Dude vs Zeta - Hirohito Style

[Zeta16]

Dude has played a great game he caught me way off guard in China and took advantage of it. In Burma I thought I had good position and my troops would be able to hold out with great bombardments and massive heavy bomber raids. To no such luck did this happen. Now my troops retreated to a lose lose place where they were cut off, which leaves India open when he gets over the jungles trails. Wobbly's and our PBEM have shown never keep any British troops in Burma.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: SteveV

It suggests that this theater should be left on computer control and concentrate on the parts of the game that work.

Except that computer control routines are buggy and cause issues with the player controlled units. And assumes that you feel safe putting any of your forces under the AI's direction.

ORIGINAL: SteveV

Strong opinion, I know, but does anyone REALLY think that In The Real World this could have possibly happened? Sure it is fun to baby kill the Chinese with the Japs, but it is not WW2. This is, to my mind, supposed to be a simulation first and foremost, and a game second. This Chinese/Indian gambit is a game tactic, not a simulation. All IMO of course. Others?

Well, I disagree. I think it has to be a game. But <twirls finger in the air> it ain't a big deal either way.

As for the likelyhood of the Japanese overrunning China.... Well, keep in mind that Zeta has already admitted he wasn't really paying attention to China to start with. That kinda skews the results here, so I wouldn't panic yet. But I do agree that large scale land combat has some problems in WiTP. Just stopping the "retreat towards the enemy" routine would certainly help a lot.

[Delphinium]

ORIGINAL: SteveV

I posted a similar comment on the Wobbly AAR and I want to make it clear that I am not in ANY WAY disparaging the wonderful play by the Japanese player here!

With that caveat clear, this AAR and Wobbly's have highlighted that there remains major flaws in the way the game simulates the Chinese conflict. There is no way any army, much less the Japanese non-mechanized army of this era could supply 550K troops inland to Chunking. No way, no how.

The game is great in the naval/air interaction and in the small invasion conflicts, but it simply fails to model the large scale land campaign in China and--upcoming in this game apparently and already present in Wobbly's fine effort--the Indian subcontinent.

It suggests that this theater should be left on computer control and concentrate on the parts of the game that work.

Strong opinion, I know, but does anyone REALLY think that In The Real World this could have possibly happened? Sure it is fun to baby kill the Chinese with the Japs, but it is not WW2. This is, to my mind, supposed to be a simulation first and foremost, and a game second. This Chinese/Indian gambit is a game tactic, not a simulation. All IMO of course. Others?

SteveV

I agree with these sentiments. My concern is that the Japanese can actually supply that size army in one concentration in China. The Japanese did not have a good record of managing logistic (Singapore camapaign/Imphal). Maybe we will have to vhange the game title to War in China (with a small Naval campaign attached) [;)]
First priority for 1.4 ???

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Delphinium

I agree with these sentiments. My concern is that the Japanese can actually supply that size army in one concentration in China. The Japanese did not have a good record of managing logistic (Singapore camapaign/Imphal). Maybe we will have to vhange the game title to War in China (with a small Naval campaign attached) [;)]
First priority for 1.4 ???

I think they need to make the Chinese situation better in the beginning. It ends up becoming a chain effect where the Chinese are always off balance and on the wrong foot.

[WiTP_Dude]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/03/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 56,43
Finally sink a sub.

Japanese Ships
DD Asagao
DD Namikaze
DD Kamikaze
DD Kikuzuki
DD Sazanami
DD Shinonome
DD Inazuma
DD Yamakaze
DD Tanikaze
DD Kuroshio

Allied Ships
SS Grunion, hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kiska Island , at 92,35

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 57,42

Japanese Ships
DD Numakaze
DD Satsuki
DD Shiratsuyu
DD Asagumo
DD Yamagumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Tokitsukaze
DD Teruzuki

Allied Ships
SS Grampus


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 105415 troops, 1091 guns, 3 vehicles

Defending force 153123 troops, 1457 guns, 1191 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
81 casualties reported
Guns lost 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rangoon
Rangoon doesn't have that many defenders.

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 41251 troops, 408 guns, 2 vehicles

Defending force 24022 troops, 76 guns, 16 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
70 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 682 troops, 6 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1585 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein
These 25 pounders are killers.

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 138195 troops, 1406 guns, 1104 vehicles

Defending force 120122 troops, 1091 guns, 458 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
499 casualties reported
Guns lost 15


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili
Allies fail to quickly seize Gili Gili.

