The return of tristanjohn

[Nikademus]

I'm at work.....thats how....i'm a very er....productive worker.

besides....i'm getting close to Pizza.....thats all that matters......you can't eat supply points. [:D]

[moses]

But in WITP we have 100% convertability of supply points. You want bombs you got bombs. Want Pizza you got Pizza!!!![:D]


Hmmmmmmm Pizza..........I want to be in the game.

[tsimmonds]

Problem that allows game to move too fast is not too much supply, it is too-easy transport. Too many AP/AK and too efficient loading and unloading. But if it were super difficult to scrape together the ships needed to do something and took days and weeks to get them ready, how many of us would still be interested in the game? I played a mod with Ron S. that halved AP/AK capacity and doubled LCUs load costs, and it was just about unbearable. And I am fairly tolerant of slogging through muck, I think probably not everyone is. What is the answer? I'm not sure there is one, beyond everyone making his own mod to suit himself and finding someone to play it with....

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Problem that allows game to move too fast is not too much supply, it is too-easy transport. Too many AP/AK and too efficient loading and unloading. But if it were super difficult to scrape together the ships needed to do something and took days and weeks to get them ready, how many of us would still be interested in the game? I played a mod with Ron S. that halved AP/AK capacity and doubled LCUs load costs, and it was just about unbearable. And I am fairly tolerant of slogging through muck, I think probably not everyone is. What is the answer? I'm not sure there is one, beyond everyone making his own mod to suit himself and finding someone to play it with....

Depends on what people want I guess. Problem with releasing a game with so many obvious inaccuracies is that it conditions people into thinking stuff like free add water and stir supply, a merchant marine that has no role aside from being amphibious sealift, the overall fast pace of the game...the list is almost endless, is accurate and once a change is made to correct the mess it FEELS wrong to them. Sad but true.

[Nikademus]

supply points cannot be converted into Pepperoni. game is broken!

[:D]

[tsimmonds]

Thing is, Ron, I don't really think it felt wrong so much as it felt too much like work! [;)]

[moses]

Reply to Irrelevant:

Thats sort of how I feel. There are a number of things that would make the game more "accurate" but also more difficult and perhaps less fun. Trade offs have to made somewhere. We will all disagree about what trade-offs are acceptable. But the tenor of discussion would be much more bearable if everyone would just realise the reality that trade-offs are unavoidable.

I would like to have some feeling that sending a large invasion force to say Numea or India is something very difficult to support and maintain. But how really to do this without making the game very very boring and tedious.

In reality there were staffs to manage all those ships. In the game its just me with my notepad. How realistic is that?

Hey!! I demand a naval staff section to come with the game. If Matrix doesn't provide me with a staff then that proves that they never intended for this game to be historical in any way. They took my money and only gave me this piece of &#%^$.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

supply points cannot be converted into Pepperoni. game is broken!

[:D]

Don't panic. Just go to a level 4 base with 20,000+ supply points. Make sure you have a leader with high admin values. Bring napkins.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

supply points cannot be converted into Pepperoni. game is broken!

[:D]

Actually this is incorrect. An ammunition factory exists in Palembang which manufactures all calibres of explosive pepperoni which has been doing sterling damage to the Japanese beseiging Singapore.[8|]

[Nikademus]

not in my game.....Pepperoni mines left by my Dutch-italian ENG's have left Palembang a smoking, spicy smelling ruin for the "victor"....who being from England, does not appreciate the perfection that is a pepperoni Pizza.

he does now.

[Ron Saueracker]

I'm going to try firing baps through the gun barrels...lots of fixin's for those with all the raghead (no offense intended but after 4 months of constant jungle combat the turbans indeed are rags now...and no doubt very stinky ones!) brigades I've got.

[tsimmonds]

I would like to have some feeling that sending a large invasion force to say Numea or India is something very difficult to support and maintain. But how really to do this without making the game very very boring and tedious.

In reality there were staffs to manage all those ships. In the game its just me with my notepad. How realistic is that?

Organizing invasion forces and loading LCUs onto transports is the most tedious task the game has to offer. Actually what keeps IJ from running wild in the conquest phase is not any shortage of troops, transport, or supplies; rather it is the threat of carpal tunnel syndrome posed by the myriad of mouse clicks all those invasions require. Personally, I am fed up with the conquest phase (especially with doing it over and over and over...), and am getting ready to begin a new PBEM of the big scenario starting on May 1. There is no question that we players can out-conquer historical IJ in six directions at once; I'm ready for the completely different challenge of seeing whether I can do a better job than they did of defending their flawed empire....

