Deja Vu All Over Again - apbarog(J) vs OPilot(A)

[pontiouspilot]

It's too bad Wasp not in the hit mix.....Lady Lex and Sara much tougher. Which Japanese CVs/CVLs are still in operation? Overall I think you can be very pleased with the result! Even if Lex and Sara get away your opponent will be down to very few active carriers for a few months.

Cheers

[apbarog]

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

It's too bad Wasp not in the hit mix.....Lady Lex and Sara much tougher. Which Japanese CVs/CVLs are still in operation? Overall I think you can be very pleased with the result! Even if Lex and Sara get away your opponent will be down to very few active carriers for a few months.

Cheers

I've only lost one of my big carriers so far. We exchanged one big carrier in an early battle. The US also lost a big carrier to a sub. Hornet and Enterprise were both previously damaged but not sunk. I hope to finish off Lexington and Saratoga. If I can manage that, the Allied plans for an offensive will be limited for awhile. I'd expect OPilot to go places where he doesn't need carriers, like to Port Moresby and New Guinea, and/or past Horn Island towards Darwin.

But first things first.

[apbarog]

Got an email from OPilot, Commander of the Allied Forces.

"The worse nightmare has come true for the USN."

He'll be working on the turn tomorrow. We shall see how day 2 of the naval battle of Wake turns out.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: apbarog

Got an email from OPilot, Commander of the Allied Forces.

"The worse nightmare has come true for the USN."

He'll be working on the turn tomorrow. We shall see how day 2 of the naval battle of Wake turns out.

Well done apbarog, a nicely executed op. I agree you got a bit unlucky with the hit rates.

[Evoken]

I facepalm everytime i see an Allied player doing an operation like this. I havent been keeping up with the AAR completely idk where Enterprise , Hornet and Yorktown are or British Carriers. But why do allied players do this ?

If you dont know where KB is you do not commit your most important assets to battle unless you can take on KB and not have a disaster like this. Well done Apbarog [&o] , you should have carrier superiority for a long time now. Combined with LBA from islands , you should be able to get another victory like this in 43 or 44

[apbarog]

ORIGINAL: Evoken

I facepalm everytime i see an Allied player doing an operation like this. I havent been keeping up with the AAR completely idk where Enterprise , Hornet and Yorktown are or British Carriers. But why do allied players do this ?

If you dont know where KB is you do not commit your most important assets to battle unless you can take on KB and not have a disaster like this. Well done Apbarog [&o] , you should have carrier superiority for a long time now. Combined with LBA from islands , you should be able to get another victory like this in 43 or 44

In our conversation, OPilot felt that he stayed too long at Wake, staying to pick up the defeated invaders. He did a superb job picking them all up in one day, but it was one day too many. If the invasion had succeeded, the fleet would have left a day sooner, and moving 10 or 12 hexes a day like they did move, they would have avoided my ambush.

He thought that he could get in and get out quickly, but I was lurking down by Tarawa. He thinks that I probably came from Truk, but no difference. I could have gotten there from Truk just as quickly.

My #1 priority in the game was to eliminate as many US carriers as possible as early as possible. My early expansion into the South Pacific was done to draw the carriers to an early battle. That mostly failed. Depending on how the next turn plays out, I may still accomplish that goal.

My #2 priority was to isolate China in a way that would starve the Chinese of supply for most of, if not all of, the war. That is a work in progress.

[Evoken]

ORIGINAL: apbarog

ORIGINAL: Evoken

I facepalm everytime i see an Allied player doing an operation like this. I havent been keeping up with the AAR completely idk where Enterprise , Hornet and Yorktown are or British Carriers. But why do allied players do this ?

If you dont know where KB is you do not commit your most important assets to battle unless you can take on KB and not have a disaster like this. Well done Apbarog [&o] , you should have carrier superiority for a long time now. Combined with LBA from islands , you should be able to get another victory like this in 43 or 44

In our conversation, OPilot felt that he stayed too long at Wake, staying to pick up the defeated invaders. He did a superb job picking them all up in one day, but it was one day too many. If the invasion had succeeded, the fleet would have left a day sooner, and moving 10 or 12 hexes a day like they did move, they would have avoided my ambush.

