Turnaround? Lowpe (J) vs Tiemanj (A) Stock

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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Crackaces
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Crackaces »

had thought rebuilding units cost armaments, vehicles, and manpower points only.
Not supply. But reading earlier I saw a post where the supply cost of rebuilding destroyed units really hurt
Japan

For the IJ, One problem is the costs of building things and have them available in the pool. The other problem is
mutual for both sides spelled out in the Replacement rules. When you buy out destroyed units the fill out does come
from the pool but these units come under the replacement rules ...
Each Logistics base that the unit is within supply range of may send replacements, so there is an advantage
of being near lots of well stocked bases.


So the rebuild into the pools do not cost supplies but replacements of near empty TO&E's do ..

BTW) That in my opinion is the Achilles Heel of the IJ ..
The base with the HQ must have supplies that are at
least equal to twice the base’s supply needs plus the supplies that will be expended in creating
the sub unit, the supply base must be within twice the maximum range of the aircraft type, and
there must be planes in the pool equal to:
»» 10 + (plane build rate / 2)
If these conditions are met, a sub unit of damaged planes will be placed at the HQ’s location
and supplies will be expended from the base.. Note Japanese build rates are usually 0 when
production is on. Another subgroup will not be formed for the air unit until at least 7 days have
elapsed.
A maximum of 12 planes will be added to a group as replacements every 7 days.

So no supplies and you can build a gazillion whatever and it will be stored nicely in the pools .. but no active unit on the map will benefit ...
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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Lowpe
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lowpe »

The best I can find in the manual is excess supply may be used for replacements.

I found a post in an old thread saying the cost is 1 supply point per load cost for replacements. Have to watch that!

Hmm...
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Lowpe
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lowpe »

Turn is away.

Not really doing much this turn, other than being a punching bag.[:)]

Moving subs, and mines to potential choke points the deathstar may take as it plays in my backfield.

Lowered the altitude my CAP at Tokyo, sent out a pb & xakl to southern Formosa. Gave them a LRCAP of a squadron. I figure if I can shoot down 2 planes they earn their vp back (3-1), anything more an it is a solid VP win for me.

I wonder if the Deathstar will focus on ships, or perhaps hit my industry?

If the Allies were pursuing better tactics and strategies it would be game over. It is hard to believe he didn't move aggressively on Honshu, or cut off western Honshu (Japanese Islands or Luzon).

The Allies could really be using their fleets to slice and dice me in half isolating everything west of Vinh (I have to pay PP for crossing China's borders). Instead, we have this big operational pause, I guess it points to an invasion of Honshu is in the offing, but probably not for another month, since the Deathstar is off cruising.





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Crackaces
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The best I can find in the manual is excess supply may be used for replacements.

I found a post in an old thread saying the cost is 1 supply point per load cost for replacements. Have to watch that!

Hmm...

A nuance for sure but my third opponent rebuilt everything in Tokyo ... The bought out unit arrives in Tokyo ..
Now a few units drawing excessive amounts of supply through replacements in one place has unintended consequences that takes awhile
to fully develop .. but when it does supply distribution overall can get screwed up ... combine that with a focused
attack on Manpower and through fires destroy LI and suddenly a real problem develops ...

That over 20,000 supplies to draw replacements including aircraft is an interesting constraint .... when added to ground units replacements ...well .. it takes some thought ..
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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Lokasenna
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I decided to buy back a destroyed division from Hokkaido that I was unable to evacuate a splinter. The PP cost was very low, under 20 PP I recall.

It arrived today.

I had thought rebuilding units cost armaments, vehicles, and manpower points only. Not supply. But reading earlier I saw a post where the supply cost of rebuilding destroyed units really hurt Japan.[&:]

So, back to the manual. Page 233 says to rebuild a vehicle it costs 1 vehicle and 1 manpower point per load cost of the vehicle in question. No supply. Whew! Now it does take HI to build the vehicle or armament point (and it takes fuel to build the HI). Infantry and weapons costs armaments points equal to load cost.

So in general, the larger the load cost the greater the armament or vehicle cost. Manpower is so plentiful as to be not a problem.

So the real cost to be worried about rebuilding units is the ongoing supply drain from the rebuilt unit, and the HI cost which might take away from making planes.

