Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by jwilkerson »

Hi, well there you go. I know all about this I have opponents who refuse to capture isolated bases just so they can fly easy bombing missions. Each turn 200 aircraft bomb.
If were going to start including exploits and gamey play were never going to be able to understand the model.

every single game system ever invented produces players who find ways around the system.

But considering the "primacy" of exp in the air model - it is understandable that people would want to train up their aircrew - and it is not 100% unrealistic - but would be nice if the exp gain was extremely more logarithmic after 70 ... especially for missions not equal to the primary mission of the airtype. And the aircargo mission shouldn't help bombers much after exp = 30 has been reached !

Oh well - dreams - back to the "topic" I supposed ...



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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

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And the aircargo mission shouldn't help bombers much after exp = 30 has been reached

3x YES!!! Imho, one of the biggest exploits, especially when source and target base are the same. sorry to be OT [:)]
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Tristanjohn »

ORIGINAL: doktorblood

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

It's not "statistically trivial" IMO. IN face to face encounters between the F4F and the A6M the F4F consistently won or achieved a draw. These include Coral Sea, Midway VMF, Midway USN, and 4 months of consistent air combat over Guadalcanal. The only clear cut victory was at Wake in Dec 1941. In light of the VMF F4Fs victory at Midway, I'd say that Wake and Midway VMF come out as a wash.

I've covered in some detail reasons why the USN did quite well. Better training at deflection shooting and better tactical doctrine being a big part of that. My suggestion all along has been that the flaws in the A2A model affects the game strategically because it makes risking Allied CVs against comparable numbers of Japanese CVs a very inadvisable idea. That is why I have suggested that part of the deal is to eliminate the Zero bonus.

You are supporting your claims by citing historical actions that are all outside of the Zero bonus time period. Not germane to the zero bonus question. A favourite trick of yours, it would seem. Inadmissible .... You have my ruling.

Your logic is backward, or if you prefer inside-out. You seem to believe that the Zero Bonus was something real, when in fact it is nothing more than a kind of artifact imposed by a game designer on one of his system's mathematical models. The Zero Bonus is not something which needs to be proven invalid (difficult in any case--proving negatives is an endless chore) but rather something which needs to be proven to be valid--that is, evidence needs to be presented that the Zero Bonus has validity based on historical results. There has to be a reason (and very good reason at that) to implement this kind of a dynamic. If no such reason can be presented, then the dynamic must be judged invalid.

The duration of the Zero Bonus within the game's structure is an arbitrary factor as well. It could just as easily extend from the beginning of the war through the end of 1941, or for any other period arbitrarily chosen by the designer. Again, this is not something which needs to be shown to be invalid but shown to be valid in the first place by that designer.

Mdiehl's analysis wants to show that at no point during the first six months of air-to-air combat (with the possible exception of engagements between Zeros and Hurricanes) is there any statistically-validated case to be made that a "Zero Bonus" was a factor in that combat. This provides us with a strong indication that the Zero Bonus is not valid, but rather invalid.

There are problems with the way Gary concocts his models. The Zero Bonus is a excellent example of one of these problems. He wants on the one hand to represent air-to-air combat as a mathematical equation of some kind, and then he just willy-nilly tosses in a Zero Bonus in an effort to "enhance" that model without a shred of statistical evidence that this artifact has any validity in fact. Mdiehl's effort has always been to demonstrate that based on historical results this artifact has no such validity. Again, something of the kind is difficult to prove--negative cases are always the most difficult to prove, often they are never proved but only strongly indicated, and the indication in this case thus far is very strong that in fact no such validity for a Zero Bonus exists.

But always keep in mind that most properly the onus of proof doesn't rest with mdiehl, it rests with the development team to prove (demonstrate beyond doubt) that the Zero Bonus does in fact (based on historical results, someway, somehow) serve a reasonable function within the context of the greater mathematical air-to-air-combat model. This case has yet to be made. And I seriously doubt it ever will be made, or that anyone at Matrix, much less Gary himself, would care to even begin to try.