[treespider]

I've just read through the last few pages of this discussion...and it tends to reinforce my belief that for wargame purposes perhaps the boardgame Pacific War by Victory games had a decent system for the logistics model. Instead of micromanaging all of the merchant men and submarines and escorts, throw them in a pool and calculate your supplies from there. However in a game that goes to the level of tracking individual pilots and guns a system like that will not work.

IMO if the interface were better perhaps organizing a convoy system would not be as tedious.

As far as load times...it could make things interesting to add a weighted random number multiplier to the load and or unload rate perhaps something like .7 ,.8,.9,.9, 1, 1, 1.1 1.1 etc. Wherein on Day 1 100 points are loaded Day 2 70 points, Day 3 90 points etc...

Just some thoughts from left field....back to work.

[bradfordkay]

We mustn't forget the "dockworkers are freaked out by enemy bombers and run away" factor, though this perhaps should have a greater effect on allied loading times than on Japanese. It's hard to run past a line of troops armed with bayonets...

[moses]

Changing the speed at which ships unload/load/refuel, etc would be a interesting way to slow logistics ops. Especisally if it could be an adjustable option. i.e. at start of game have an option load speed Normal, Slow, or Very Slow. That way those who are not interested are not affected.

But it might slow things up a bit without requiring extra work from the player.[:)]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: moses

Changing the speed at which ships unload/load/refuel, etc would be a interesting way to slow logistics ops. Especisally if it could be an adjustable option. i.e. at start of game have an option load speed Normal, Slow, or Very Slow. That way those who are not interested are not affected.

But it might slow things up a bit without requiring extra work from the player.[:)]

What, operational point maximums for ports, airfields, etc. What a novel idea![8|][;)] Only been advocated since the cows came home.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: moses

Changing the speed at which ships unload/load/refuel, etc would be a interesting way to slow logistics ops. Especisally if it could be an adjustable option. i.e. at start of game have an option load speed Normal, Slow, or Very Slow. That way those who are not interested are not affected.

But it might slow things up a bit without requiring extra work from the player.[:)]

I like my random modifier suggestion to simulate variablity. It would force players to build lead time into there Ops waiting for various ships to be loaded and forming up TF's.

[moses]

What, operational point maximums for ports, airfields, etc. What a novel idea! Only been advocated since the cows came home.

I wasn't thinking operations points but just load/unload speed at ports. Since these load rates are are in a single table this might be something that could be changed easily. Just change the data in the table vs. ops points which would seem to me a more dificult thing to program.

But no matter. It is a very slight variation from things you have argued for for some time. But who knows what is easy and whats hard.

Here's another NEW idea that is very similar to one of yours.

For BB's and carriers to replenish There must be 50,000 sp at the base minus 10,000 for each port level over 6. Supply costs to do so are doubled at any port less then 6. BB's and CV's which resupply at bases smaller then 6 take 1 pt system damage.

Justification: If you want to resupply at small bases you need special preperation (must send 50,000 sp); You are less effecient (extra supply cost) ; and your ships are operating out of substandard bases (1pt sys dam). Plus this seems to me something that might be easy to program. As always based on my vintage 1980's programming skills.[:(]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: moses

What, operational point maximums for ports, airfields, etc. What a novel idea! Only been advocated since the cows came home.

I wasn't thinking operations points but just load/unload speed at ports. Since these load rates are are in a single table this might be something that could be changed easily. Just change the data in the table vs. ops points which would seem to me a more dificult thing to program.

But no matter. It is a very slight variation from things you have argued for for some time. But who knows what is easy and whats hard.

Here's another NEW idea that is very similar to one of yours.

For BB's and carriers to replenish There must be 50,000 sp at the base minus 10,000 for each port level over 6. Supply costs to do so are doubled at any port less then 6. BB's and CV's which resupply at bases smaller then 6 take 1 pt system damage.

Justification: If you want to resupply at small bases you need special preperation (must send 50,000 sp); You are less effecient (extra supply cost) ; and your ships are operating out of substandard bases (1pt sys dam). Plus this seems to me something that might be easy to program. As always based on my vintage 1980's programming skills.[:(]

Restricting replenishment to bases with Naval Base units makes sense to me...then apply the size of base to how large a ship can be supported (aside from specialty service ships of course).

[moses]

Makes sence but easier to exploit I think. I can send a naval base unit to a level 1 port and in one day I'm operational. I need no extra supply and pay no cost for operating my BB's out of silly bases. So basically in game terms what has been accomplished. The heavy ships exert no added logistics burdon on players other then making him send a naval base unit. Can these be split?????

As I proposed at least some advanced planning is required and a cost is exacted for operating out of silly bases. You can do it but running 4 or 5 Bombardment operations using Luganville as your base will at least wear out your ships. Plus I think there is already code for conditions for different things being replenished so perhaps this would be easier then making checks for the presence of specific units.