Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[marcuswatney]

Hankow: Look at your own (in)famous Post 47 on this thread.  It appears as Hankow, with no Wuhan in sight.  My point is that Chaing Kai-Shek chose to set up his government in Hankow, not Wuhan, so players reading history books while playing the game will be looking for a Hankow.  At the time, Hankow is the name that was dominant.  Also on my maps (and Post 47) the river is spelt Yangtze.
 
Resources:  If the resources move to factories only via rail, road and convoy, then presumably Chungking and Chengtu only ever use the resources in their own hexes (so cannot be starved out) instead of receiving resources from the Burma Road?  So you are saying that the Burma Road daren't be shown going from Kweiyang to Chungking because 1) the Japanese would use it as a supply line for an advance against Chungking and 2) the Chungking/Chengtu factories being fully utilised already, it wouldn't benefit the KMT at all anyway ever.  Wow!  Quite a fudge factor!
 
Even taking into account China's very low Production Multiple, it is weird that the design suggests that tiny places like Kunming had half the industrial capacity of a city like Chungking.  The history books tell us that, in Western terms, the only truly industrialised city in China was Shanghai, so that great metropolis ought to have ten or more factories!
 
Burma Road:  So the road changing colour refers only to the political closure pre-1942, not physical intervention?  I am sure Steve mentioned looking to see where exactly it was cut, or where it could be cut subsequently.
 
Changsha: What an amazing map!  And it shows deposits of copper, iron, mercury, antimony and lead!  I suppose the point is this.  For me, the Burma Road was the route by which avgas was laboriously transported from the airfield at Kunming to Chengtu to fuel the B-29s from early 1944 onwards.  But for military materiel such as jeeps, rifles, small artillery, and ammunition it wouldn't make sense to take them to Chungking first and then back to Changsha.
 
But here's a new problem, assuming I am not misunderstanding something fundamental.  There is one factory in Changsha and two resources to the southwest.  So why does Changsha need a road to it?  Indeed, while the Burma Road is closed, the Changsha road is most likely to be used east-to-west to take a resource to Kweiyang!
 
Then again, supposing Britain is extremely generous and sends vast amounts of resources down the Burma Road.  China doesn't seem to have any spare factories within reach to utilise them.  In the south, I see two resources and three factories, so why would Britain ever send more than one resource?  And in the centre and north, every factory has its resource in its hex with it, apart from Lanchow which is within two hexes of a resource.
 
The Burma Road shipped avgas and war materiel, not resources ... so really what the Chinese player should be receiving is Build Points.

[marcuswatney]

I see from Post 532 that Build Points can be given to China via the Burma Road (given the differences in Production Multiples, surely the preferred delivery).  But to where do BPs have to be shipped to be used?

[marcuswatney]

Steve, are the beta-testers testing the strategies or the programming?  How long have all the various China strategies been under the microscope?
 
Also, I hope you are going to support Vista from the outset.  There are many Matrix products I would have bought but will not (e.g. Conquest of the Aegean) because the company is slow to upgrade.

[wosung]

For the Yennan/Yenan question both works for WW2. So I don't mind a change at all.

For the Yellow River question I checked a few references. And it's right: The destruction of the dykes at Huayuankou changed the course it had since 1852 for the next 9 years: Southwards through Northern Kiangsu. So, it seems, that in WW2 Yellow River again followed its older pre-1852 course

According to the WW2 maps I found, the course of the Yellow River would be from Kaifeng SE to the Northern tip of Lake Hungtse to unite with River Huai. Then Huangho/Huai moved south of Tsingkow into the Yellow Sea (like Huai is already doing on our map)

To stay in the picture: Nobody's an island. I didn't find that one. Thanks marcuswatney!!!


References:

Jonathan Spence, The search for modern China, New York 1999, pp. 530, 536 (German ed.)

Schlag nach über Ostasien. Tournisterschrift des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht Heft 57, Berlin 1942. (Consult about East-Asia. Travel Kit of German High Command).

Regards

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Steve, are the beta-testers testing the strategies or the programming?  How long have all the various China strategies been under the microscope?

