MWiF Map Review - America

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Mingus Roberts
No really... the Yukon River runs through Lake Laberge past Whitehorse and south. The piece you have put on the map, from the Bering Sea to central Alaska, is only half of the run of the third largest river in North America. Can you fix it Patrice?

MR

Yes, I'm sure there are a lot of rivers that are not depicted up to their source.
Maybe this is because they do not represent an obstacle to movement past a certain point ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
For the record and as I said previously, I am absolutely against non-WWII or at least non miitary historical references as this cheapens the overall effect of these stunning maps - although concede that as he provided us with the worlds greatest WWII game, Harry Rowland should be allowed to keep reference to his house[;)]

There are less than 10 of these non WW2 names that cheapens the overall effect of these maps, out of more than 3500 names on the map.
I think that they has 0 effect on the overall effect of these maps.

[Norman42]

I am absolutely against non-WWII or at least non miitary historical references as this cheapens the overall effect of these stunning maps

I couldn't agree more.


I even think putting on the locations of battles and sunk ships is a bit much. Locations and historical place names that are standard across every game (ie El Alamien is El Alamien no matter what happens during a game; it's a place, not a battle) are fine, but subjective locations (ie the Bismarck didn't sink in *this* game, why is it sunk on the map?) strike me as misguided.

Neither the location of the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, nor the location of a film made in 2005 belong on a WW2 map. It isn't a tourist guide.

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I still don't think Monte Cassino should be put on the map in a clear hex, that looks kinda silly and should be left off the list.

The solution is to remove the word Monte. While the attack on the monastery at the top of the mountain is the most famous aspect of this offensive, in fact fighting took place all along the line, especially in the valley ... where lies the town of Cassino.

[composer99]

I would also prefer not to see names of sunk ships on the map - they're not going to sink in the same place in my game as they did in the war, likely as not, so why would I want their spot to be on the map? Likewise with land battles. If I want to see where ships sank & battles happened, I can look it up in a book or online.
 
If all that stuff gets added, and it should be if enough people (obviously including Steve) want to have it, then at least make it an Easter egg.

[cockney]

I think as Steve is doing such a fine job and he wants to add some flavour I think thats cool, but if it looks like so much clutter then perhaps the Easter egg idea is a valid compramise

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: cockney

I think as Steve is doing such a fine job and he wants to add some flavour I think thats cool, but if it looks like so much clutter then perhaps the Easter egg idea is a valid compramise

I am not the moving force here.

For cosmetics, like the map, I let the forum members debate most issues and I only intervene if I see a reason to do so (e.g., requires new code).

I do have my preferences/standards and if I feel they are too badly violated, I always have the option of making a unilateral decision. But ideally, the forum members figure out what is best. Compromise and consensus.[:)]

Though it probably is a distorted sample of the people who will buy the game, the forum members are the best sample I have and are definitely a better representation than me deciding all by my lonesome.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
The solution is to remove the word Monte. While the attack on the monastery at the top of the mountain is the most famous aspect of this offensive, in fact fighting took place all along the line, especially in the valley ... where lies the town of Cassino.

This was done some months ago, someone suggested it.

[Astarix]

In Northern Minnesota, the river which goes from Lake of the Woods to Lake Superior, should be labeled the Pigeon River and the river hexsides should continue all the way to Lake Superior along the international border.  More accurately the hexside which runs along the international border from Lake of the Woods that has the rail crossing is the Rainey river.  The next 2 hexsides should be a lake hexside labeled Rainey Lake and then the river should continue from Rainey Lake to Lake Superior as the Pigeon River.  Rainey lake runs approximately 100 KM along the Minnesota, Ontario border and averages about 20km wide north to south.
 