Which is why I say with no little confidence that the Zero Bonus is as phony as a three-dollar bill. In principle alone it is a ridiculous piece of "game chrome" dreamed up by Gary for no other reason than to give the Game Boy crowd something to feel pleasingly-wet way down low about.

And by the way, even in the case of the Hurricanes no such "bonus" should come into play. For whatever reason the Hurricanes failed early on versus Zeros, this reason needs to be modeled satisfactorily in some other statistically-justifiable manner by the air-to-air combat model itself. I would guess that pilot experience would be the way to go there, and a few tests ought to answer that question quickly.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Tristanjohn »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Hi, well there you go. I know all about this I have opponents who refuse to capture isolated bases just so they can fly easy bombing missions. Each turn 200 aircraft bomb.
If were going to start including exploits and gamey play were never going to be able to understand the model.

every single game system ever invented produces players who find ways around the system.

But considering the "primacy" of exp in the air model - it is understandable that people would want to train up their aircrew - and it is not 100% unrealistic - but would be nice if the exp gain was extremely more logarithmic after 70 ...


More like 45-50 I'd venture. Ratings are sky high to begin with, then just rocket out of sight all over the board immediately the two sides confront each other seriously later on. There was apparently no thought given to this, or, whatever objections might have been raised by the more discerning were out-of-hand ignored. Either way, this aspect of play, too, leaves the serious player with a saccharine aftertaste in his mouth.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Big B

The Zero bonus is in my opinion now "much ado about nothing"

What I do think is wrong is a general 3 to 1 loss rate in a2a combat early in the war "WHEN THE NUMBERS ARE EQUAL OR ADVANTAGEOUS TO THE ALLIES"

I do not believe that accurately reflects what happened under those circumstances.

I will repeat, I want to investigate what really happened.

I suspect that I will find that the Japanese early air victories had everything to do with superior numbers and surprise over airfields - not superior pilots per say when engaged on equal numeric terms.

If my assumption is accurate - then Japanese pilots start with too much exp. If my assumption is inaccurate and the Japanese enjoyed no such superior numbers, then everything is fine.

Hi, I think all the pilots are over rated. I think a 70 should be a really great pilot with 40-50 your normal pre combat but trained pilot.

The sky is falling...Mogami and I agree on something![:D]
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by mdiehl »

I sort of agree but only with the caveat that none of the IJN pre- US/UK entrada disposes them to have greater EXP since their experience in China strikes me as either irrelevant or counterproductive. That would also apply to RAF pilots committed to the PTO. New theater. New problems.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Berkut »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I sort of agree but only with the caveat that none of the IJN pre- US/UK entrada disposes them to have greater EXP since their experience in China strikes me as either irrelevant or counterproductive. That would also apply to RAF pilots committed to the PTO. New theater. New problems.

I don't think the experience is counter-productive - certainly *any* combat experience is better than noe. It might not be as productive as one would think, however.

The problem is that later in the war, when both sides started committing relatively poorly trained pilots to the campaign, is that one of the problems was not just lack of combat experience, it was lack of even flight time!

And this was a problem on the US side as well as the Japanese, although not nearly as extreme. The US was cranking out pilots at a prodigious rate.

Of course, the relatively low operatinal losses of the game would tend to mask much of the danger that low flight time pilots were exposed to - just losses from accidents and such would be very high for new pilots.

This kind of ties into the overall much higher tempo of air operations in WitP overall.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by mdiehl »

The problem is that later in the war, when both sides started committing relatively poorly trained pilots to the campaign, is that one of the problems was not just lack of combat experience, it was lack of even flight time!


That is incorrect though. Late in the war the Allies were not committing poorly trained pilots to the engagement. Indeed, while pre-war Allied training was very good (in the USN/USMC) and adequate (USAAF), training programs intensified as the war progress, producing both greater numbers of pilots and those with more intensive and realistic combat training. These included flying combat exercises against friendly a.c. of type, flying combat exercises against other branch services, and in the USN case, an advanced fighter school (similar to modern Top Gun). During the interval from 1942-1944, flying time in training increased. By 1944 the US had so many very well trained pilots that pilot training programs were being scaled back.