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 777 troops, 11 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 2156 troops, 4 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0)


Japanese ground losses:
53 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Allied ground losses:
156 casualties reported
Guns lost 2






AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/04/43


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 57,44

Japanese Ships
DD Karukaya
DD Fuyo
DD Sanae
DD Yakaze
DD Okikaze
DD Hatsushima
DD Hatsuharu
DD Shigure
DD Maikaze
DD Makigumo
DD Akigumo

Allied Ships
SS Pogy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Saigon , at 31,46
These resource attacks will be over with soon.

Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 18
B-24D Liberator x 6

Allied aircraft losses
LB-30 Liberator: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged

Resources hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
8 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
9 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kiska Island , at 92,35

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 57,44

Japanese Ships
DD Karukaya
DD Fuyo
DD Sanae
DD Yakaze
DD Okikaze
DD Hatsushima
DD Hatsuharu
DD Shigure
DD Maikaze
DD Makigumo
DD Akigumo

Allied Ships
SS Pogy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rahaeng , at 31,35

Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 21

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 5 damaged

Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 18

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Imperial Guards Division, at 29,35

Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 8
Wellington III x 41

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
151 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
10 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5th Mortar Battalion, at 29,35

Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 17

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
58 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
5 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5th Mortar Battalion, at 29,35

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 65

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
214 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
5 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 57,44

Japanese Ships
DD Karukaya
DD Fuyo
DD Sanae
DD Yakaze
DD Okikaze
DD Hatsushima
DD Hatsuharu
DD Shigure
DD Maikaze
DD Makigumo
DD Akigumo

Allied Ships
SS Pogy, hits 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 105272 troops, 1099 guns, 3 vehicles

Defending force 152924 troops, 1451 guns, 1193 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
71 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rangoon

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 42171 troops, 436 guns, 2 vehicles

Defending force 23194 troops, 75 guns, 16 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
143 casualties reported
Guns lost 6


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 526 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1396 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 138021 troops, 1403 guns, 1106 vehicles

Defending force 119747 troops, 1099 guns, 457 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
719 casualties reported
Guns lost 9
Vehicles lost 1

[Captain Cruft]

So you took 5 Divs out of Kwantung? I hesitate to remove one, lol.

BTW I agree - the land combat model is broken in more than one place. Little chance of it getting much of it fixed though I suspect.

[forranger]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

So you took 5 Divs out of Kwantung? I hesitate to remove one, lol.

Divs AND Arty AND engineers AND HQ's AND tanks......

I see 2 problems leading to this debacle for the allied side in China:

1) There should not be a single jap unit in China assigned to Kwantung command. Pay political points for the HQ change or leave these units at the russian front..... What's right for planes can't be wrong for grunts.

2) Germany's ratio of garrison troups and supply units to frontline troups in russia in WWII was what? 9:1? If the jap player can ignore scripted damage to rear bases and swing all troups to the front he should at least pay for it with supplies not coming through. A hungry soldier without ammo won't attack..... I'd say supply lines - be it in China or elsewhere - not being adequatly protected should filter down supplies going through a single base by some 50%. Assume it's for supply convois falling victim to partisans. There were millions of potential guerilla fighters in China...... Leave the second base in a supply line undergarrisoned and your troups should be unable to move forward and start starving!

My 2 yen.....

[moses]

I'm not sure the conclusions people are making match the evidance in this game just played.

1). We have an allied player who basically admits he ignored this theater initially and didn't really know what he was doing.

2). We have a JAPAN player who shifted LARGE amounts of troops which did not participate in the campaign historically and then used them aggresivily.

3). With this force it still took him until 1943 to defeat China

This says to me that the China theater is not as terribly unbalanced as some have said. It suggests to me that if we prevent the rienforcements from Russia (or at least require PP points to transfer) and play the theater seriously from the start as allies, then China is likely to hold.

Now of course I agree that the land combat system is not great for the large land masses. It appears to be designed for the island war where it works fairly well and I think thats just the way its going to stay.

Given that the land combat system is probably not going to be changed in a big way the following brings the theater much more into balance.

1). No Kwatang area rienforcements without tranfering to China theater.
2). Provide a short delay before Japan starts operations for the Chinese to start getting redeployed and dug in. (i.e. Japan can't move or attack except for hong kong). I think somewhere from just two days to maybe the fall of hong kong should be sufficient to stifen chinese risistance.

If a code change is desired, how about this. Triple all garrison requirements in china for the first 10 days. Japan then can't move anything for a bit and probably has to spend some supplies repairing airfields and such at bases where he can't initially meet the garrison requirement.

[WiTP_Dude]

There isn't enough of a garrision requirement. Look at the picture... Chungking only requires 40 assualt points. This amounts to only about a battalion of infantry.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: forranger

Divs AND Arty AND engineers AND HQ's AND tanks......