He thought that he could get in and get out quickly, but I was lurking down by Tarawa. He thinks that I probably came from Truk, but no difference. I could have gotten there from Truk just as quickly.

My #1 priority in the game was to eliminate as many US carriers as possible as early as possible. My early expansion into the South Pacific was done to draw the carriers to an early battle. That mostly failed. Depending on how the next turn plays out, I may still accomplish that goal.

My #2 priority was to isolate China in a way that would starve the Chinese of supply for most of, if not all of, the war. That is a work in progress.

I still dont understand the betting Carriers for such small margin of error , its almost like a reverse midway except USN has no goals to drag KB into battle. What was his strategic goal ? One possible idea i can see is trying to get eyes towards Marshalls and Truk which you can achieve by approaching from south with so many better and numerous atolls. It would have been much safer to recon southern atolls , take it with a surprise force , put down some PBY on naval search and if KB is not spotted after a few days continue operations safely with no risk to carriers.

Another good option would be to build up Cooktown in Australia and operate your carriers under LBA cover , go for Port Moresby or Milne Bay.

[apbarog]

ORIGINAL: Evoken

ORIGINAL: apbarog

ORIGINAL: Evoken

I facepalm everytime i see an Allied player doing an operation like this. I havent been keeping up with the AAR completely idk where Enterprise , Hornet and Yorktown are or British Carriers. But why do allied players do this ?

If you dont know where KB is you do not commit your most important assets to battle unless you can take on KB and not have a disaster like this. Well done Apbarog [&o] , you should have carrier superiority for a long time now. Combined with LBA from islands , you should be able to get another victory like this in 43 or 44

In our conversation, OPilot felt that he stayed too long at Wake, staying to pick up the defeated invaders. He did a superb job picking them all up in one day, but it was one day too many. If the invasion had succeeded, the fleet would have left a day sooner, and moving 10 or 12 hexes a day like they did move, they would have avoided my ambush.

He thought that he could get in and get out quickly, but I was lurking down by Tarawa. He thinks that I probably came from Truk, but no difference. I could have gotten there from Truk just as quickly.

My #1 priority in the game was to eliminate as many US carriers as possible as early as possible. My early expansion into the South Pacific was done to draw the carriers to an early battle. That mostly failed. Depending on how the next turn plays out, I may still accomplish that goal.

My #2 priority was to isolate China in a way that would starve the Chinese of supply for most of, if not all of, the war. That is a work in progress.

I still dont understand the betting Carriers for such small margin of error , its almost like a reverse midway except USN has no goals to drag KB into battle. What was his strategic goal ? One possible idea i can see is trying to get eyes towards Marshalls and Truk which you can achieve by approaching from south with so many better and numerous atolls. It would have been much safer to recon southern atolls , take it with a surprise force , put down some PBY on naval search and if KB is not spotted after a few days continue operations safely with no risk to carriers.

Another good option would be to build up Cooktown in Australia and operate your carriers under LBA cover , go for Port Moresby or Milne Bay.

I agree with you. The rewards weren't worth the risk. I'd been anticipating, with just a guess, that he'd land in the Tarawa/Tabiteuea area, and had KB loitering down there for over a month. That was the most logical move, I thought. KB was just close enough to intervene with his delay at Wake.

[apbarog]

12 Nov 42

I set my battleship TF to patrol 7 hexes to the ENE of yesterday's position. I set my 2 carrier TFs to follow the battleship TF, hoping that if an enemy TF is run into, the battleships would engage. First the battleship TF ran into what looked like most of Saratoga's escorts, with Saratoga having detached with South Dakota and 4 destroyers. It began at 26,000 yards with a maximum visibility of 11,000 yards. The range was closed down to 16,000 yards where the Allied radar detected the Japanese. The range continued to close to 12,000 yards where the Allies attempted to evade combat. The range then increased until the Allied TF escaped.

Then, during the day, the Japanese battleship TF ran into CV Wasp, BB Washington, cruisers New Orleans and Atlanta, and 9 destroyers. The fight started at 26,000 yards where the Allied TF spotted the Japanese. The Allied TF then attempted to evade combat, and the range increased to 30,000 yards and the Allies escaped. Disappointing. Even worse, the Japanese battleship TF then decided to retire to Wake, where I had set the home port. The decision had to be based on fuel. The ships hadn't fired a shot yet. Since KB was set to follow the battleships they did so. This resulted in the task forces being slightly west of where I intended them to be. That difference turned out to be irrelevant for the air strikes that followed, but it did increase the distance to the enemy when considering what to do for the next turn.