As to whether or not "any combat experience is better than none at all." Gee it sure sounds appealing to "common sense." But whether it is universally true is open to debate. Many dicta of common sense turn out to be baseless when explored in detail.

For example I note that the most intensely trained units in the USAAF (Tuskeegee airmen) were immediately successful and superior to the veteran German pilots that they faced. As with many of the ?? aspects of this game, where and how the EXP index is derived is a black box. It does not seem closely tied to anything in particular in the real world.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Demosthenes »

I don't think the experience is counter-productive - certainly *any* combat experience is better than noe. It might not be as productive as one would think, however.

As to whether or not "any combat experience is better than none at all." Gee it sure sounds appealing to "common sense." But whether it is universally true is open to debate. Many dicta of common sense turn out to be baseless when explored in detail.

One example of experience is not always a good teacher may be whitnessed by Italy's air campaign in the Spanish Civil War. Their Pilots learned the wrong lessons about dogfighting from their collective "combat experience" and they became a serious hinderance to The Regia Aeronautica developing more modern hight performance monoplanes instead of the tried and trusted CR32 - CR42 biplanes of the 1930s.
Had this pilots interference and input on aircraft designs not occured (all based on very recent combat experience) Macchi could have had it's excellent MC202 in production by 1940 instead of late 1941.

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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by mogami »

Hi, Didn't we have this debate in Jan 05 or has it been since version 1.00
At one point we used Eric Shiller (sic) who flew with AVG and USAAF and said USAAF other then AVG didn't figure out how to fight Japanese till 43. (He used heavy loss among P-38 as example because P-38 was clearly better then any Japanese aircraft encountered and yet suffered heavy loss before tactics were changed.) Of course this is only USAAF and not USN.
And I have a problem with him because he insisted AVG fought A6M2.
(what happened was USAAF heard about A6M2 then battles over PI saw P-40 versus A6M2. AVG deploys Rangoon and has learned to ID older Japanese aircraft but never seen A6M2. AVG encounters Oscar and it is something they've not seen so the Oscar becomes the A6M2 "Zero" Even USN had problems with A6M2 as late as Coral Sea they were still thinking IJN was flying ME-109 (After action report for Coral Sea claims several 109's shot down)

In Any event the problem was A6M2 was more effective before Allied pilots changed tactics.
The bonus is not the A6M2 getting worse but Allies getting better. Perhaps along with AVG (or instead of) USN should be immune. Don't know because there are not enough examples before bonus expires whether or not it should apply. Allied players know in advance it exists so they should incorperate this knowledge into their planning.

And Ron S. approved of bonus when it was first added. (I was against it)
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Demosthenes »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Didn't we have this debate in Jan 05 or has it been since version 1.00
At one point we used Eric Shiller (sic) who flew with AVG and USAAF and said USAAF other then AVG didn't figure out how to fight Japanese till 43. (He used heavy loss among P-38 as example because P-38 was clearly better then any Japanese aircraft encountered and yet suffered heavy loss before tactics were changed.) Of course this is only USAAF and not USN.
And I have a problem with him because he insisted AVG fought A6M2.
(what happened was USAAF heard about A6M2 then battles over PI saw P-40 versus A6M2. AVG deploys Rangoon and has learned to ID older Japanese aircraft but never seen A6M2. AVG encounters Oscar and it is something they've not seen so the Oscar becomes the A6M2 "Zero" Even USN had problems with A6M2 as late as Coral Sea they were still thinking IJN was flying ME-109 (After action report for Coral Sea claims several 109's shot down)
In Any event the problem was A6M2 was more effective before Allied pilots changed tactics.
The bonus is not the A6M2 getting worse but Allies getting better. Perhaps along with AVG (or instead of) USN should be immune. Don't know because there are not enough examples before bonus expires whether or not it should apply. Allied players know in advance it exists so they should incorperate this knowledge into their planning.