An arguement could also be made, that the border hexes running east from Lake of the Woods to Lake Superior should be swamp hexes.  This area is essentially a wilderness, even today.  If you look at a modern map of Northern Minnesota and Southern Ontario, there are very few paved roads in this region.  In the 40's many of the roads that are now paved were single lane roads meant to move raw timber and and provide access to the Iron Mines and the towns adjoining them in the region.  There are quite literally thousands of lakes in this area along with large numbers of small rivers and streams connecting them all.  This area is also rife with peat bogs and swamps.  It could also be argued that the very North Eastern most hex of this area could be a mountain hex with mountain hexes along this shore up to the outlet river for Lake Nipigon.  These hills rise from the lake shore, which is at 602 ft above sea level to in some places 2-3000 ft above sea level, within the space of a couple of miles, and in some places you have basaltic cliffs that are several hundred feet high right at the waters edge.  It is very rugged and forested terrain, with at best, logging trails for access and large numbers of lakes, swamps and wetlands.
 
South of the immediate border hexes from the Lake of the Woods to Lake Superior all of the hexes including the hex the RP is in should be wooded. 
 
The hex row that includes the city of Duluth to the hex just west of the northern most hex including a Mississippi River hexside should be forested as well.  The 2 hexes to the NW of the last Mississippi Hexside should also be forested.  The City of Duluth itself is actually on the very north shore of the tip of Lake Superior, although I understand why it is located where it is, to avoid the rail line in the hex crossing water.  In this instance though, it would not be unrealistic as there was, in fact, a rail line running across the very edge of the Duluth-Superior Harbor that carried Iron Ore into Superior Wisconsin to be loaded onto Ore carriers. 
 
The Harbor itself is formed by the mouth of the St. Louis River and the last 60 miles of the river is very swampy and forested and the valley carved by the river is several miles wide just before it empties into Lake Superior.  Thus why the city of Duluth should be forested.  I also believe that the 3 clear hexes East of the Mississippi located south of Duluth should probably be forested as well. 
 
This entire region I described is full of lakes, forests, small rivers, swamps, peat bogs, Glacial Morraines, etc.  While parts of it are clear for agricultural use, large clear areas are definitely not the predominate land type.
 
You also may want to look into adding a couple of hexsides for the St. Croix river from the hexide that divides the label for St. Paul, then 1 hex to the NE and then maybe 1 more hex to the North.  The River in this area is wide enough to impede easy crossing.  The banks of the river are very steep in many places and generally are 30-40 feet above the river bed.  To the South of the Mississippi (at the hexide that divides the label for the Mississippi) you could reasonably add several Hexsides running generally SW for the Minnesota River, at least to where the location of Mankato is on a map.  The river valley in this area is wide and filled with marshy and lake filled lowlands.  In the Minneapolis-St. Paul region where it merges with the Mississippi the valley is over a mile wide with bluffs on both banks that are as much as 100ft high where it joins the Mississippi.
 
In Southern Wisconsin, the two hexes west of the hex that the Lable for Wisconsin starts and the one hex immediately to the west of the single forested hex here should be forested as well to represent a region called the Driftless Area, that escaped glaciation in the last Ice Age.  This area is dominated by very large hills, small rivers, forests and large bluffs along the Mississippi river.  The hills in this area are very rugged and steep. 
 
You should lable the RP hex in Northern Minnesota, The Mesabi Range.  In the Chippewa Language it means "Giant".  The ore deposits in this area were discovered in 1887 and began being commercially exploited in 1895.  From the turn of the 20th Century until today, Northern Minnesota has produced 75% of the domestically mined Iron Ore.  There is an Open Pit Iron Mine just outside of Hibbing called the Rust-Hull-Manoming mine that has produced 700million tons of comercial grade ore since it opened.  It is the largest Open Pit Iron Mine in the world and the second largest Open Pit Mine in North America.  During WWII this single mine produced 25% of all the Iron Ore used in the U.S.
 
Final couple of points.  In Michigan between the upper and lower peninsulas there is a railroad crossing that I don't believe existed during this time.  Its in the same Hex as the Crossing Arrow, which is known as the Mackinac straits.  Also, there should be a River Hexside where the rail line crosses from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan Into Canada.  This river hexside connects Lake Superior to Lake Huron and is the location of the Soo Locks, which were built in the 20's to allow Ore Carriers from Duluth to access the steel mills in the cities along the Shores of Lake Michigan and Lake Erie.
 
