BBs in even at the end of the war. Oh well, would it happen to me, I could tell myselve once more to not engage the IJN with my ships.

My point was not only with the battle. I think that is easily fixed by bumping up the Washington's night experience. I read up a bit on her and the 2nd battle of Guadalcanal and her crew and particularly her gun crew were sharper than most, even in 1942. They could load 16 inch shells in half the time expected and they performed as if on a training exercise. Also consider that GJ's battle took place about the same time the Fuso and Yamashiro were pulverized. Seems American night fighting was just fine then? But my larger point is how di all the search planes, rad and subs, and the thousands of other aircraft, miss a task force of tis size that was at sea for a couple of days. That, is the most unrealistic part and that troubles me

[JohnDillworth]

Well, just from looking at the power of Rader's CD guns, the issue is how GJ is going to resupply his troops as supply ships will have to face the guns just like the initial invasion force did.

To quote the movie Starship Troopers: "It a game of numbers, and they have more" In this case GJ has more. Just keep sending ships big and small. Lose a few, GJ has more

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Something very strange happaned...ALL the leaders of the LCUs that have landed have been replaced by leaders with lower rank and terrible stats...what the hell happened!??!
I may understand that some of them died during the landings...but ALL of them!?!?!??! Com'on....

Just an example...everywhere is like that[&:][&:][&:]

Equally as troublesome, GreyJoy, is that there is absolutely zero disruption to this unit. Nada. Not an electronic sausage. I find that not only improbable, but impossible.

Perhaps this is linked with your leadership disappearance and should also be brought up for some bug fixing. Have you mentioned this to your opponent?

[pws1225]

Good point.

[Canoerebel]

My experience with invaisons has been that CD guns at a particular base or on a particular island become less effective with time. Thus, the same shore guns that ripped into the invasion fleet on D-Day are not quite as effective on D+1 and are considerably less effective or totally ineffective after several days.

That's not always the case - sometimes the guns retain some pop well into the future, but even in those cases the pop was considerably diminished over D-Day.

This makes sense, though. It's as if the invasion beachhead has been secured and the perimeter expanded, so that shipping isn't molested as much as it comes into shore.

Extrapolating my experience to this game is challenging since the number of CD guns is much greater than normal. Still, I wouldn't expect nearly the kind of damage that occurred on D-Day from D+1 forward.

[JohnDillworth]

"Equally as troublesome, GreyJoy, is that there is absolutely zero disruption to this unit. Nada. Not an electronic sausage. I find that not only improbable, but impossible.

Perhaps this is linked with your leadership disappearance and should also be brought up for some bug fixing. Have you mentioned this to your opponent? "

Stop, sit tight and don't send a turn. Let Rader know what is going on. Best wait on this until tech support has an answer. In the mean time I'll invite the rest of this lot over to my house to watch a movie. [:D][:D][:D][:D] Master and Commander OK or do guys want to watch something else?

[Cap Mandrake]

Rader;

Forgive me if you have done this, but are you certain they aren't "remnants" ashore? They will be identified as "36th Div/1" or some such thing. This happens all the time during amphbious landings. The AI unloads the combat strength first and the support components last with the original unit CO staying with the support units until some critical point is reached and then the portion ashore will become the core unit and the few stragglers on the ships will become the "remnant". At that point, the CO assumes command of the troops ashore and the modifier after the unit name disappears. In the interim, the AI assigns a junior officer to the remnant.

If you have PP's, you can put midling or even very capable leaders in charge of the "remnants" until the CO arrives. Note that the transports have suffered heavily, so many leaders are probably on board burning transports or the unit may have gone into the drink with the CO and have been rescued onto reserve capacity in the TF. Note also that the CO will stay with the support units unitl the great bulk is ahsore (maybe 95%).

You can find the unit parents using that unit button at the top. Once the unit parent is blocked from unloading by vessel damage (or inadequate naval support untis ashore) it is best to get the vessel back to port and disembark and then send back on a fresh vesssel. You may be able to replace the hot shot leader while at sea and get him back into the leader pool. Never tried that.

[Cap Mandrake]

Oops...I just saw the screen shot. There is something amiss.

Trading Vandergrift for a Lt Col but getting the 2nd Marine ashore with 99 morale and no disruption is a fair trade. [:)]

I'd say "stack overload" [:)]

GJ perhaps has > 2**32 units (or 2**64 if he has a 64 bit processor)

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

How much experience do ships gain from shore bombardments?

from nothning to not much. After the usual ongoing defeats by inferior or equal IJN forces I tried to find a way to increase night (day is no problem anyway) experience of my ships and thought about naval bombardments. Result was frustrating. The only way to get exp up is engaging enemy ships and this means your ships will die before they will ever reach IJN levels to be competitive.

Thanks! Bad news though, I guess.