And Ron S. approved of bonus when it was first added.


When it was first added? I was told it was with us from the beginning?

Side bar: I suspect that those "Japanese Messerschmitts" may have actually been pre-production KI-61 Tonys. Would make an interesting research project.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by mogami »

Hi, It was added before release but after test results were posted. I think more likely the 109 were early Judy's used for recon.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Ron Saueracker »

And Ron S. approved of bonus when it was first added.

I supported the Zero bonus?[X(] I think not. I'm not any sort of air combat afficianado so I don't make definitive calls like that. The air combat model was/is a mystery so I pretty much just made comments about how it felt in general. I'm a naval guy primarily and critic of obvious design gaffs like the land combat model. I actually said I would not become involved with a MedWar game unless some design issues were addressed. I obviously passed on it. I believe I was one of the few who thought it incapable and said so. Guess I'm not a team guy.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by mogami »

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

And prior to 12/7/41 no Allied pilot faced the vaunted Zero either.

What is your point?

Europeon dogfights were not slash and run fights. They were furballs. Alot of pilots that tried to furball with Zeros got ripped apart.

Fact: The Zero scared the heck out of Allied pilots in the early part of the war. Until they learned what not to do against it.

So the bonus is there to simulate the "shock" of the Zero turning inside of the allied pilots every time. "


Ron S. replied

"I'm OK with this and believe the AVG should be subject to it as well if they engage Zeros. We need someway to simulate this Zero Menace early war. "
1-1-05

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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

And prior to 12/7/41 no Allied pilot faced the vaunted Zero either.

What is your point?

Europeon dogfights were not slash and run fights. They were furballs. Alot of pilots that tried to furball with Zeros got ripped apart.

Fact: The Zero scared the heck out of Allied pilots in the early part of the war. Until they learned what not to do against it.

So the bonus is there to simulate the "shock" of the Zero turning inside of the allied pilots every time. "


Ron S. replied

"I'm OK with this and believe the AVG should be subject to it as well if they engage Zeros. We need someway to simulate this Zero Menace early war. "
1-1-05


Well, look at the date here. Way past the games release. I was correcting your statement that I supported the zero bonus during development. I have no real opinion other than someway to simulate the myriad of advantages the Japanese pilots enjoyed at the start of the war. I don't subscribe to the obvious AVG bias in the design which is what this discussion was about.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by ChezDaJez »

As to "superior Japanese doctrine." At some time you have to ask yourself this: "If the Zero was better than the Allied aircraft, and the Japanese pilots were substantially more experienced in ways that matter, and if the Japanese pilots had as you allege superior doctrine or tactics, why did inferior USN pilots in inferior USN planes flying inferior USN doctrine and tactics consistently beat the Zero or at least fight it to a draw?"

We've debated the relative merits of the Zero vs Wildcat ad nauseum. When compared to the Wildcat, the Zero was the better fighter for air combat maneuvering. The majority of US Wildcat pilots who engaged the Zero at Coral Sea and Midway all stated that the Zero was by far the better perfoming aircraft. The only advantage the Wildcat had over the Zero in this regard was a faster dive speed. One on one, the Zero was able to best any early war opponent. That is because they Japanese were dictating the terms of the fight. It doesn't matter how much firepower your aircraft has if it's unable to put those weapons on the target. It's a poor weapons system when its best advantage is to dive away from combat. Put it this way, one on one, which fighter will achieve a kill position more often?

But obviously there is more to air-air combat than just the attributes of any one aircraft.

The Japanese did not have an effective tactical fighter doctrine. It was quite inferior to that of the US, especially in the latter half of 1942. Japanese pilots tended to operate by the "lone wolf" principle. Their fighter formations were often described as a "gaggle" with no apparent organization. Once combat was joined, Japanese pilots tended to operate individually. This wasn't done as a result of any comprehensive tactics but was more inline with the Bushido or Samurai spirit. It is ironic that the Japanese emphasized one on one combat tactics also deemphasized individual successes. It was the early superiority of their Zero, the lack of knowledge of US pilots in combatting it and the inpreparedness of the US that allowed for its successes.