I see 2 problems leading to this debacle for the allied side in China:

1) There should not be a single jap unit in China assigned to Kwantung command. Pay political points for the HQ change or leave these units at the russian front..... What's right for planes can't be wrong for grunts.

Actually, they could be trying to force players to keep some planes in Manchuria since they don't have many assualt points. You could potentially fly them all out without having to worry about assualt points. It is not the same with land units, as if you move too many of them you're bound to get below the 8000 level.

If the jap player can ignore scripted damage to rear bases and swing all troups to the front he should at least pay for it with supplies not coming through. A hungry soldier without ammo won't attack..... I'd say supply lines - be it in China or elsewhere - not being adequatly protected should filter down supplies going through a single base by some 50%. Assume it's for supply convois falling victim to partisans. There were millions of potential guerilla fighters in China...... Leave the second base in a supply line undergarrisoned and your troups should be unable to move forward and start starving!

All the bases have plenty of garrisions. There really are about 750,000 free Japanese troops at the beginning of 1943 to work with, more if you haven't captured anything.

[moses]

Yes of course there is not enough garrison required and a million other things that make the land combat system not what you would hope for in a land combat simulatin. But this is mainly a naval/air game and I think to an extent thats just the way it is.

My point was with play balance. It seems that you had significantly more forces in China then were there historically and you had an opponent who admits to having ignored the theater at start and to have not played that theater well. Given that it still took until 1943 to achieve a decisive result doesn't that imply that the play balance is not all that out of whack.

Don't even want to argue about the ground combat system. Lots of problems. No question. But it seems that perhaps just a minor change or two might bring play balance into line.

[WiTP_Dude]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/05/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Saigon , at 31,46


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 14
B-24D Liberator x 8


Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged

Resources hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
10 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
4 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kiska Island , at 92,35


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 3


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 72,41

Japanese Ships
DD Tachikaze
DD Minegumo
DD Makinami

Allied Ships
SS Wahoo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 49,109
Allied transport moving unescorted.

Japanese Ships
SS I-154

Allied Ships
AK Surigao, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st Reserve Tank Regiment, at 29,33


Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 7


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
27 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 55th Division, at 29,34


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 52


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
239 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,56


Allied aircraft
Brewster 339D x 4
B-25C Mitchell x 6


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
TK Chiyoda Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 1000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 1000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rangoon
Attack on Rangoon begins, hopefully this will be quick.

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 52418 troops, 456 guns, 150 vehicles

Defending force 22286 troops, 63 guns, 16 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 9)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 8


Japanese ground losses:
775 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

Allied ground losses:
400 casualties reported
Guns lost 13
Vehicles lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 125335 troops, 1285 guns, 1105 vehicles

Defending force 118930 troops, 1096 guns, 457 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
754 casualties reported
Guns lost 6
Vehicles lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili
This seems like some kind of Allied probe, best not to overeact to this sort of thing.

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 616 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1988 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0)


Japanese ground losses:
55 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Guns lost 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Andaman Island
Why not?

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 83 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Andaman Island base !!!






AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/06/43


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Saigon , at 31,46


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 14


Allied aircraft losses
LB-30 Liberator: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged

Resources hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
8 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kiska Island , at 92,35

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rahaeng , at 31,35


Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 18


Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
9 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 17

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 33rd Division, at 29,34


Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 12
B-17E Fortress x 70


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
97 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
11 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5th Division, at 29,35


Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 10
Wellington III x 58
P-40E Warhawk x 17


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
238 casualties reported
Guns lost 9
Vehicles lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
5 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
5 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 5th Division, at 29,35


Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 59


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
211 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
7 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
7 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rangoon
Allies seem to fleeing Burma on ships.

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 51328 troops, 418 guns, 150 vehicles

Defending force 17351 troops, 31 guns, 16 vehicles

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 7

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 7)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 7


Japanese ground losses:
820 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Allied ground losses:
442 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 125883 troops, 1305 guns, 1114 vehicles

Defending force 118052 troops, 1073 guns, 457 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
702 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

[SteveV]

OK, so we have an apparent problem with the model for large-scale land operations in China and, eventually, the Indian subcontinent. Ideas to kick around:

1) No Japanese attacks or movement at start of Scen 15 except for HKong for "X" days. That is one that can be house-ruled without needing any patch. Likewise, the Chinese cannot advance into any Japanese controlled areas either during this period.

2) No transfer of Kwantung army units. Either none at all, or none until, say, 1944 when they were shifted to defend close-in islands. That can be house-ruled too.