[hades1001]

Greyjoy,

I have reported this bug a few days ago and it has been fixed by the latest patch. R7a i think.

tm.asp?m=3000595

[1108r7]
Fixed Cargo capacity for resources not fully used [MEM]
Fixed Naval groups on delayed ships shown on lists [MEM]
Fixed No pilot replacement selection from trainee [MEM]
Fixed Releasing one veteran pilot causes needed pilot count to go to zero [MEM]
Added Mouse-over on keep/upgrade factory will show the next air/device and when it it is due [MEM]
Fixed CS Convoy would not necessarily return to the correct destination when waypoints used [MEM]
Fixed For CS, not being docked at home base causes confusion for return trip [MEM]
Fixed LCU leader being lost on landing fragment swap [MEM]
Fixed Multiple sub-units being in same TF being merged [MEM]
Fixed Ship building at captured enemy base could be cancelled incorrectly [MEM]
Fixed Invasion auto-bombardment exhausting supply. Auto based on available supply [MEM]

[obvert]

With all of those ships lost, could it be that the leaders were ALL on ships that got torched in the second day of the landings? And that they were in the fragments that were lost? The captain goes down with the ship kind of thing.

The lack of any disruption makes me think this is not just a fragmentation issue. Losing the leader of the unit would cause disruption alone wouldn't it?

[hades1001]

And I just brought up the ship exp issue in WAR ROOM too. Looks like there is no effective way to train your early warships to the same level as those ships arrived after Jan 1,44.

And the radar control gunnery is not simulated in the game. IJN still rule the sea with old ships. Which sounds funny though.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My experience with invaisons has been that CD guns at a particular base or on a particular island become less effective with time. Thus, the same shore guns that ripped into the invasion fleet on D-Day are not quite as effective on D+1 and are considerably less effective or totally ineffective after several days.

That's not always the case - sometimes the guns retain some pop well into the future, but even in those cases the pop was considerably diminished over D-Day.

This makes sense, though. It's as if the invasion beachhead has been secured and the perimeter expanded, so that shipping isn't molested as much as it comes into shore.

Extrapolating my experience to this game is challenging since the number of CD guns is much greater than normal. Still, I wouldn't expect nearly the kind of damage that occurred on D-Day from D+1 forward.

Based upon my experiences playing the Marianas scenario, the Saipan battery was quite effective so long as supply held. Once supply failed, then the effectiveness of the battery changed. The Honshu CD batteries are a base 10 log more powerful, so I would expect significantly more 'pop' from them for the forseeable future.

GreyJoy-what's the "port" disruption at this time? Aerial port bombardment per se would be very strongly recommended to disrupt / neutralize those CDs before you land further troops.

[HansBolter]

I'm playing Iroman Japan v3 and after establishing fortress palembang with 67k supply I see the same effects on degrading efficacy of CDs guns WITH supply that canoerebel describes.

[Chickenboy]

What Palembang CD guns exist in that scenario (screenshot)? Would be interesting to compare the capabilities and reserve of these guns to those at Hashinato. Any disruption of the CD guns at Palembang that mar their effectiveness?

Also, what is the fort level in Palembang compared to Hashinato? Terrain? Both of these should significantly impact the resilience of a CD battery.

If the CD gun is not disrupted or out of supply it will shoot on. There's no discernable diminishing of effect just because the opponent has troops ashore, IMO.

I think you're comparing acorn-sized CD batteries to oak tree sized CD batteries and expecting the same observed diminishing returns. I think it's unrealistic to assume that you get that as there are many other variables at play with GreyJoy's game that you may not have experienced.

[GreyJoy]

Ok guys...double checked.
There are no troops left in the ships. Not even a single soldier.
No fragmented units. Nada
 
Plus Rader tells me he has the same issue. Since i landed all his LCU leaders at Hachinoe disappeared and got substituted by pure garbage.
 
For me this is a kind of game stopper. I cannot try to break his perimeter with these leaders...
 
We'll wait till Michealm tells us what to do...
 
[:(]
 
and a re-do of the turn with the newest beta?...you know that our orders could not be the same everywhere...and surprise in this turn was everything...[:o]
 
Bad luck really....[:(][:(]

[Cap Mandrake]

GJ;

You won't necessarily have to re-enter orders. It may be possible for Rader to upgrade, run the file he got from you, then enter new orders after file execution. There is no violation of secrecy in that case but he does have to redo orders for the turn after the landing.

It may well be, however, that the file execution will differ.

[JohnDillworth]

It may well be, however, that the file execution will differ.

It might. If it is vastly different you guys might want to agree to run it 3 times and take the result that most closely recreates the original turn. Other than the lack of disruption of course. IT should be close. There didn't seem to be anything wacky about the turn. BTW, is it the same turn with the Tokyo air destruction or the one after?

[crsutton]

Probably should be my new first rule of thumb. Never change a beta right before a big operation.[X(]