Also, I hope you are going to support Vista from the outset.  There are many Matrix products I would have bought but will not (e.g. Conquest of the Aegean) because the company is slow to upgrade.

I really do not want to go into details on beta testing other than what I post monthly - which isn't much on that topic.
================
As for Vista, the game seems to run ok under XP Emulation. But not under 'native' Vista. I have talked about this some in my monthly reports; re: Theme Engine upgrade to support Vista.

One point I would like to reiterate is that:
(a) if Vista supported XP programs without the software developers having to rewrite their programs to make it compatible, then
(b) Microsoft would never have created an XP emulation capability.

Clearly Vista does not always run XP programs. I.e., Vista does not have backwards compatibility to XP. Your complaints here should be directed at Microsoft, not the game developers.[:-] Or else get use to running older programs under XP emulation(?)[;)]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung
For the Yellow River question I checked a few references. And it's right: The destruction of the dykes at Huayuankou changed the course it had since 1852 for the next 9 years: Southwards through Northern Kiangsu. So, it seems, that in WW2 Yellow River again followed its older pre-1852 course

According to the WW2 maps I found, the course of the Yellow River would be from Kaifeng SE to the Northern tip of Lake Hungtse to unite with River Huai. Then Huangho/Huai moved south of Tsingkow into the Yellow Sea (like Huai is already doing on our map)

If we were to change the course of the Yellow River, what would you say of that draft (picture attached -- ignore the Yellow River's north course, it is not deleted on this draft picture). It is not as you describe Wosung, it is based on the map I published in post #47, and on the 1944 Look at the World atlas who show the Yellow River on a similar course than the map of post #47.

But, are we sure we want to do that ?
I'm asking because 2/3 or 3/4 of the maps I see for China during the war show the Yellow River on its north course. Only a small part show it on its South course.
Articles on Wikipedia seems to confirm this is true though :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yellow_River_flood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_riv ... _of_course

Also, are we sure that the Yellow River did flow ONLY on its south course, and that there were no more flowing on the north one ? This would explain why there are som much WWII China maps that show the northern flow of the Yellow River.

If we are sure that this southern flow is the historical reality, then we are facing a major error on our map, and we can take the energy to change it. It is not a game breaker, nor does it change the game dynamics. It is just more historical accurate, and shows that we did our homework well as said Marcus.
For the technical side, I can generate the changes in the map data files, and I can also generate the river hexes and the riverless coastal hexes for the old Yellow River's mouth, to give them to Steve who would put them in his big river file and his big coastal file. This would relieve Steve of a large part of the work.

[Froonp]

Hankow: Look at your own (in)famous Post 47 on this thread. It appears as Hankow, with no Wuhan in sight. My point is that Chaing Kai-Shek chose to set up his government in Hankow, not Wuhan, so players reading history books while playing the game will be looking for a Hankow. At the time, Hankow is the name that was dominant. Also on my maps (and Post 47) the river is spelt Yangtze.

I'm sorry, but there also are numerous maps with Wuhan on them. There is also a famous battle of Wuhan during the Sino-Japanese war (June-November 1938 -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_wuhan), so I stand by this. Wuhan is composed of 3 cities, Hankow being one of the three. I can have the city names "Wuhan (Hankow)" but not simply "Hankow".

[Froonp]

Here is another possibility of southward flowing (keep on ignoring the northern flowing, I did not delete it).

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I have found another 1945 map that supports this flowing of the Yellow River.

[marcuswatney]

If we believe the Post 47 map, then Post 546 is the better depiction, because it maintains the correct ratio Suchow-river-Nanking, and the correct distance away from the east-west rail-line as claimed by Post 47.
 
The trouble is, while my 1942 map doesn't show the change in course, it does mark the old route (now flowing again) criss-crossing the Kaifeng-Suchow rail-line so that it is much closer to the route shown in Post 548.
 
The other maps I saw years ago showed the old northern course as a double-dotted line, implying it had dried up completely.  Also, I was under the impression that the bulk of the deaths came not from drowning but from the famine that followed.
 