But it wasn't the attributes of the Wildcat itself that spelled the demise of the Zero. It was the refinement of US group tactics. US pilots had it drummed into them that if they wanted to survive, they had to use mutually supporting tactics. But in early 1942, US forces were still operating under their flawed peacetime fighter doctrine that emphasized classic dogfight tactics. That doctrine failed to take into account the relative advantages and disadvantages of the Wildcat against a particular opponent. But they learned rather quickly that fighting to Zero on its terms would result in higher losses regardless of the tactics used. Coral Sea and Midway showed that the Zero's could be neutralized through mutually supporting tatics. And those tactics were still evolving. As it was they barely held their own. And if it hadn't been for the robustness of the Wildcat and the fragility of the Zero, the loss rate would have been considerably higher.

The US tactical doctrine as evolved following the Battle of Midway was simple. The first and foremost item was the dictum "Do not engage in a turning fight with a Zero." The second, and probably most effective, was to always fight in mutually supporting pairs. The third, less effective (but very important to survival), was to know when to dive away and run. People like Thatch developed defensive tactics for survival, not for any increase in mission effectiveness. That his tactic, and others, also provided a means for gaining a very transient advantage enabling a snapshot at the attacker was a bonus. One that they used to great effect. And it helped that the Wildcat had a sloped cowling, allowing for longer visual contact in the deflection shot.

When all was said and done, it was the dedication of the pilots and the evolution of their tactical doctrine that allowed US pilots to survive the early battles and begin dealing crippling losses to the enemy as the year wore on.
It's not "statistically trivial" IMO. IN face to face encounters between the F4F and the A6M the F4F consistently won or achieved a draw. These include Coral Sea, Midway VMF, Midway USN, and 4 months of consistent air combat over Guadalcanal. The only clear cut victory was at Wake in Dec 1941. In light of the VMF F4Fs victory at Midway, I'd say that Wake and Midway VMF come out as a wash.

I've covered in some detail reasons why the USN did quite well. Better training at deflection shooting and better tactical doctrine being a big part of that. My suggestion all along has been that the flaws in the A2A model affects the game strategically because it makes risking Allied CVs against comparable numbers of Japanese CVs a very inadvisable idea. That is why I have suggested that part of the deal is to eliminate the Zero bonus.

From a result oriented POV you might strike a balance between the mystic cult of japanese superiority and the historical data by (a) leaving the ZB in, and (b) increasing the F4F EXP levels by 20 points across the board, (b2) put in a "Wildcat bonus" that has the net effect of reducing Wildcat vs A6M losses to about 1:1.

Now, if you want to impose the "ZB" because of results of RAF, USAAF pilots vs Japanese ones, I'd want to know what the historical kill ratios were of these aircraft. I'd also want to know why any early Japanese success are presumed a consequence of the mystic invincibility of the Zero rather than, say, the fact that most Allied a/c in Malaya, the PI, Indonesia, and for the first couple months at Port Moresby, were operating on a logistical shoestring from crummy airbases against a numerically superior foe that had the strategic initiative.

For ex many of the worst Allied army pilot defeats occurred because of "the Bounce" so to speak. At Darwin, for example, most of the P40s were shot down taking off from the airfield. I submit that Chinese pilots in Polikarpovs could have achieved the same result at Darwin had the Allied pilots been caught with their planes on the runway.