I love the maps on the whole and I really appreciate the detail and effort that has gone into creating them, despite all of my comments above. [8D]  I am a long time WiF fan and have been following these threads fairly religiously, even though this is my first time posting. 
 
I've lived in the Upper Midwest for 40 years.  Spent a lot of time hunting and fishing in Northern Minnesota.  No better place on Earth, even if the Winters can get insanely cold. [:)]
 
Jason
 
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Astarix

In Northern Minnesota, the river which goes from Lake of the Woods to Lake Superior, should be labeled the Pigeon River and the river hexsides should continue all the way to Lake Superior along the international border.  More accurately the hexside which runs along the international border from Lake of the Woods that has the rail crossing is the Rainey river.  The next 2 hexsides should be a lake hexside labeled Rainey Lake and then the river should continue from Rainey Lake to Lake Superior as the Pigeon River.  Rainey lake runs approximately 100 KM along the Minnesota, Ontario border and averages about 20km wide north to south.

An arguement could also be made, that the border hexes running east from Lake of the Woods to Lake Superior should be swamp hexes.  This area is essentially a wilderness, even today.  If you look at a modern map of Northern Minnesota and Southern Ontario, there are very few paved roads in this region.  In the 40's many of the roads that are now paved were single lane roads meant to move raw timber and and provide access to the Iron Mines and the towns adjoining them in the region.  There are quite literally thousands of lakes in this area along with large numbers of small rivers and streams connecting them all.  This area is also rife with peat bogs and swamps.  It could also be argued that the very North Eastern most hex of this area could be a mountain hex with mountain hexes along this shore up to the outlet river for Lake Nipigon.  These hills rise from the lake shore, which is at 602 ft above sea level to in some places 2-3000 ft above sea level, within the space of a couple of miles, and in some places you have basaltic cliffs that are several hundred feet high right at the waters edge.  It is very rugged and forested terrain, with at best, logging trails for access and large numbers of lakes, swamps and wetlands.

South of the immediate border hexes from the Lake of the Woods to Lake Superior all of the hexes including the hex the RP is in should be wooded. 

The hex row that includes the city of Duluth to the hex just west of the northern most hex including a Mississippi River hexside should be forested as well.  The 2 hexes to the NW of the last Mississippi Hexside should also be forested.  The City of Duluth itself is actually on the very north shore of the tip of Lake Superior, although I understand why it is located where it is, to avoid the rail line in the hex crossing water.  In this instance though, it would not be unrealistic as there was, in fact, a rail line running across the very edge of the Duluth-Superior Harbor that carried Iron Ore into Superior Wisconsin to be loaded onto Ore carriers. 

The Harbor itself is formed by the mouth of the St. Louis River and the last 60 miles of the river is very swampy and forested and the valley carved by the river is several miles wide just before it empties into Lake Superior.  Thus why the city of Duluth should be forested.  I also believe that the 3 clear hexes East of the Mississippi located south of Duluth should probably be forested as well. 

This entire region I described is full of lakes, forests, small rivers, swamps, peat bogs, Glacial Morraines, etc.  While parts of it are clear for agricultural use, large clear areas are definitely not the predominate land type.

You also may want to look into adding a couple of hexsides for the St. Croix river from the hexide that divides the label for St. Paul, then 1 hex to the NE and then maybe 1 more hex to the North.  The River in this area is wide enough to impede easy crossing.  The banks of the river are very steep in many places and generally are 30-40 feet above the river bed.  To the South of the Mississippi (at the hexide that divides the label for the Mississippi) you could reasonably add several Hexsides running generally SW for the Minnesota River, at least to where the location of Mankato is on a map.  The river valley in this area is wide and filled with marshy and lake filled lowlands.  In the Minneapolis-St. Paul region where it merges with the Mississippi the valley is over a mile wide with bluffs on both banks that are as much as 100ft high where it joins the Mississippi.

In Southern Wisconsin, the two hexes west of the hex that the Lable for Wisconsin starts and the one hex immediately to the west of the single forested hex here should be forested as well to represent a region called the Driftless Area, that escaped glaciation in the last Ice Age.  This area is dominated by very large hills, small rivers, forests and large bluffs along the Mississippi river.  The hills in this area are very rugged and steep. 