Therefore, the question becomes, can I effectively use that unit to merit its ongoing supply cost? And, is it worthwhile spending the PP to rebuild it in the first place (as opposed to buying out an existing unit from Manchuko/China)?

Now then, here comes the question of sunk costs. I have a pool of 202,000 armament points so the HI is already spent. New unit armament costs going out one year will be 100,000 points. So that gives me a solid 100,000 points of armaments for replacing troop losses. More than sufficient, since it is unlikely I will be around in a full year.

Now Vehicle points I am in serious trouble with. I will never be able to replace the motorized support, and will struggle mightily to replace tank losses. [:(]

Last turn I banked a positive 3500 HI points and have 1.4 million.

So my real economic woes will be vehicles (too few); plane engines (worrisome if he continues to focus on their destruction), supply (always Japan's weakpoint), and of course the kicker victory points.









Image

Yeah, I saw that post too and was going to reply with a rebuttal but wanted to be sure first. You have it right. It just costs manpower and VEH/ARM. No supply. You do need sufficient supply at a base (greater than 2* required) to take replacements, but it doesn't actually cost. Or if it does, it's not documented.

And it doesn't cost much to feed them, either. In the screenshot here, just 4 supply/day currently (1 supply per day per 30 Supplies Required, rounding up) out of combat.

You could try stockpiling motorized support to try to cut down on the vehicle point usage.
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Lowpe
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lowpe »

March 15, 1944

A little target practice...

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Lowpe
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lowpe »

Allies get 3-1 in sweeps over Tokyo. No bombing at all. Just Jugs, Spits, Corsairs!

The Deathstar cometh!

An IJN Destroyer surges and knocks out a YMS picket task force near Marcus. We lose a super E to subs, but sink two in return.



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Crackaces
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Crackaces »

First .. the game has changed in many respects from the manual although the manual provides basic guidance
reliance on the manual totally will be surprising at least .. frustrating at worse ..

However, there are a few that have documented the actual software behavior rather than the designed behavior ..

From: http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/Supply_Us ... ound_Units
When a device is upgraded or replaced, 1 supply is used per load cost of the new device.
Load cost per device can't be found in-game, but can be found in Tracker ...

My experience with Allied replacements after buying out units aligned with the above .. also my 3rd opponent's
experience buying out a bunch of units and leaving them in Tokyo ...

Of note ..from the same wiki page
In combat, supply use seems to be correlated to losses taken. The better combat goes for one side, the less supply they will use. This makes calculating supply needs for combat units tricky, as many factors influence combat and thus the supply usage.
The range of supply use during combat is very large, one series of tests saw increases ranging from +5% to +300%.

Slogs like Burma and PI and I would assume home islands ... use supplies .. a lot of supplies ..

Thus I believe that if one is going to attack the home islands . it is pretty critical to reduce supply capacity ..or a WWI slog is assured ..


"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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Lokasenna
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

First .. the game has changed in many respects from the manual although the manual provides basic guidance
reliance on the manual totally will be surprising at least .. frustrating at worse ..

However, there are a few that have documented the actual software behavior rather than the designed behavior ..

From: http://witp-ae.wikia.com/wiki/Supply_Us ... ound_Units
When a device is upgraded or replaced, 1 supply is used per load cost of the new device.
Load cost per device can't be found in-game, but can be found in Tracker ...

My experience with Allied replacements after buying out units aligned with the above .. also my 3rd opponent's
experience buying out a bunch of units and leaving them in Tokyo ...

Of note ..from the same wiki page
In combat, supply use seems to be correlated to losses taken. The better combat goes for one side, the less supply they will use. This makes calculating supply needs for combat units tricky, as many factors influence combat and thus the supply usage.
The range of supply use during combat is very large, one series of tests saw increases ranging from +5% to +300%.

Slogs like Burma and PI and I would assume home islands ... use supplies .. a lot of supplies ..

Thus I believe that if one is going to attack the home islands . it is pretty critical to reduce supply capacity ..or a WWI slog is assured ..