Your use of mid-late 1942 statistics to justify the removal of the ZB is flawed. There is no basis for comparison vis a vis the ZB. Now whether the ZB is removed or not, I really don't care so long as the total WitP OOB is also adjusted to reflect the true historical picture. And that would certainly have a far greater negative impact on the allied forces than the Japanese. For instance, VF-6 Wildcats should have their armor rating removed and durability dropped due to no self-sealing tanks. These weren't added until late January 42. VF-6 should also have their speed and alitiude ratings reduced due to the fact that their aircraft had P&W R-1830-96 engines with a single stage, dual speed supercharger instead of the P&W R-1830-86 dual stage, dual speed supercharger. VF-2 should also have the F2A's durability reduced due to the lack of self-sealing tanks. They didn't begin transition to the F4F-3 until late January. VF-3 on Saratoga was the first to receive F4F-3 with these changes. I can go on and on. How nit-picky do you want to get?

You state that the USN carriers should be able to go one on one against a Japanese fleet CV in 1941 and early 42 yet you have no data to justify your opinion. On the other hand, there is at least one instance where the relative performance of the USS Enterprise and its airwing can be compared against land based Claudes and Nells and it comes up sorely lacking. This is the Marshall Islands raid on 1 February 1942, specifically the attack on Taroa. Wildcats managed to surprise 2 Claudes who were not aware of the attack but succeeded in only shooting down only 1 and damaging the other. 6 other Claudes managed to get airborne while being strafed by the Wildcats and engaged the SBDs. The SBDs shot down 2 Claudes but the Claudes shot down one Wildcat. 5 SBDs were lost. So much for the the Wildcats stellar performance. It should be noted that many VF-6 Wildcats only had installed seat armor in the days prior to the raid.

An even more important and potentially catastrophic event occurred a little while later. 5 Nells attacked the Enterprise. They were not intercepted before or after releasing their bombs. No hits were obtained but one bomb fell close enough to kill one sailor, injure 7 others and start a gasoline fire. One Nell, after releasing its bombs, pulled up sharply and attempted to dive into the deck of the Enterprise. It just missed but its wing cut a SBD in half on the flight deck.

Shortly thereafter 2 other Nells attacked, again dropping their bombs before interception. AA gunners managed to damage one of the Nells and the other was shot done by the CAP as they retired.

In addition Japanese planes damaged the Chester with a bomb and convinced her to suspend her bombardment and retire.

Not only was the VF-6's performance in the attack and on CAP of VF-6 less than stellar, the AA gunnery was also ineffective. Halsey's After Action Report specifically states "The inability of the 5" AA battery to knock down the formation of enemy twin-engine bombers ... is a matter of grave concern. ... AA Gunnery Practices [should] be scheduled when opportunity offers, with ship steaming at not less than 25 knots. If adequate safeguards can be introduced, ship should be required to make radical changes of course."

And this is against much inferior Claudes and Nells. I can only imagine what the result would have been had the Akagi or Kaga been in the vicinity.

Even at Coral Sea, the effectiveness of Lexington's AA fire was labeled by her CO as only "partially effective." We did see on 5/7/42 what 1 US CV could do to a IJN CVL but that is hardly representative, is it? Especially considering that 1/3 of Shoho's fighters were A5M Claudes and the 8 Zeros onboard were only temporary and had not operated from a carrier before..

But let's look at the next day's action. Here you have 2 US CVs facing off against 2 IJN CVs. We know the result. Lexington sunk, Yorktown moderately damaged. Shokaku badly damaged but Zuikaku unscathed. Both airgroups were decimated, Yorktown having only 4 operational fighters left at the end of the battle.

Only at Midway, do we see a decisive result and it can be argued that the result was as much due to Japanese poor tactical use of her air forces and lack of coordination as to the skill of the US airmen. There was also a large measure of "luck" involved, as there is in any battle.

Again, what is the basis for your opinion that the US would, more often than not, win a CV vs CV battle early in the war? Lundstrom and Frank certainly won't help you here. The fact remains that the historical record doesn't support the outcome of such an action. If anything, it presents the opposite potentiality.

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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Anyway, there are worse things than the Zero bonus. Given the complexity of the A2A model (or complete lack of it!) nobody aside from the devs know how the model works and how the various ratings interact. Seeing that it is a short lived temporal thing I can live with it. Given that this can be removed using the editor and remodelled using experience tweaks it is by no means a critical issue.

