ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Great, my initial response timed out. Someone asked for options, so here we go again:
ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
If Germany would have taken out the BEF at Dunkirk with the Panzers,
warspite1
....or if Gamelin hadn't gone for the Breda Variant or Loerzer listened to von Kleist or Guderian remained sacked or many of the German panzer commanders not disobeyed orders [:)].....
POINT 1 Points answered below
All other things the same except the German panzers and the rest of the army at Dunkirk continues to advance. Then, some armour - maybe even a panzer division - refits.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
The paratroopers in transports form up like a bomber force attacking England
warspite1
How many Ju-52 did the Germans lose in Holland, Belgium and France? I'd be interested to know how many they had left for any such major operation, where they would be needed for all sorts of tasks including supply. Let's be clear - no where near enough.
According to Schenk, there were enough for the 7th FliegerDivision but none to spare (and insufficient gliders anyway) to allow the 22nd Air Landing to be used. So enough for the 7th but that is without all these other tasks they are being assigned. Holland and Belgium - even with limited air defence - also shows just how vulnerable these precious aircraft were. 50% were lost in Holland alone....
POINT 2
The Ju-90 could carry 40 passengers, not many built only about 18 or so but some were still around. It had a door for vehicles and heavy cargo.
Some 276 FW Condors built, maybe not all yet, but they could carry 26 passengers.
So, those two aircraft should at least be able to carry half that many paratroopers - maybe more since they would not need to have that much fuel.
The German glider could carry 9 men and 270 kg or 600 lbs of equipment. It could do a 80 degree dive, land, and stop within 60 meters. Or it could carry 1200 kgs or 2600 pounds of cargo. They are reusable. This could be towed by a Me-109 or a Ju-87.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
behind a real bomber force hitting the radar installations
warspite1
But that re-writes history and assumes the Germans understood radar and that they couldn't hit the towers once and that was it. Let's be clear. They didn't. And Radar remained operational.
POINT 3
They understood radar and had some of their own although not as good. But keep attacking the sites, even use gliders to land troops to destroy them. Get back to the glider, load the air brake or cut the cords, send up a balloon if need be to have an aircraft grab the tow rope and take off. That is, if there was no suitable emergency landing and take off strip nearby.
Just make a gap in the radar coverage so the British don't see what is forming up over France and when. The the British would have to rely on ground observers or air craft in flight to see the Luftwaffe aircraft - any aircraft could then be shot down as well.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
then a quick paradrop to capture at least one airfield.
warspite1
More paras and more Ju-52....wow. Given that the Germans aren't going to put radar out, what are the RAF doing at this point?
POINT 4
The RAF is reacting. If the radar is put out as mentioned above, then the RAF will have to have a standing CAP which can be targeted a well.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
with a few barges loaded and coming across the channel to grab some beach front property.
warspite1
When do these barges - moving at circa 3 knots - have to leave port to make it to this beach front property? Isn't that a kind of long range warning sign right there?
POINT 5
Not if they set out at night. If they practice loading, shifting the barges, then unloading, it might lull the British. Then, one night, the barges start across landing tanks, artillery, other vehicles, more men, and supplies.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
The air base would have fuel, supplies, and ground personnel for Luftwaffe planes that need help but they don't need to be based there, just stage them from France and top off the fighters fuel cells. This would effectively enhance their range, provide more time over the target, avoid the Channel radars, and hopefully save air crews from capture from aircraft that would otherwise be lost over the Channel.
The ground troops would consolidate their positions and enhance them. They would move out and try to get at least one airbase away from the coast so it would not be under Naval bombardment. More troops, supplies, and equipment would be flown in to increase their lodgment. If necessary, Luftwaffe bombers could also bring in supplies or just paradrop them although they might be needed as flying artillery.
warspite1
Sorry where have all these troops come from? Not to mention the fuel and supplies and ground personnel?
POINT 6
These would be the initial landing troops. The distance is not all that far and the Ju-52s could make more than one trip per day. Paratroopers could also drop out of the bomb bay of bombers, which could also drop supplies and equipment. With an air field in possession, it gets even easier and more can be landed and offloaded since no parachutes would be needed.
Any trucks, cars, tractors, horses with wagons or carts captured would be used by the Germans.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With mines laid in a corridor in the Channel with U-boats and E-boats, that could hamper the RN a little bit.
warspite1
Do the Royal Navy have
any say in all this?... or Bomber Command?
POINT 7
Yes, they do. But most of the Royal Navy is not in the area or it would be bombed. Bomber command would try and interfere but they would run into Me-109s and Me-110s. Those could ruin a bombers whole day.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Especially if the Kriegsmarine staged a breakout attempt with some heavy surface raiders to distract the Royal Navy.
warspite1
Lolzer. After Norway, which heavy surface raiders are these exactly? Have you seen what the Germans had intact and undamaged in June/July/August 1940?