I'll have to do a test, then. I don't entirely trust the Wiki - it wouldn't surprise me if that was just legend because everybody said replacements used up supply, therefore it must be true.
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Crackaces
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Crackaces »

I'll have to do a test

Aircraft replacement is the easiest to test .. especially dramatic is replacing 4E's and watching the supply go
down .. but IJ 2E's show a nice price in supplies that deduct as soon as you click the draw button ...
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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Lowpe
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lowpe »

A while back Lok tested and put out the exact costs in supply for drawing planes into a squadron. And you are quite correct that the supply drops immediately upon adding one plane to a squadron.[:)]

The load for an IJA 43 squad is 17 according to Tracker. So to rebuild a typical Division would be 5,508 supplies in addition to the HI, Armaments, and Manpower costs for the infantry squads alone. Given the other items in the TOE it starts to add up quickly.

If in fact that is how it works. And I am betting that it works like that, or close to that. But I haven't tested it.



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Lokasenna
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
I'll have to do a test

Aircraft replacement is the easiest to test .. especially dramatic is replacing 4E's and watching the supply go
down .. but IJ 2E's show a nice price in supplies that deduct as soon as you click the draw button ...

Actually already tested that, I meant I will have to test the LCU rebuild.

On the planes... sometimes when you draw them, the supplies are not used from the base you are drawing from, so it can be a hidden cost. I haven't checked to be sure that it is actually charging the base you are drawing from in those cases.
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Crackaces
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Crackaces »

On the planes... sometimes when you draw them, the supplies are not used from the base you are drawing from, so it can be a hidden cost. I haven't checked to be sure that it is actually charging the base you are drawing from in those cases.


That will have to be a part of the LCU test because the basic manual states that supplies can come from other bases
(The question being whether some algorithm actually deducts supplies from a pool ...
Each Logistics base that the unit is within supply range of may send replacements, so there is an advantage
of being near lots of well stocked bases

Again .. one of my opponents complained very loudly that stacking all his units to be rebuilt in Tokyo had a very
detrimental effect sucking supplies from everywhere on Honshu .. soon bases were starving for supplies ...
I can not confirm or deny the actual software behavior .. I only can say I saw the victory screen [8D]
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Is it possible the supply usage was not for replacements, but for the initial internal organic supply load into new LCUs? How many did he rebuild at once? If that's the case the supplies weren't lost, only moved.
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Lokasenna
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
On the planes... sometimes when you draw them, the supplies are not used from the base you are drawing from, so it can be a hidden cost. I haven't checked to be sure that it is actually charging the base you are drawing from in those cases.


That will have to be a part of the LCU test because the basic manual states that supplies can come from other bases
(The question being whether some algorithm actually deducts supplies from a pool ...
Each Logistics base that the unit is within supply range of may send replacements, so there is an advantage
of being near lots of well stocked bases

Again .. one of my opponents complained very loudly that stacking all his units to be rebuilt in Tokyo had a very
detrimental effect sucking supplies from everywhere on Honshu .. soon bases were starving for supplies ...
I can not confirm or deny the actual software behavior .. I only can say I saw the victory screen [8D]

Right, it's in the cases where the replacement aircraft is being drawn from a nearby base that I haven't tested extensively. I did do some looking around when replacing aircraft near Japan one time and noticing the supply pool wasn't dropping... I only checked Tokyo, though, and it didn't drop. Doesn't mean it was pulling from Tokyo.

I actually have an isolated base right now with an IJA division at it that can take some replacements, with only static LCU supply usage and no planes. When I have the turn from the moose, I will be able to tell if taking LCU replacements uses supply.
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Alfred »

Just what is the point of anyone who knows how things operate bothering to post.
 
1.  You don't believe what Crackaces is telling you from actual experience.  Probably because his correct comments don't fit into your prejudices.
2.  You don't accept what previous forum posts from Japanese logistic focussed players such as PaxMondo.  Probably because he doesn't play and write up an AAR.  After all only PBEM players could possibly know  how the game plays out.
3.  You don't accept what I have written before on this subject in various threads and in particular in my 2011 Logistics 101 thread.  After all I'm not a dev so how could I possible be correct about anything.
4.  You don't accept what devs such as Treespider, michaelm and Big62.  They must be biased.
5.  You don't accept what the manual states on the subject preferring instead to selectively misrepresent part of what the manual states.
 
No just go ahead with your vanity tests which will not be properly constructed.
 
It costs supply to "purchase" replacement devices to bring a LCU back up to it's TOE.
 
Alfred
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Just what is the point of anyone who knows how things operate bothering to post.

