Solomon Islands Map

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
As for other changes that involve changing the coastal and'or river/lake bitmaps, I'll accept revisions once a month - let's say on the 15th of each month. It is a pain to do these.

I'll keep them in a list then, that I'll give you once per month.

Thanks.

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

It would not be good for the game to merge all of them in a single Japanese Mandate, so maybe it is better to ignore the Mandates, and just keep the countries we have ?

All the Pacific games I have ever known treat each island group as its own entity (separating the Western and Eastern Carolines, for example). It would make no sense treating them as one huge territory. I believe there were separate mandates for each, anyway, as each could be expected to mature towards independence at different speeds.

Surely the critical thing is to define territories by their administrative boundaries? That, after all, is what conquest represents.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

ORIGINAL: Froonp

It would not be good for the game to merge all of them in a single Japanese Mandate, so maybe it is better to ignore the Mandates, and just keep the countries we have ?

All the Pacific games I have ever known treat each island group as its own entity (separating the Western and Eastern Carolines, for example). It would make no sense treating them as one huge territory. I believe there were separate mandates for each, anyway, as each could be expected to mature towards independence at different speeds.

Surely the critical thing is to define territories by their administrative boundaries? That, after all, is what conquest represents.

Not necessarily.

Just because a group of islands was administered as a single entity, that does not mean they could not be conquered separately. A grand scale example of this is that the Commonwealth was composed of 6 member nations (in WIF terms), each of which can be conquered separately.

What is important here is how the rules interact with the definition of 'territory'. In particular, how the conquest rules apply. The goal is to have conquest of a territory correspond to military control of the territory's hexes. If a territory is defined too broadly, then conquest becomes unrealistically difficult. The crucial fact here is that 'conquering' a territoy (in game terms) has a direct effect on who controls its hexes.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
What is important here is how the rules interact with the definition of 'territory'. In particular, how the conquest rules apply. The goal is to have conquest of a territory correspond to military control of the territory's hexes. If a territory is defined too broadly, then conquest becomes unrealistically difficult. The crucial fact here is that 'conquering' a territoy (in game terms) has a direct effect on who controls its hexes.

We have 2 places left in our countries list. #252 and #253 are free.
We could create the Territory of New Guinea, containing the northeast part of Papua, with 2 minor ports, Lae and Wewak.
This would render the conquest of the Papua more historical, as the Japanese controlled the northeast, exactly what correspond to the Territory of New Guinea. This would allow the Japanese to do the historical conquest they did of the northern half of Papua.

Edit : We would leave New Ireland, New Britain and the Admiralty Islands alone.

[Norman42]

Perhaps have New Guinea be one territory and New Britain/New Ireland/Admiralty Isles be another (Call it Bismarck Archipelago perhaps)

That way there is some differentiation of these mandates without the requirement of excessive Japanese forces to capture them.

Japan would need to occupy Rabaul to 'conquest' the NB/NI/AI territory(the crucial conquest for Japan), and Wewak and Lae to 'conquest' the New Guinea Territory. Conquest of the Papua Territory would therefore require the overland attack on Port Moresby, giving Japan the incentive that they had historically to attack southwards across the mountains(the Kokoda Trail failure), or to control the Coral Sea for a naval attack (which they also historically failed in the Battle of the Coral Sea).

This all would allow the realism of the mandates to be felt, while not excessively punishing the Japanese capabilities to take these places.

[marcuswatney]

ORIGINAL: Norman42

Perhaps have New Guinea be one territory and New Britain/New Ireland/Admiralty Isles be another (Call it Bismarck Archipelago perhaps)

That way there is some differentiation of these mandates without the requirement of excessive Japanese forces to capture them.

Japan would need to occupy Rabaul to 'conquest' the NB/NI/AI territory(the crucial conquest for Japan), and Wewak and Lae to 'conquest' the New Guinea Territory. Conquest of the Papua Territory would therefore require the overland attack on Port Moresby, giving Japan the incentive that they had historically to attack southwards across the mountains(the Kokoda Trail failure), or to control the Coral Sea for a naval attack (which they also historically failed in the Battle of the Coral Sea).

This all would allow the realism of the mandates to be felt, while not excessively punishing the Japanese capabilities to take these places.

I could support this compromise if Bougainville were added to the Bismarck Archipelago. Even today, Bougainville is a part of Papua New Guinea not the Solomons.

My great concern has always been that it shouldn't be necessary to laboriously invade every poxy pair of islands (like the Admiralty Islands) fearing that if you don't the opponent will pick them up free towards the end of the game because they are still technically controlled by him.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Norman42

Perhaps have New Guinea be one territory and New Britain/New Ireland/Admiralty Isles be another (Call it Bismarck Archipelago perhaps)

That way there is some differentiation of these mandates without the requirement of excessive Japanese forces to capture them.

Japan would need to occupy Rabaul to 'conquest' the NB/NI/AI territory(the crucial conquest for Japan), and Wewak and Lae to 'conquest' the New Guinea Territory. Conquest of the Papua Territory would therefore require the overland attack on Port Moresby, giving Japan the incentive that they had historically to attack southwards across the mountains(the Kokoda Trail failure), or to control the Coral Sea for a naval attack (which they also historically failed in the Battle of the Coral Sea).