In the morning, a relatively small strike, compared to yesterday, went after enemy ships closest to Midway.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Midway Island at 155,97

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29
B5N2 Kate x 18
D3A1 Val x 45

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 5 damaged
D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
BB North Carolina, Bomb hits 4
CA San Francisco
CA Minneapolis
CA Houston

An oddly fragmented strike followed, with 1 Kate escorted by 11 Zeros, running into 8 Wildcats. Multiple Zeros were shot down. The Kate dropped a torpedo that was scrounged up somewhere, but it missed Lexington, which now was noted to have heavy fires and heavy damage, and with no other ships spotted with it.

Another strike was sent out to a closer TF, one with already damaged South Dakota and Saratoga.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Kure Island at 152,99

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 54
D3A1 Val x 11
D3A2 Val x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 2 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak
D3A2 Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
BB South Dakota, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Henley, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Jarvis, Bomb hits 1
DD Russell
DD Selfridge

Carrier support unable to supply air cover..
Ammo storage explosion on CV Saratoga
Fuel storage explosion on CV Saratoga
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CV Saratoga

Saratoga and South Dakota have to be crippled. I wouldn't be surprised if both sink or are scuttled immediately.

7 more Kates then went after Lexington but ran into 4 Wildcats. Most Kates were shot down. 2 Kates bombed but missed. 13 Vals then arrived over the same TF but ran into 2 Wildcats, and about half of the Vals were shot down. Bombs missed Lexington but a bomb did hit North Carolina.

Not all bombers flew today.

Total air losses for today were 15 Vals (10 by flak), 11 Zeros and 5 Kates. Just 2 Wildcats were shot down.

In the afternoon there were no naval strikes. In summary, in 2 days of battle:

Lexington hit by 17 bombs.
Saratoga hit by 8 bombs and 2 torpedoes.
North Carolina hit by 12 bombs.
South Dakota hit by 25 bombs and 7 torpedoes.
San Diego hit by 3 bombs.
Houston hit by 3 bombs.
Washington hit by 5 bombs.
Astoria hit by 1 bomb.
3 destroyers hit by multiple bombs.

So, I expect Saratoga and South Dakota to sink. Both ship's movement was already restricted before today's hits. Lexington made good speed yesterday, but got hammered today. I can hope that it burns up from so many bomb hits, but it's not a sure thing.

All in all, a successful operation. Now we just have to avoid the enemy subs that must be converging on the area. I'll be sending what I'll call mini-KB, which left Japan and is southbound near Marcus Island, to the South Pacific, to show carriers there. It just won't be KB, which will head to Japan. 3 big carriers have an overdue upgrade. Now is a good time for that. Some light cruisers and destroyers are due for an upgrade in December, and they are heading to Japan.

[apbarog]

13 Nov 42

[Nomad]

This confirms the adage that the Allies can not win the war in 1942, but they can lose it in 1942.

While your opponent has not really lost the game, he is now much further behind the curve that it becomes a possibility.

[apbarog]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

This confirms the adage that the Allies can not win the war in 1942, but they can lose it in 1942.

While your opponent has not really lost the game, he is now much further behind the curve that it becomes a possibility.

He probably lost Saratoga and South Dakota, and a couple of destroyers. He may lose Lexington. So he's lost 3 or 4 of his pre-Essex big carriers. Not good, but not the end of the world. A loss like this is just a delay for the Allies. A loss like this for the Japanese means losing the war early.

I will of course try to arrange another battle like this at a place of my choosing. I don't expect that opportunity for quite awhile though. OPilot could just wait for more than a few Essex class carriers to start rolling. Combined with Hellcats, he'll do just fine, eventually.

I do like that I made some investment in late-war fighters. A goal is to actually see the Sam in action.

[Nomad]

As I look at my post I realize that I should have used the term game instead of war in the first sentence.

In the second sentence I was referring to the possibility of you winning with an auto victory. This becomes
very possible because he is behind the curve now and he has to wait until he gets enough Essex CVs to cover
his losses and to close the gap.