3) Logistics/supply. We are going to have difficulty with this one since it would generally require code changes. However, one fix would be to set some limits on how many Japanese units can be allowed in a given hex depending on the supply link (rail v. road v. trail) and the length of that supply line. We would have to some noodling on this.

4) On a similar note, and to make this a balanced discussion for both sides, there should also be a limit to the number of LCU's in many of the islands and atolls and corresponding hexes. The US should not be able to pile 8 Divs into an atoll the size of my back yard.

Thoughts?

SteveV

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: SteveV


1) No Japanese attacks or movement at start of Scen 15 except for HKong for "X" days. That is one that can be house-ruled without needing any patch. Likewise, the Chinese cannot advance into any Japanese controlled areas either during this period.

I haven't checked but someone wrote that the deployment has been updated for 1.3. If the Chinese are already in a better position at the start, this house rule will become unneeded.

2) No transfer of Kwantung army units. Either none at all, or none until, say, 1944 when they were shifted to defend close-in islands. That can be house-ruled too.

I'm not sure why the Kwantung OOB grows so much over the years if the idea is to keep everything there. Eventually a surprise attack on Siberia looks like a good idea if you have 15000 assualt points locked up in Manchuria with nothing to do.

Logistics/supply. We are going to have difficulty with this one since it would generally require code changes. However, one fix would be to set some limits on how many Japanese units can be allowed in a given hex depending on the supply link (rail v. road v. trail) and the length of that supply line. We would have to some noodling on this.

Only so much supply should be able to pass through a given point in a day. Railroads should be able to handle the most, with the downslope after that. This will cause large invading armies to have to pause a lot to let the supply stockpile rebuild.

4) On a similar note, and to make this a balanced discussion for both sides, there should also be a limit to the number of LCU's in many of the islands and atolls and corresponding hexes. The US should not be able to pile 8 Divs into an atoll the size of my back yard.

The designers should have added this already. Some kind of penalty for overstacking will be good enough.

[moses]

I havn't noticed any change in chinese deployments in 1.3.

I don't believe a great delay is needed to make the Chinese competitive. In my game vs Tophat he has waited till hong Kong fell (9 or 10 days) before begining active operations. Redeployment is well underway and I have been digging in at key locations. Units have been also recovering morale, disruption and fatigue. There will be no easy conquests now. I really believe that it will be difficult for him to make progress now but we shall see.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: SteveV

4) On a similar note, and to make this a balanced discussion for both sides, there should also be a limit to the number of LCU's in many of the islands and atolls and corresponding hexes. The US should not be able to pile 8 Divs into an atoll the size of my back yard.

The islands and atolls are significantly larger than that. Most of them are several miles long and wide.

[SteveV]

DTravel, that is called "hyperbole", or else I have a big backyard. [:)]

How many US Divs could fit on an atoll? Kinda like the number of angels on a pinhead question.

The answer is not infinite, which is the answer this game allows.

SteveV

[WiTP_Dude]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/09/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Saigon , at 31,46


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 5
B-24D Liberator x 12


Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged

Resources hits 6

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
5 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kiska Island , at 92,35


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 3


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kunming , at 39,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 26
Ki-51 Sonia x 90
Ki-21 Sally x 60
Ki-48 Lily x 36
Ki-46-III Dinah x 6

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-51 Sonia: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-153c: 30 destroyed, 24 damaged


Allied ground losses:
29 casualties reported

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 100

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
18 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
24 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
18 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
6 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
7 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
6 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
6 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 55th Division, at 29,34


Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 8
B-17E Fortress x 59


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
208 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Imperial Guards Division, at 29,35


Allied aircraft
Hurricane II x 7
Wellington III x 54


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
164 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
5 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,33

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48 Lily x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Empire Buckler

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Tavoy at 28,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 2
Ki-27 Nate x 3
Ki-48 Lily x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48 Lily: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Royal Sovereign

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,35
The Fulmar is Fubar.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 32
A6M3 Zero x 20
D3A Val x 6
B5N Kate x 5
Ki-27 Nate x 18
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 21
Ki-21 Sally x 6
Ki-48 Lily x 14

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 38

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed
D3A Val: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
B5N Kate: 4 damaged
Ki-27 Nate: 7 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 7 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 7 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 5 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar: 79 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Formidable, Bomb hits 1
CVL Hermes
CV Illustrious, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
1 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 8000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Tavoy, at 28,37
Help.

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 6 destroyed, 17 damaged
Ki-27 Nate: 5 destroyed, 4 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 9 destroyed, 5 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 5 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 7 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied Ships
CA Exeter
CA Cornwall
CA Houston
BB Resolution
BB Ramilles
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Valiant
BB Warspite

Japanese ground losses:
456 casualties reported

Airbase hits 16
Airbase supply hits 8
Runway hits 50


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rangoon
The fall of Rangoon could occur any day now.