This all would allow the realism of the mandates to be felt, while not excessively punishing the Japanese capabilities to take these places.

I think that this is a brilliant idea.
Also, we would go from 4 countries (Admiralty Islands, New Ireland, New Britain, Papua) to 3 (Territory of New Guinea, Papua, Bismarck Archipelago), disminishing the number of countries in the game [:D].
Reference : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismarck_archipelago

[Froonp]

I could support this compromise if Bougainville were added to the Bismarck Archipelago. Even today, Bougainville is a part of Papua New Guinea not the Solomons.

Sure, it would be.

[Norman42]

I could support this compromise if Bougainville were added to the Bismarck Archipelago.

 
Yes, good catch. I forgot to add that isle in my post.

[marcuswatney]

Wow!  A consensus!  What a satisfying conclusion to an interesting debate.

[marcuswatney]

Next Business:

First, can we please have a recent version of the Post 1 map (November 2006).

Things have no doubt moved on since those days, but an alarming number of islands then were allocated clear terrain for no reason that I can see. The 1985 WiF map has every South Pacific island as jungle. Can we agree at the outset that the default terrain for all islands in the South Pacific should be jungle?

Which leads me on to...

ORIGINAL: Norman42
Agreed, Bougainville south hex should be Jungle. There were mountains on the island, but the important parts militarily (the airfields) were on the lowland coastal areas that were covered in jungle. Splitting the isle into 1mtn and 1jng hex would show this nicely I think.

Certain islands or parts of islands were better suited to airfields than others. One of my military maps shows the following number of airbases (southeast to northwest):

Guadalcanal: one
Russell Islands: two
New Georgia: two
Kolombangara: one
Shortlands: one (seaplane only)
Bougainville: six
Buka: one

I appreciate that Bougainville had jungle, but the island was clearly very suitable for airbases. So the reason I proposed that southern Bougainville be clear was to make it an attractive site for airbases, so that players will unconsciously mirror reality.

For example, it is absolutely right that Kavieng (northwestern tip of New Ireland) is shown as a clear hex as at present, because this was a major Japanese airbase that, like Rabaul, survived under blockade until the end of the war.

[Norman42]

I appreciate that Bougainville had jungle, but the island was clearly very suitable for airbases. So the reason I proposed that southern Bougainville be clear was to make it an attractive site for airbases, so that players will unconsciously mirror reality.

Jungle and Clear are both equally suitable for airbases; they can both base 1 aircraft in WiF.

Often the reason that an island was chosen for airbase suitability was nothing other then it had some small *flat* expanse. Henderson Field on Guadalcanal was just such a case as it was one of the few flat pieces of land in the entire Solomons. Guadalcanal as a whole was very rough, jungle covered and unappealing. However that one flat piece of north coast was what made it the lynchpin of the Solomons.

As far as being attractive for airbases, Jungle is actually superior (oddly) to Clear, since you are better protected vs land attack and air strikes.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Wow!  A consensus!  What a satisfying conclusion to an interesting debate.

Only if Steve agrees to the proposal.

The proposal (from Norman42) is :

Create the "Territory of New Guinea" Territory and New Britain / New Ireland / Admiralty Islands & Bougainville become a new Territory called "Bismarck Archipelago". "Papua" Territory stays the same (less the hexes that become Territory of New Guinea.

Result :
- 3 Territories where originaly there were 4.
- More historical conquest of the Bismarck Archipelago. Rabaul stays the same, gives more land.
- More historical incencitive for Japan to conquer Lae & Wewak to have Territory of New Guinea.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Wow!  A consensus!  What a satisfying conclusion to an interesting debate.

Only if Steve agrees to the proposal.

The proposal (from Norman42) is :

Create the "Territory of New Guinea" Territory and New Britain / New Ireland / Admiralty Islands & Bougainville become a new Territory called "Bismarck Archipelago". "Papua" Territory stays the same (less the hexes that become Territory of New Guinea.

Result :
- 3 Territories where originaly there were 4.
- More historical conquest of the Bismarck Archipelago. Rabaul stays the same, gives more land.
- More historical incencitive for Japan to conquer Lae & Wewak to have Territory of New Guinea.

Let it sit for a day or two and see if there are any objections from other forum readers. I have none.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

The original 4 posts for this thread - with the map as of today. The above discussion would mainly change the country/territory boundaries.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Close up of Papua - New Guinea

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Close up of the eastern part of 1st post in series.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

4th and last in series. An extreme closeup of the area most recently under discussion above.

[brian brian]

my head is spinning trying to figure out which territory would fall from taking which port. maybe I play it wrong with a ghost of WiF past, but if you take every port in a sea zone, you get all the hexes, except the border hexes, unless you take all the ports in both zones. Territories don't have capitals and this is the only way to conquer them. ???

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

my head is spinning trying to figure out which territory would fall from taking which port. maybe I play it wrong with a ghost of WiF past, but if you take every port in a sea zone, you get all the hexes, except the border hexes, unless you take all the ports in both zones. Territories don't have capitals and this is the only way to conquer them. ???

Conquest isn't that hard.