POINT 8
Temporary repairs could be made, then the ships could sail and do so in order to be seen. The Royal Navy may not know the extent of the damage and would have to react accordingly. So would Coastal Command. Hopefully, the North Atlantic and Arctic Ocean weather patterns would help hide the fact that the Kriegsmarine is not there. The Royal Navy could also sail into freshly laid minefields with U-boats patrolling. The U-boats then go south to the Channel area.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
If Little Bennie wanted in, Italy should have consulted with Germany and arranged plans for Gibralter, Malta, and the Suez/Port Said.
warspite1
I'd love to have seen this. Firstly the British allow any old unidentified merchant vessel into these ports? And allow any old unidentified ship into the canal itself?
POINT 9
Yes. Remember that Italy and the United Kingdom are not at war yet. These could either appear to be normal troop movements to/from East Africa or a civilian passenger liner stopping at The Rock. Spanish dock workers could either be co-opted or even some Italians pretending to be Spanish could have checked out the defenses at The Rock.
How many troops get ashore, what equipment can they possibly have, and how do they get re-supplied? What are the British troops doing in the meantime?
For the Rock, either be ashore as tourists who pick up some stashed weapons deposited there by Spaniards or Italians pretending to be Spaniards or troops debarking from passenger liners in uniforms with weapons. Do so through the cargo hatch so they would not be seen on deck. The defenses would be lightly manned most likely.
For the Suez, it could simply be a ship leaving mines behind until it sinks in the Canal to block it. That could render it unusable for a few days. The Royal Navy would not be able to reinforce or retreat easily until the Canal was cleared unless it decided to run the gauntlet of the Central Med.
Which of these three operations is going to get any Regia Marina support? This is the RM without the Littorios and the two Andrea Dorias just coming back into service.
First and foremost would be Malta where there was already a plan:
Invasion plan DG10/42
Italian battleship Giulio Cesare firing during the Battle of Calabria, on 9 July 1940
In 1938 Mussolini had considered an invasion of Malta under Plan DG10/42, in which a force of 40,000 men would capture the island. Nearly all 80 purpose-built sea craft that would land the Italian Army ashore were expected to be lost but landings would be made in the north, with an attack upon the Victoria Lines, across the centre of the island. A secondary landing would be made on Gozo, north-west of Malta and the islet of Comino, between the two. All of the Italian navy and 500 aircraft would be involved, but the lack of supplies led the planners to believe that the operation could not be carried out. With the German success in the Battle of France from May–June 1940, the plan was reduced to 20,000 men with the addition of tanks. The Allied defeat in France gave the Italians an opportunity to seize Malta but Italian intelligence overestimated the Maltese defences and Mussolini thought that an invasion would be unnecessary once Britain made peace. Mussolini also expected Francoist Spain to join the Axis and capture Gibraltar, which would close the Mediterranean to the British from the west.[36]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_ ... mber_1940)
The supplies could have been found and be waiting. The 10th Army could have stayed put and thus would have had the supplies where they were at. The 5th Army could also have stayed where it was at so no supplies needed for moving. With the Royal Navy at either end of the Med, there was only one monitor and two gunboats at Malta.
There were six Sea Gladiators assembled and six more to be assembled. Three of these were named Faith, Hope, and Charity. Not much air cover against the Italian Air Force. There was one airfield almost completed.
There were 4 regular infantry battalions and one territorial infantry battalion. There may have been some light armour besides Bren carriers. They may have been two artillery regiments of 24 guns each, one of 18 pounders and one of 25 pounders. The coastal defense guns could not fire too much against land targets.
If only the Italians had tried that......
True. If the Italians had tried that in the Med and were successful in a blitz, then two German Panzer divisions and two Motorized divisions along with good (
) Italian armoured formations and mobile infantry formations, then Egypt may have been captured. That would make the Eastern Med secure and Central Med more secure. If Gibraltar could be quickly captured, the entire Med would be secure except for any possible Vichy French action.
The airborne landings in England would be a blitz type along with the force sent across the Channel to grab some beachfront property. But the British would be surprised and the Royal Navy would be out of position. As long as the Germans could get an airfield away from British Naval bombardment and kept operating otherwise, then more men, equipment, and supplies could be flown in.
Do these operations fast and surprise is on your side. Negate the British radar and lessen the distance that the Luftwaffe is from a safe place to land and it takes away the biggest RAF advantage.
warspite1
Answers to the points above
1. Sure, if you want to now make the scenario that things happen differently in Case Yellow then that’s fine but I’m not hugely interested. I mean, the halt order was given and Dunkirk did happen. Changing what actually happened at Dunkirk before discussing Sea Lion? it becomes fantasy: let’s assume the Germans don’t make the mistakes they made, while the British continue to make theirs…..