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 52130 troops, 373 guns, 291 vehicles

Defending force 14660 troops, 35 guns, 16 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 6)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 5


Japanese ground losses:
368 casualties reported
Guns lost 11

Allied ground losses:
752 casualties reported
Guns lost 9
Vehicles lost 2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein
Will have to wait for reinforcements to make progress here.

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 154898 troops, 1536 guns, 463 vehicles

Defending force 99438 troops, 993 guns, 377 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 9)


Japanese ground losses:
4237 casualties reported
Guns lost 148
Vehicles lost 8

Allied ground losses:
1023 casualties reported
Guns lost 48


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 83704 troops, 871 guns, 364 vehicles

Defending force 148553 troops, 1315 guns, 454 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
31 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili
A large Allied convoy is approaching Gili Gili.

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 515 troops, 5 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 3557 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles






AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/10/43


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Saigon , at 31,46


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 8
B-24D Liberator x 5


Allied aircraft losses
LB-30 Liberator: 1 damaged

Resources hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
4 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
4 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 3000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kiska Island , at 92,35

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
D3A Val: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 damaged

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Tavoy, at 28,37
Airfields at Tavoy all aglow.

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 10 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-27 Nate: 6 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 7 destroyed, 10 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 9 destroyed, 11 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed
D3A Val: 1 destroyed
Ki-21 Sally: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CA Exeter
CA Cornwall
CA Houston
BB Resolution
BB Ramilles
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Valiant
BB Warspite

Japanese ground losses:
732 casualties reported

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 72

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Gili Gili, 56,94, firing at TF 1070
TF 1070 troops unloading over beach at Gili Gili, 56,94


4 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kunming , at 39,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 27
Ki-51 Sonia x 85
Ki-21 Sally x 61
Ki-48 Lily x 35
Ki-46-III Dinah x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
63 casualties reported

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 81

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
23 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
31 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
22 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 6000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rahaeng , at 31,35


Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 19


Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 1 damaged

Runway hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 1st Reserve Tank Regiment, at 29,34


Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 10
B-17E Fortress x 43


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
168 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 15

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Tavoy, at 28,37

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 3 damaged
Ki-27 Nate: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 4 destroyed
D3A Val: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CA Exeter
CA Cornwall
CA Houston
BB Resolution
BB Ramilles
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Valiant
BB Warspite

Japanese ground losses:
482 casualties reported

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 48
Port supply hits 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Rangoon

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 51478 troops, 361 guns, 272 vehicles

Defending force 13658 troops, 16 guns, 13 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 4


Japanese ground losses:
265 casualties reported
Guns lost 13

Allied ground losses:
442 casualties reported
Guns lost 5


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 2062 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1568 troops, 5 guns, 0 vehicles



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4628 troops, 165 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 96593 troops, 917 guns, 378 vehicles



Allied ground losses:
98 casualties reported
Guns lost 3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 83663 troops, 864 guns, 366 vehicles

Defending force 149188 troops, 1329 guns, 454 vehicles


Japanese ground losses:
115 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Gili Gili

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 548 troops, 5 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 3524 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles

[sven6345789]

actually, i see no need for rule changes. so The japanese player has taken china. so what. It probably won't stop the american onslought. Taking India will probably take another year. we will be in 1944 by then. Chances are that the strategic bombing campaign starts when the japanese gets anything like close to Karachi.

After all, overland movement is painfully slow, and the allied airforce in india is much stronger than the chinese. This game is not over yet, although it will probably only be won by invading japan itself. might even last into 1946.

[rhondabrwn]

OK, I don't claim to be an expert, but...

If the Japanese shouldn't be able to sustain a 500,000 man force to attack Chunking, then how do the Chinese sustain and supply a 300,000 man force in an extended defense of a virtually besieged city?

It seems like the game mechanics (and deficiencies) kinda cancel out here and make for a result that isn't as ahistorical as some have asserted.

I do agree that flow of supply through land hexes should be limited by the condition of roads, trails, and railways, thus keeping the size of armies reduced to an historically accurate size for all players.

Personally, I hate adding arbitrary rules like not being able to pull units off the Russian front for duty in China. Let it happen and increase the possibility of a Russian declaration of war as a penalty for taking the risk. After all, war is about risks, and an historical simulation should reward innovation, surprise, and risk-taking and not attempt to shut it down in favor of forcing historical play. That's why this AAR has been so absolutely fascinating!