In case you think me a total anorak, the reason I know so much about this period is that my 1982 Pacific Third Reich game, never published, had a 1931-41 scenario in China where the KMT player was given a map overlay and could actually blow the dykes if he wanted to.  It is not often in games you get the chance to move a river!

[marcuswatney]

Having looked at Post 549 since my last post, I think that is a decisive vote in favour of the more southerly route: the map actually distinguishes between the two routes, and dates them, so it was clearly drawn up very carefully.  So I vote for Post 546.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I have found another 1945 map that supports this flowing of the Yellow River.

Here is another map (1944 Look at the world Atlas) that support the first drawing.

[Froonp]

My 1944 Collier Atlas also support the first drawing. I have not scanned this map.

[wosung]

I’m fully aware that redoing the Yellow River on the MWIF map takes time and might be an issue for the board gamers.
So I checked again a few references on that with the following questions in mind:
Did it change its course completely after the destruction of the dykes at Huayuankou on June 8th, 1938? Was there only one new river course (the pre-1852 course)? Did the river bed it had from 1852 to 1938 after June 8th 1938 dried out completely?
So what do the references say?

1. “As the water in the Yellow River rose, Hua-yuan-kou East of Cheng-chow was floodeds and the main outflow followed the Chia-lu River into the Huai River. [...] Since then, the two opposing forces faced each other across the flooded area fore six years.”
Hsu Long-hsue and Chang Ming-kai (Eds) History of the Sino Japanese War (1937-1945) Taipei 1971, p 235. (partly a piece of propaganda)
On Map 39 of Hsu and Chang (for 1944) we find both the the Northern and the Southern course. The latter is labelled (“Yellow River flooded area”). Kaifeng is in between these two River arms.

2.[/b] A Chinese map about the area in 1944 shows the same picture: both the the Northern and the Southern course. The latter is depicted markedly wider than the former. Kaifeng 开封is in between these two River arms. 中国大白科。军事Zhongguo dabaike quanshu: Junshi, Shanghai 1989 (Encyclopedia of China: Military), p. 517.

3. “...besides the Yellow River left its bed: It did not flow into the Yellow Sea North of the Shantung peninsula as it used to do since the 1850s but changed its course back again to the South crossing Northern Kiangsu before it reached the sea.”
Jonathan Spence, In Search for Modern China, New York 1999, p 536. (Spence is one of the most reputated academic China specialists, German ed., retransl. by me) According to Spences map (p 530) the WW2 course of Yellow river was North of Kaifeng to the Northern Tip of Lake Hungtse and then to the Yellow Sea South of Tsingkow.(I don’t want to scan this map because of copyright issues)

[/b]4. A map of German High Command (1942) might support Spences map: There are two courses on it:

to North Shantung.

from North of Kaifeng to the Northern Tip of Lake Hungtse and then to the Yellow Sea South of Tsingkow, labelled “Mouth of the Yellow River until 1852”
Schlag nach über Ostasien. Tournisterschrift des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht Heft 57, Berlin 1942. (Consult about East-Asia. Travel Kit of German High Command).



[/b]5. Finally another map in a quite recent Chinese publication shows just the northern course for 1944. The text discusses, if it was right to blow up the dykes but not the Yellow river course (p.536).
鄭浪平, 中國之怒吼 中華民族抗日戰爭史 Zheng Langping, Zhongguo zhi nuhou, Zhonghua minzu kang Ri zhanzheng shi (China’s rage, History of the Chinese Nations’ Anti-Japanese War), Taibei 2005, p. 809.


Bottom line:[/b] There seems to be no easy answer. The texts are not explicit for our question. The maps also differ. Almost certainly they are not exact due to the nature of this short-time man made geographical issue. They depicted both river courses relying on history and on actual news, but not on scientific exact measurement in a combate zone. Besides the geographical issues, even the military impact of the flood remains unclear and is (politically) contested. Plus: How wide and deep was the river? Was it easy to cross?
Two possibilites for us:


[/b]Depict only the southern course.


Depict both co-existent river courses.[/b]

I’ll vote for b.

Regards

[wosung]

On Map 39 of Hsu and Chang (for 1944) we find both the the Northern and the Southern course. The latter is labelled (“Yellow River flooded area”). Kaifeng is in between these two River arms.