You should lable the RP hex in Northern Minnesota, The Mesabi Range.  In the Chippewa Language it means "Giant".  The ore deposits in this area were discovered in 1887 and began being commercially exploited in 1895.  From the turn of the 20th Century until today, Northern Minnesota has produced 75% of the domestically mined Iron Ore.  There is an Open Pit Iron Mine just outside of Hibbing called the Rust-Hull-Manoming mine that has produced 700million tons of comercial grade ore since it opened.  It is the largest Open Pit Iron Mine in the world and the second largest Open Pit Mine in North America.  During WWII this single mine produced 25% of all the Iron Ore used in the U.S.

Final couple of points.  In Michigan between the upper and lower peninsulas there is a railroad crossing that I don't believe existed during this time.  Its in the same Hex as the Crossing Arrow, which is known as the Mackinac straits.  Also, there should be a River Hexside where the rail line crosses from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan Into Canada.  This river hexside connects Lake Superior to Lake Huron and is the location of the Soo Locks, which were built in the 20's to allow Ore Carriers from Duluth to access the steel mills in the cities along the Shores of Lake Michigan and Lake Erie.

I love the maps on the whole and I really appreciate the detail and effort that has gone into creating them, despite all of my comments above. [8D]  I am a long time WiF fan and have been following these threads fairly religiously, even though this is my first time posting. 

I've lived in the Upper Midwest for 40 years.  Spent a lot of time hunting and fishing in Northern Minnesota.  No better place on Earth, even if the Winters can get insanely cold. [:)]

Jason

Welcome.

Wow! Now if we could just find someone who knew that area ...[:D]

I'll let Patrice see what he can do with all your suggested improvements. I know he'll be delighted to have a name for the resource. And I am happy to finally know where all the iron ore comes from that is processed using the mountains of Pennsylvania and West Virginia coal to make steel.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I would keep it to the more famous ships..like Bismarck, Hood, Prince of Wales, Yamato, Musashi, Murat, and add in a couple locations where ships were sunk en masse like Midway, Pearl, Taranto harbor, Ironbottom sound, PQ17..I wouldn't get too crazy..I do want to play this some time[:'(]

Murat ?
And no Yorktown, Lexington, Wasp or other CV ?

I only put Murat down because it was a Russian BB so that by itself makes it unique plus the fact it was sunk by a stuka.

If it was up to me, I would only put down those that were pretty famous or were lost in some unique fashion or some famous battle. It would be nice to have a little "blurb" to go along with when and how it was sunk.

It would also be easier this way too..so in the case of the Yorktown..you could include it in the general location of the "Battle for Midway" write-up that also includes the Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, and Soryu.

The same would go with the Lexington with a "Coral Sea" write-up that indicates that was the first carrier to carrier battle.

As for the Wasp, it was just a lucky sub hit..nothing remarkable about how or when it was lost..the Hornet..same goes there unless you have a write-up for the eastern solomons battle.

You have to draw the line somewhere..

I would include those ships sunk in port if it was a result of a unique event..I'm doing this from memory..so there are bound to be more but I would include the following:

Royal Oak - sunk by U-47 in what was supposed to be an impenetrable Scapa Flow at the outset of the war
Bismarck and Hood - needs no explanation..famous encounter
Prince of wales and Repulse - 1st capital ships sunk at sea solely by airpower
Marat - only Russian BB sunk and by a stuka at that
Italian BBs at Taranto - famous encounter..sunk by a bunch of torpedo biplanes
BB's at Pearl Harbor - needs no explanation..famous encounter
Lexington and Shoho? I think that's right..Coral Sea..first carrier to carrier battle
Carriers sunk at Midway..again no need for explanation..include yorktown and all 4 Japanese carriers sunk
Graf Spee - another famous encounter..not too many pocket BB's out there..let alone in the south Atlantic
Ironbottom sound - here I would list a few of the famous ships collecting barnacles there..including BB's Kirishima, Hiei, maybe the Juneau with the 5 Sullivan brothers, Pt 109, possibly a few more
Musahsi - just because its one of the 2 biggest
Yamato - same as above
Tirpitz - just cuz it caused the allies such a headache just by sitting in a Fjord
PQ 17 - a pretty disasterous encounter in the arctic
USS Indianapolis - cuz they all got ate by sharks..and they had just delivered the 1st a-bomb
Shinano - sunk on maidan voyage and step-sister to the Yamato
Taiho - sunk on maiden voyage

I'm sure I could think of more..but these are ones that really stick in my mind as worthy of an extra write-up.