[apbarog]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

As I look at my post I realize that I should have used the term game instead of war in the first sentence.

In the second sentence I was referring to the possibility of you winning with an auto victory. This becomes
very possible because he is behind the curve now and he has to wait until he gets enough Essex CVs to cover
his losses and to close the gap.

Agreed. A better Japanese player than myself could push for auto-victory in 1943 or 1944. Really for 1944. I am just above 2 to 1 right now. I was done expanding though. A more aggressive player could push further now that carrier superiority is assured for awhile. Maybe I should think about it more. I've always played to survive as long as possible as the Japanese, and to end the war as early as possible as the Allies. For me, the victory points were just something to judge how things are going. But I don't see even a 3 to 1 auto-victory in 1944 without lots of important Allied bases being taken.

[apbarog]

14 Nov 42

Bad weather at Midway prevented long range recon. There's a line of enemy subs to the east of Wake Island, running north to south. But I've avoided them, by not going to Wake. KB went northwest towards Japan, my battleships went southwest towards Truk. So far it's been a quiet exit from the area. Japanese subs are setting up to the southeast of Midway, and closer to Pearl Harbor.

[apbarog]

15 Nov 42

Little to report. Japanese forces continue to retire from the Wake area. US subs are still east of Wake, moving further east to avoid Betty ASW. Poor recon of Midway today, so no enemy task forces spotted. Still hoping that 15 bombs is enough to get Lexington to burn up, but who knows.

Unloading a big AAA unit at Buna. Grayling was spotted there, and destroyer Yayoi got some near misses on the sub.

25 or so B-17Es hit Gove, doing moderate airbase damage.

[apbarog]

16 Nov 42

No sign of enemy task forces around Midway Island. Japanese subs are not seeing anything to the southeast of Midway or closer to Pearl Harbor. They are out there, somewhere. Some may be going direct to the West Coast. I'm looking for a burning carrier though. Maybe I can't see it because it has already sunk. And what about South Dakota? No sightings either.

It looks like OPilot has formed a solid line running east from Kunming, in the mountains. It will be tough if not impossible to break through there. The attempt will be made. Troops are gathering at Liuchow for some rest, then they'll move between Kunming and Tuyun. Other troops will attempt another attack at Tuyun, but that will also be rough. A fresh Chinese corps with 350+ combat value is replacing a corps that has been hammered by artillery for months. My big artillery reinforcement of Tuyun with units bought out from Manchuria is on the road south of Tuyun. They will join the daily bombardment. It will be the biggest concentration of Japanese artillery that I've ever had in a single hex.

[pontiouspilot]

What sort of mischief can you create in the Indian Ocean? Is Ceylon worth a poke? You would have 6 months free from USN backdoor intrusions.

[apbarog]

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

What sort of mischief can you create in the Indian Ocean? Is Ceylon worth a poke? You would have 6 months free from USN backdoor intrusions.

It's something to think about. I don't have many divisions available, and nothing prepped. My excess right now is a division at Saipan and another going to Guam. There's a division pinning the Dutch at Bandoeng. That is it. Nothing else in the Central or South Pacific, other than a division split between Port Moresby, Buna and Milne Bay. One division split in Burma, another in reserve at Rangoon. I'm heavily committed to China. If I did Ceylon, I'd want more than 2 divisions, to go in very strong, take the island, and leave a small occupying force. OPilot has prepared for such a thing, as he has expanded bases in India near Ceylon. There's no other reason to do that.

Just as I haven't seen an entire US Marine division yet, I don't know where the British divisions are either.

[apbarog]

17 Nov 42

43 B-17s hit Daly Waters. The bomber's targets have included Daly Waters often, Katherine rarely, Gove increasingly often, Port Moresby, Buna and Milne Bay occasionally. There are P-38s in Australia but they have been seen only over New Guinea, so far. A good recon of Normanton shows 24300 men, 301 guns and 468 vehicles, with a US ground unit icon. There is a small combat TF there, so PT boats, some patrol boats, and some xAPs in port. I'm sending a cruiser force from Singapore to Gove, via Soerabaja for fuel. Will try to strike Normanton if I can approach unseen.

We can call the Wake Operation over. KB is just a couple of days from Japan, and the enemy TFs have all disappeared. My subs aren't picking up anything between Midway and Pearl Harbor.