Now, the obviously overpowered uber CAP model, unwarranted strike coordination bonus for Japan/penalty for Allies and no CAP penalty for Japan (lack of fighter direction) are things that I know need to be fixed. These are obviously incorrect yet are hardcoded into the program.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by mogami »

Hi, I don't like the term "Uber CAP" it implies that only fighters on CAP have the effect.
The effect is all fighters that survive combat with escorts attack bombers so in this CAP is correct but if the strikes are escorted by more fighters then CAP then the "Uber" escort wipes out the CAP resulting in all bombers getting in unharmed. The correct title should be "Uber effect of having larger number of fighters in A2A combat"
Since the IJN has more CV early in war they benifit from it more often. But it exists in battles between landbased units as well.
The best cure would be making it so that as a fighter made an attack it was withdrawn from combat. It could make a "save" and be allowed to make another but each attack would make a save less likely. And the starting roll would be around 33percent chance of 2nd attack.
Or even have intercepters decide escort or bomber before attacking. CAP would have to engage escorts with left overs being allowed to attack bombers.
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by mogami »

Hi Sept 42 Allied Uber CAP in action (CV set to 60 percent CAP 40 percent escort)
I'll post the actual numbers once I get the turn back.
Since the Allied TF have radar and had no strikes to escort more then 60 percent of fighters flew CAP
5xCV with 36 each plus 1 with 30 equal 210 fighters. only 126 should have been on CAP
only 36 Fulmars should have been on CAP. (Hurray for radar and good TF commanders)


Day Air attack on TF at 55,98

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 28
G4M1 Betty x 16

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 60
F4F-4 Wildcat x 204

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 28 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 16 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar: 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 10 destroyed, 19 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 55,98

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 81
A6M3 Zero x 40
Ki-21 Sally x 11

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 59
F4F-4 Wildcat x 194

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 47 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 29 destroyed
Ki-21 Sally: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar: 42 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 135 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Indomitable
CV Illustrious
CLAA Capetown

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 55,98

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12
A6M3 Zero x 6
Ki-21 Sally x 6

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 17
F4F-4 Wildcat x 59

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 4 destroyed
Ki-21 Sally: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 11 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 55,98

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 6

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 12
F4F-4 Wildcat x 48

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar: 1 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Lanchow , at 45,25

Japanese aircraft
Ki-46-II Dinah x 1

No Japanese losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 55,98

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 12
G4M1 Betty x 13

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 8
F4F-4 Wildcat x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 12 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar: 5 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 14 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 55,98

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 38
A6M3 Zero x 12
Ki-21 Sally x 9

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 8
F4F-4 Wildcat x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar: 5 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 19 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Indomitable
CV Illustrious
CV Formidable

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 55,98

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 4

Allied aircraft
Fulmar x 3
F4F-4 Wildcat x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Indomitable

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
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RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

Post by mdiehl »

Fact: The Zero scared the heck out of Allied pilots in the early part of the war. Until they learned what not to do against it.


Pure fabricated fiction. Fact is, the Zero did not scare the heck out of Allied pilots and indeed they were not scared ENOUGH. Had the Allied pilots been "scared of" the Zero they would not have been remotely as willing to contest the Zero. In some engagements, ignorance of the Zero's low speed performance characteristics led to the Allies accepting battle where it should have been refused. The Darwin Raid is a classic example. With short warning the P40s scrambled, some caught taking of and others merely caught accelerating but at low speed and in the (a) best part of the Zeke's envelope and (b) worst part of the P40 envelope. Had the Allied pilots any knowledge at all of the Zero's reputation of which to be scared, they would have refused combat in such obvious disadvantaged circumstances.

Of course, Zero pilots had every reason to be scared of Allied a/c and they suffered for not using proper caution. Zooming too close to an Allied fighter being a big cause of Zero pilots' demise.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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