Andy

[Sabre21]

Another option..and I know Steve will love me for this..is to put a little set of crossed sabres at places of famous battles..not too many mind you..but this could include those ships sunk and the strategic or tactical outcome..
 
This could be naval, ground, and air. So one could be "Battle of the Atlantic"..covers the story about the U-boats, then you have "Battle of Britain",
also Stalingrad, Kursk, Midway, Guadacanal, Coral Sea, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, Philipine Sea, Singapore, El Alamein, Tobruk, Dunkirk, Pearl Harbor,
...these are battles that I believe had a serious impact on the outcome of the war..there are no doubt more..and I could list several hundred others battles but they don't have the importance as I think those above do.
 
There are also special events that could warrant a battle write-up..like Dolittle's Raid, the Dieppe Raid, the assault on Eban Emael, Merril's Marauders,
or even more large scale operations like "Barbarossa" or "Torch".
 
Ok..time to get back to these air-write-ups..I've procrastinated long enough[:D]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Another option..and I know Steve will love me for this..is to put a little set of crossed sabres at places of famous battles..not too many mind you..but this could include those ships sunk and the strategic or tactical outcome..

This could be naval, ground, and air. So one could be "Battle of the Atlantic"..covers the story about the U-boats, then you have "Battle of Britain",
also Stalingrad, Kursk, Midway, Guadacanal, Coral Sea, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, Philipine Sea, Singapore, El Alamein, Tobruk, Dunkirk, Pearl Harbor,
...these are battles that I believe had a serious impact on the outcome of the war..there are no doubt more..and I could list several hundred others battles but they don't have the importance as I think those above do.

There are also special events that could warrant a battle write-up..like Dolittle's Raid, the Dieppe Raid, the assault on Eban Emael, Merril's Marauders,
or even more large scale operations like "Barbarossa" or "Torch".

Ok..time to get back to these air-write-ups..I've procrastinated long enough[:D]

While interesting, these are out-of-scope for MWIF product 1. In particular, anything other than placing a simple label on the map would require additional code.

[Norman42]

This entire region I described is full of lakes, forests, small rivers, swamps, peat bogs, Glacial Morraines, etc.

Having lived in the region as well, and hunted and fished through all these areas, I can back this up.

I cannot think of any terrain in the world that would be harder to campaign through. The wilderness on both sides of the border in Northern Minnesota/Ontario are truely the extreme definition of 'rough terrain' and liberally sprinkling swamps in this region is quite realistic; you literally can't walk 500 feet without falling into a small lake/river/bog, or walking straight off a rocky escarpment... into another lake or bog.

'Mesabi Range' (or 'Iron Range', I've heard both used for the iron mining region North and West of Duluth) would be acceptable for the resource here.

Don't get me started on the size of the mosquitoes there. I swear one carried off a moose I shot...

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Astarix
I've lived in the Upper Midwest for 40 years.  Spent a lot of time hunting and fishing in Northern Minnesota.  No better place on Earth, even if the Winters can get insanely cold. [:)]

It looks like you know the area quite well Jason.

Could you help me having a better understanding of what you propose to change, by editing the attached reduced screenshot ?
Just using Paint and marking F for Forest, S for Swamp and M for mountain, and drawing blue lines for rivers should be enough for me.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Astarix
You should lable the RP hex in Northern Minnesota, The Mesabi Range.  In the Chippewa Language it means "Giant".  The ore deposits in this area were discovered in 1887 and began being commercially exploited in 1895.  From the turn of the 20th Century until today, Northern Minnesota has produced 75% of the domestically mined Iron Ore.  There is an Open Pit Iron Mine just outside of Hibbing called the Rust-Hull-Manoming mine that has produced 700million tons of comercial grade ore since it opened.  It is the largest Open Pit Iron Mine in the world and the second largest Open Pit Mine in North America.  During WWII this single mine produced 25% of all the Iron Ore used in the U.S.