2. I’ve quoted from a German historian that there were insufficient gliders after the Low Countries, but you are still suggesting they be used?
As for the aircraft, you mention using other aircraft as paratroop carriers – I’ve no idea as to their availability, their actual nos. or to what extent they could be used for para drops. But sure, if you want to use the few FW-200 on this mission then fine. At least they won’t be giving the convoys a hard time flying from France into the Bay of Biscay/Atlantic - and there will be so many lost over the UK that they won't be troubling the scorers in future either.
3. I’ve explained that the Germans didn’t understand the need to put the British Radar out of action. But if you don't believe me I can tell you what Goering said about attacks on the radar stations if you like?
During one meeting Goering questioned the need for continued attacks on the radar towers "as the British have lots of radar stations" and none had been put out of action. This comment was not an order, it was a throw away line as though the whole subject was of little importance.
Source: (Bungay)
The Most Dangerous Enemy
I repeat, if Goering didn't realise the importance of keeping the stations down, then the Germans weren't going to do it.
And please don’t say I suggested the Germans didn’t know or understand about Radar itself. What they didn’t understand was the importance of knocking out the towers and that that wasn’t a one-off - that is historical fact as per above.
4. “If the Radar is put out”. Well as stated above if my auntie had balls she’d be my uncle. If we are totally re-writing history here, and the Germans suddenly know the importance of keeping these towers down, can we pretend the British had raised an extra five infantry divisions and 2 armoured divisions that they never sent to France?
5. “Not if they set out at night”. So regardless of what time they set out, are you saying that in a 36 hour journey it will always be night?
When is this all supposed to be happening again? Suddenly you have plenty of time for the conversion of the barges and dummy runs.
Suppose in the many dummy load/unload scenarios you are having the Germans running, this coincides with one of the air attacks the British mounted (and cost the Germans circa 10% of their precious barges)? That’s expensive isn’t it?
6. “The distance is not all that far”…. Okay I’m not going to comment on this point. The answers to other points cover off my thoughts here.
7. Okay. So let’s get this completely clear. If British bombers seek to interfere with the slow moving barges, then the German fighters destroy them. But if the Germans send over slow moving, lumbering Ju-52, Ju-90, Fw-200 and whatever, the RAF can’t touch them? (I say again, look at how many Ju-52 the Germans lost in Holland alone). Have I got the gist of what you are saying? The stuka had to be withdrawn from the Battle of Britain because of its vulnerability and mounting losses, but you have these even slower transport aircraft flying men here there and everywhere without a problem? Oh and the Germans would bomb the Royal Navy so none of their ships can get to the invasion fleet. Wow.
Sounds like the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot on steroids - with British planes and ships as the turkeys. Cool.
All this despite the fact that the Germans lost the BoB. But in this scenario what are the German fighters doing? They are escorting their bombers seeking to neutralise fighter airfields (same as BoB) they are escorting their aerial artillery which are supporting the landings. They are escorting paratroop filled aircraft, they are escorting gliders (that have suddenly re-appeared from the dead) on missions to destroy radar towers (that historically they don't even know need destroying), they are escorting the slow moving barges headed for England, they are escorting ships heading back to France. The German fighters suddenly have their hands even fuller, even more operations to fly. While the RAF, that never committed anything more than a small % of their strength at any time, have the option of bringing in everything.
8. “Temporary repairs could be made”. So what is the condition of the 5 German heavy surface ships? Scharnhorst required 6 months of repair due to a torpedo hit, the Gneisenau required 5 months of repair due to a torpedo hit, Lutzow required a year of repairs due to a torpedo hit, Graf Spee was already very much sunk. The only ship operational – and that was not until the end of July was Admiral Scheer. That leaves the three heavy cruisers. Well Blucher is at the bottom of a Norwegian fjord, Prinz Eugen wasn’t worked up for service until late 1940/early1941 and Admiral Hipper was ordered into the arctic on a raiding patrol and by the time she finished, at the beginning of August, was in need of a refit (having been damaged during Weserubung). So no, temporary repairs could not be made and at a pinch, one ship was available from August onwards.
9. “Yes. Remember that Italy and the United Kingdom are not at war yet”. The British are blockading Italy and they are fully aware that Italy could join the war on the Axis side at any time! But you say the British will allow, without any checks, an unidentified merchant ship into the naval bases at Gibraltar and Malta and to enter the Suez Canal? Absolute and total fantasy.
As we’ve discussed before, the only operation that was possible was an assault on Malta. That could have succeeded if the Italians had put everything into it – and I mean everything. Sheers numbers, lack of defenders and proximity to Sicily should have allowed even the Italian military to achieve success.
; Julia Child