1.  You don't believe what Crackaces is telling you from actual experience.  Probably because his correct comments don't fit into your prejudices.
2.  You don't accept what previous forum posts from Japanese logistic focussed players such as PaxMondo.  Probably because he doesn't play and write up an AAR.  After all only PBEM players could possibly know  how the game plays out.
3.  You don't accept what I have written before on this subject in various threads and in particular in my 2011 Logistics 101 thread.  After all I'm not a dev so how could I possible be correct about anything.
4.  You don't accept what devs such as Treespider, michaelm and Big62.  They must be biased.
5.  You don't accept what the manual states on the subject preferring instead to selectively misrepresent part of what the manual states.

No just go ahead with your vanity tests which will not be properly constructed.

It costs supply to "purchase" replacement devices to bring a LCU back up to it's TOE.

Alfred

Show me where you definitively answered this, Oh Wise Master. We looked in your Logistics 101 thread when this came up last time, but to no avail.

Numbers don't lie, Great One. You don't need exquisitely crafted test beds to get a general read on whether something is happening or not.

Stop being an arse. You accuse me of vanity tests, but you're doing the exact same thing with your high-handed manner and numbered list of assumptions and inflated sense of importance. After all, if you haven't said it, then it can't be true. Isn't that exactly what you're accusing me of doing?

Maybe you should put your gloves back on.
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Rio Bravo »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Just what is the point of anyone who knows how things operate bothering to post.

1.  You don't believe what Crackaces is telling you from actual experience.  Probably because his correct comments don't fit into your prejudices.
2.  You don't accept what previous forum posts from Japanese logistic focussed players such as PaxMondo.  Probably because he doesn't play and write up an AAR.  After all only PBEM players could possibly know  how the game plays out.
3.  You don't accept what I have written before on this subject in various threads and in particular in my 2011 Logistics 101 thread.  After all I'm not a dev so how could I possible be correct about anything.
4.  You don't accept what devs such as Treespider, michaelm and Big62.  They must be biased.
5.  You don't accept what the manual states on the subject preferring instead to selectively misrepresent part of what the manual states.

No just go ahead with your vanity tests which will not be properly constructed.

It costs supply to "purchase" replacement devices to bring a LCU back up to it's TOE.

Alfred

Alfred-

For months now I've read numerous posts from you within which you are rude and abusive to others.

I believe being extremely knowledgeable in a particular field and being sarcastic to others are two different things. Being knowledgeable does not give one a right to be cruel to others.

You probably won't accept that you need to improve your social skills probably due to your arrogance.

I realize that I will no doubt make a few enemies by making this post. So be it, I am tired of you being a bully.

-Terry

P.S. Lowpe, I apologize to you for feeling compelled to make this post on your thread. I have said what I believed needed to be said to Alfred by someone and I won't post on this subject in your AAR anymore.


"No one throws me my own guns and tells me to run. No one."

-Bret (James Coburn); The Magnificent Seven
Alfred
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RE: Unorthodox

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Alfred

Just what is the point of anyone who knows how things operate bothering to post.

1.  You don't believe what Crackaces is telling you from actual experience.  Probably because his correct comments don't fit into your prejudices.
2.  You don't accept what previous forum posts from Japanese logistic focussed players such as PaxMondo.  Probably because he doesn't play and write up an AAR.  After all only PBEM players could possibly know  how the game plays out.
3.  You don't accept what I have written before on this subject in various threads and in particular in my 2011 Logistics 101 thread.  After all I'm not a dev so how could I possible be correct about anything.
4.  You don't accept what devs such as Treespider, michaelm and Big62.  They must be biased.
5.  You don't accept what the manual states on the subject preferring instead to selectively misrepresent part of what the manual states.

No just go ahead with your vanity tests which will not be properly constructed.

It costs supply to "purchase" replacement devices to bring a LCU back up to it's TOE.

Alfred

Show me where you definitively answered this, Oh Wise Master. We looked in your Logistics 101 thread when this came up last time, but to no avail.

Section D(4) of the Logistics 101 thread. I quote it in full.

(D.4) Cost of replacements

The basic supply cost for a LCU replacement device is the load cost.

For air units, the supply cost for each replacement airframe depends on the type of airframe:

• 12 supply points for fighter, fighter bomber
• 15 supply points for dive bomber, torpedo bomber, float plane, float fighter
• 18 supply points for night fighter, recon
• 30 supply points for heavy bomber, medium bomber, light bomber, attack bomber, transport, patrol

Thus the previously mentioned 12 plane Liberator squadron (see D.2 above) consumed 96 supply points to fly the mission. If the squadron had 4 planes shot down, it would need an additional 120 supply points to replace it’s losses.