I have lebelled it Hibbing, as I prefer to label RP hexes with a city / town name. However, I also put the Mesabi Range name as a geographical feature (white).

Final couple of points.  In Michigan between the upper and lower peninsulas there is a railroad crossing that I don't believe existed during this time.  Its in the same Hex as the Crossing Arrow, which is known as the Mackinac straits.  Also, there should be a River Hexside where the rail line crosses from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan Into Canada.  This river hexside connects Lake Superior to Lake Huron and is the location of the Soo Locks, which were built in the 20's to allow Ore Carriers from Duluth to access the steel mills in the cities along the Shores of Lake Michigan and Lake Erie.

This river hexside is already there, but partly hidden by the border with Canada.
As for the railroad crossing at Mackinac straits, it exists on the WiF FE maps, and the 1940 maps I have show railways on both sides of the straits, so for the MWiF game, there is a crossing.

Could you make me a sketch map of which hexes you'd see as forested, and which you'd sea swamp or mountain ? Also add the rivers you think should be present.

Converting clear hexes to forest in north easterern Minnessota and northern Wisconsin seems to make sense from what you say and from the map I look at, but for the mountains hexes I am less sure.

[sajbalk]

I will state for the record that the map of Iowa looks just fine.

As to the Easter Eggs, I like them. They add a little fun to the game, and this is the purpose for the game. Map clutter at normal resolutions should not be a problem.

[Sewerlobster]

ORIGINAL: Norman42
you literally can't walk 500 feet without falling into a small lake/river/bog, or walking straight off a rocky escarpment... into another lake or bog.

You write with a frustrated tone of one who has tried -- again and again. 496 -- 497 -- 49 aaagh! --- 1 -- 2 [:D]

[Astarix]

As you can see, my freehand Paint skills are minimal at best. At any rate, I added in a rail line along which Iron Ore is and was transported.

About the Mackinac crossing, there was no crossing of the Mackinac straits until they opened the Highway bridge in 1962. The winds in the straits can hit 100miles per hour. There may have been rail lines into the hexes on either side of the straits, but actually building a trestle over 9 miles long in those straits would have been an engineering nightmare. The Interstate 75 bridge that exists there now, took 4 years to construct, and is one of the longest suspension bridges on the planet. There are ports on the southern side of the Upper Peninisula that are connected by rail, which I believe, represents the rail line you are talking about. On the Lower Peninsula rail lines run along both shores of the Peninsula, but there was no possible way that a rail trestle could have crossed the straits and still allowed Shipping traffic through the straits. The rest of the rail lines in this area are accurate.

Also, I was unable to add the Minnesota River in Southern Minnesota as the last couple of hex rows were cropped off.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Astarix

As you can see, my freehand Paint skills are minimal at best. At any rate, I added in a rail line along which Iron Ore is and was transported.

About the Mackinac crossing, there was no crossing of the Mackinac straits until they opened the Highway bridge in 1962. The winds in the straits can hit 100miles per hour. There may have been rail lines into the hexes on either side of the straits, but actually building a trestle over 9 miles long in those straits would have been an engineering nightmare. The Interstate 75 bridge that exists there now, took 4 years to construct, and is one of the longest suspension bridges on the planet. There are ports on the southern side of the Upper Peninisula that are connected by rail, which I believe, represents the rail line you are talking about. On the Lower Peninsula rail lines run along both shores of the Peninsula, but there was no possible way that a rail trestle could have crossed the straits and still allowed Shipping traffic through the straits. The rest of the rail lines in this area are accurate.

Also, I was unable to add the Minnesota River in Southern Minnesota as the last couple of hex rows were cropped off.

I take it that S is for swamp and W is for forest (woods)? M is for?

What Patrice meant by the straits hexside is that a ferry can be used to connect rail lines. For example, the rail line crossing the Kerch straits in Crimea can be used as if it were a continuous rail line for the purpose of rail movement.