[wosung]

Grrr. Uploading pictures does not work for me

[wosung]

2.[/b] A Chinese map about the area in 1944 shows the same picture: both the the Northern and the Southern course[/b]. The latter is depicted markedly wider than the former. Kaifeng 开封is in between these two River arms. 中国大白科。军事Zhongguo dabaike quanshu: Junshi, Shanghai 1989 (Encyclopedia of China: Military), p. 517.

[marcuswatney]

Hey, people, this is a computer game. Why not let the KMT player decide at the very start of the game if he did or did not blow the dykes in 1938? Switch on either the north route or the south route. Also...

ORIGINAL: wosung

"As the water in the Yellow River rose, Hua-yuan-kou. East of Cheng-chow was flooded

I suggest that if blown, the Chengchow hex should be designated swamp.


There is also something else I would like to draw to your attention: in the Post 47/546 map there is a break in the rail-line south of Chengchow. If, as seems likely, the rail-line was washed away by the flood, that would explain why the Japanese did not make any effort (as shown by that map) to link Hankow/Wuhan to the rail-net. If we think of the Chengchow region as flooded and all transport south of there disrupted, the peculiar bulge in the central sector of the Japanese occupation suddenly makes perfect sense.

[marcuswatney]

New topic: Has there been any discussion of the navigability of the Yangtze?  We know from the Yangtse Incident that warships routinely went upstream at least as far as Nanking, and I suspect could have gone to Hankow.  Apart from the fact that the Yangtze was (and is) a major obstacle to any army, comparable to the Amazon, the reason I ask is ...
 
I have been cataloguing what the resource hexes were actually producing, and there are two stark anomalies in China.  First, nothing of any significance came from 1 SW of Suchow (a tiny coalfield).  Secondly, China is missing the massive Tayeh iron mines which should be 1 SE, or better at the top-right of 2 SE, of Wuhan.  These mines were the source of the bulk of the iron ore exported from Classical China during the occupation.
 
If the Yangtze were shown as navigable as far as Lake Poyang, then we could shift the incorrect Suchow resource to 2 SE Wuhan and that iron could be taken straight out to sea, as was done historically.  This also has the great benefit of giving the KMT a target worth launching an offensive to capture, and giving some meaning to the battles around Changsha. 

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Hey, people, this is a computer game. Why not let the KMT player decide at the very start of the game if he did or did not blow the dykes in 1938? Switch on either the north route or the south route. Also...

ORIGINAL: wosung

"As the water in the Yellow River rose, Hua-yuan-kou. East of Cheng-chow was flooded

I suggest that if blown, the Chengchow hex should be designated swamp.


There is also something else I would like to draw to your attention: in the Post 47/546 map there is a break in the rail-line south of Chengchow. If, as seems likely, the rail-line was washed away by the flood, that would explain why the Japanese did not make any effort (as shown by that map) to link Hankow/Wuhan to the rail-net. If we think of the Chengchow region as flooded and all transport south of there disrupted, the peculiar bulge in the central sector of the Japanese occupation suddenly makes perfect sense.

For the players' choice of having blown up the dykes, I would imagine that it won't be realized: Too unwiffy and complicated to program.

I could live with Yellow River swamp hexes in Chengchow and /or Kaifeng and even the hex(es) to the SE. According to another map in Hsu (No 28) the swamp should be in the Kaifeng hex (Swamp symbol some 30 to 80 km SE of Kaifeng). But because it's one of the "complete China maps" it won't help to upload it because of its scale.

For the Chengchow-Wuhan Railway: According to the map in post No. 555 in 1944 the Yellow River flooded area was some 10 to 50 km East to this railway. In the Battle of Central Honan (4.-6.1944) the IJA attacked South along the railway. But I'm unsure about the state of the railway itself. But this is a problem for all Chinese railways.

I like the way you try to combine geography and frontlines. But for the bulge between Kaifeng and Wuhan, the lack of political and economic war aims in Honan alone would explain the long stability of the frontline there. The only meaning the area had was as connection between North and Central China. Therefore its importance only rose in the all out effort of Ichigo.

Regards