That first sentence is rather direct and unambiguous. Which means that your statement:

"We looked in your Logistics 101 thread when this came up last time, but to no avail"

is either a lie or your comprehension failed you.



Numbers don't lie, Great One. You don't need exquisitely crafted test beds to get a general read on whether something is happening or not.

Yet you often come up with inaccurate answers. Considering how often you "test", numbers obviously do lie in your case. In any case where did I say anything about exquisitely crafted test beds. You can't control the variables in your "test" ergo your test is not reliable. Bullwinkle in post #5374 mentioned a variable which you cannot control. So you will come up with a test result which is not reliable and put that as conclusive evidence against the empirical comments already provided in this very same thread by Crackaces in 5 posts.

Stop being an arse. You accuse me of vanity tests, but you're doing the exact same thing with your high-handed manner and numbered list of assumptions and inflated sense of importance.

Lovely language. Did we learn this language at home or at school or on the streets?

Being somewhat emotional with your non logical thought here. I am not doing any vanity tests so whatever I am doing it is clearly not the same thing as what you are doing. Apples and oranges are not the same thing.

Very subjective assessment of me having an "inflated sense of importance" considering the 5 other names of people who are being dismissed. Of course you would have had to do some research to have come up with 4 of those names but instead you had already consigned this issue to "legend" in post #5369. By dismissing the "facts" which are pointed out by others and insisting on running your own flawed "test", it is you who has the "inflated sense of importance".


After all, if you haven't said it, then it can't be true. Isn't that exactly what you're accusing me of doing?

Need to put words in my mouth in order to justify your emotional and illogical response. What about the other 5 individuals I named, and I could have given you more but they are amongst the most prominent contributors to this issue. They are all reliable posters, three of them being actual devs, so one needs to have overwhelming evidence to the contrary to treat their posts as wrong.

Unlike you, I do spend the necessary time researching before posting. My posts are quite accurate. and stand by themselves. Whatever time you put in researching before posting is inadequate because your posts are not sufficiently accurate to stand by themselves.

Before making my previous post (#5374), I spent about 4 hours on homework. Firstly, I did look up my 2011 logistics 101 thread because I was certain I had addressed the issue then and it would have been a significant lacuna if I had not. I was relieved to see that I had addressed it there so obviously you had not properly looked at it when in the past you had tested for aircraft replacements (posts #5371 [referred to by Lowpe], 5372 [and no it isn't a "hidden" cost as claimed by you] and the subsequent to mine, post #5375 [which shows how ramshackle is your "testing" regime]).

Secondly, just in case I was incorrect in my logistics thread, I rechecked the evidence. I went through the entire manual and reread very carefully the nine sections of the manual which comment on replacing LCU devices. This satisfied me that the manual does indeed state supply is consumed in taking on replacement devices.

Thirdly, I searched the forum for both non dev and dev comments on the issue. The former to see whether the old post Lowpe referred to might came from a reliable or non reliable poster. Found the lengthy and detailed posts generally came from reliable posters. Decided to choose PaxMondo as a representative voice because not only had he made several detailed posts on the subject but they all used Japanese exemplars and thus directly rebutting the inference Lowpe was making that the Japanese replacement rules were different with respect to supply consumption. Found many dev posts on the subject, those from Treespider (who wrote the manual) and BigJ62 (who wrote the relevant logistics code) being most on point. Found one from michaelm which dealt only with a Japanese LCU, just to lay to rest any idea that the code treats the Japanese differently.

So exactly how much research did you do? Any was this research just you do doing your flawed vanity testing or misreading what is documented in the manual or on the forum.

What I am accusing you is:

  • being inaccurate, again, in your posts (post #5365 encapsulating the incorrect answers perfectly)
  • effectively calling Crackaces a liar by not accepting at face value his empirical statements contained in posts #5361, #5364, #5368, #5370 and #5373 that supply is consumed in taking on replacement devices
  • not doing proper research before posting and thereby yourself contributing to another AE urban myth
[/color]

Maybe you should put your gloves back on.


Alfred
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RE: Unorthodox

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