Looking for trouble with AFB --> BOUNCE

[ChezDaJez]

Is it possible if altitude is not a determinant in air combat as per above and japanese in these examples are always sweeping one of the biggest allied airbases in India that the reason for the bounce almost always being allied IS actually allied radar giving the surprise/bounce/tactical advantage to the allies in this case over this base.

I believe you are correct, Andy. Radar gives the allied defender a great advantage in determining the bounce. Still shouldn't happen to aircraft flying too high to be intercepted.

I don't think the game checks altitude when determining the bounce and it should just to determine if it is possible..

Check

[Bodhi]

I think it's best to treat any of the little messages that flash by during the combat replay with a sumo's wrestler's handful of salt. YMMV. [;)]

[ChezDaJez]

I think it's best to treat any of the little messages that flash by during the combat replay with a sumo's wrestler's handful of salt. YMMV.

That's why I don't watch the combat replays... I have little faith in them. I wish we could select which replays to watch, for example I would like to watch air strikes against naval ships and the land combat just to get an ID on the opposing forces. Don't really care about air combat replays though.

Chez

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: castor troy

...

"You are just getting wipped and you haven't figured out how he's doing it." [:D][:D]

You are joking aren´t you?

No I´m not getting wiped.

Then WTF are you complaining and raving like a Madd Man for???

Because you don't like to see the text message come up????

Now I've heard it all -

mmm, you don´t get it.... [8|] Either my English isn´t clear to you or it´s your brain. Is there a switch that makes me ignoring you? [:o]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Is it possible if altitude is not a determinant in air combat as per above and japanese in these examples are always sweeping one of the biggest allied airbases in India that the reason for the bounce almost always being allied IS actually allied radar giving the surprise/bounce/tactical advantage to the allies in this case over this base.

I believe you are correct, Andy. Radar gives the allied defender a great advantage in determining the bounce. Still shouldn't happen to aircraft flying too high to be intercepted.

I don't think the game checks altitude when determining the bounce and it should just to determine if it is possible..

Check

Yes, radar should give the defender an advantage. As Chez said, radar can´t boost planes up to a height that they can´t go. If altitude doesn´t matter, then why shouldn´t I cry about, it´s obviously a fault (if it really doesn´t matter).

No matter if radar on the defenders side or if alt doesn´t matter, there has to be a time in such an air combat (200 planes involved) where the bounce has to change or disappear.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: castor troy

...

"You are just getting wipped and you haven't figured out how he's doing it." [:D][:D]

You are joking aren´t you?

No I´m not getting wiped.

Then WTF are you complaining and raving like a Madd Man for???

Because you don't like to see the text message come up????

Now I've heard it all -

mmm, you don´t get it.... [8|] Either my English isn´t clear to you or it´s your brain. Is there a switch that makes me ignoring you? [:o]

If you would post calmly - instead of full of anger and looking to pick a fight, posting little guys vomiting (Previous related thread) on 'AFBs' who have tried to answer your questions in the past - I would never have bothered to rattle your cage to begin with, and you are fair game to respond to.

In the process of this thread you have found out that "In Air Combat - Altitude Does Not Matter"... that should answer your question. That is how the game works.

If you would have posted clearly that your complaint was: "Although I win the air battles everywhere - My opponent always goes first when I attack Dacca" - It would have been a lot clearer what was going on, Radar sees you coming and they are waiting for you. But when you type in anger, your point gets lost.

Have a nice day.

[Miller]

I set the A2A combat animation speed to 0.1 so I do not have time to view the messages......and I usually skip the larger battles altogether.

When you consider some of the quirks in this game the issue being debated is not worth worrying about.

[castor troy]

Got the reverse attack this turn. Prz attacked me over Akyab. Result of bounces was more like I would expect it. Bombers came in with escort. Surprisingly the first bounce went to the Allied escort fighters (their height was 17k as the bombers came in all at 15k) --> my Cap was at 20k and 25k. So I would think I should have get the first bounce, but okay.

The bouncing esorts got some shots at my Cap then I saw this: xy daitai climbing --> bouncing xy squadron. This happened three or four times, then the surprise or alt factor (or whatever factor if alt doesn´t exist) was over and the messages weren´t "bounce" anymore but only yx daitai ENGAGES cx squadron and vice versa.

Now a thing that is important: if you watch the combat replay then you can see that the bounce is a big advantage in A2A as this results in attacks from BEHIND very often. So instead of just seeing x firing at y you see the bouncing x FIRING FROM BEHIND at y.

So the bounce is a real important factor it seems. In this attack again over 200 planes were involved and the bounce changed and after a couple of bounces the battle went on without one bouncing the other (as I think it should be).

Now why doesn´t that happen over that Allied base too where the Allied squadrons are bouncing for hours if you watch the whole combat replay. Only the radar factor??? [&:]

[Honda]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Is there a switch that makes me ignoring you? [:o]

Yes. It works for me anyway. This is the result:
This user is on your "block" list and the message has been blocked.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Honda

ORIGINAL: treespider

Perhaps you should consider that "Bounce" does not necessarily mean a positional height advantage...

Perhaps "Bounce" just means the side that was first able to get a position of advantage...

The most important thing to a fighter pilot is speed; the faster an aircraft is moving when he spots an enemy aircraft, the sooner he will be able to take the bounce and get to the Hun. If you have any advantage on him, keep it and use it. When attacking, plan to overshoot him if possible, hold fire until within range, then shoot and clobber him down to the last instant before breaking away. It's like sneaking up behind someone and hitting them with a baseball bat.

— Duane W. Beeson, P-51 pilot, 4th Fighter Group

The same thing happens with Wirraways. They to get the "free bounce". I belive the there's something like a freebee for allies. I think it wotks out better if Japs send in more squadrons. That way it would be better to have 2 daitais on sweep/50% CAP then one doing CAP and the other sweeping.
Oh, and I did have a KB Zero shot down by a Wirraway just a few days ago... Made me laugh with all my heart[:D]

And that Wirraway is now on display in the Australian war Memorial, Canberra.

[TheElf]

Castor,
You said the results still favor you and that your only complaint is that the Bounce goes in Prez's favor is this correct? What kind of losses are you having vs. Prez's Hurricanes?

I ask because there has long been a contention that the bounce message is reversed, and that when it LOOKS like your opponent is getting the bounce, in fact YOU are.

Michaelm, can you comment?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Castor,
You said the results still favor you and that your only complaint is that the Bounce goes in Prez's favor is this correct? What kind of losses are you having vs. Prez's Hurricanes?

I ask because there has long been a contention that the bounce message is reversed, and that when it LOOKS like your opponent is getting the bounce, in fact YOU are.

Michaelm, can you comment?

That is not what I´m seeing, not at all.

Here are the conditionas: Of course I don´t know it exactly but after months of fights over Burma and those bases in India I don´t think those British pilots are in a high exp. We should ask Prz but I think this goes under confident. When I think of the replacement pilot rate in Nik´s mod then there should be more green than veteran pilots flying on his side. Next point are the planes. First I used Navy Zeroes, now I got a couple of Tojo Sentais to use. My pilots are very high experienced ones.

My Zeroes shot down those Hurricanes in a rate up to 3 or 4:1 (not over Dacca where the mighty all time bounce is). The Tojo, even better plane than the Zero with more experienced pilots does even BETTER. I know those results weren´t historic and those kill rates are pretty much off, but please don´t start a discussion on that.

So I thought I could attack this base named Dacca where he puts up 50+ planes on CAP, as I knew my planes are achieving tremendous results. The results were kill ratios of 1,5:1. If I would have used Zeroes instead of Tojos the results would have been 1:2 because the Zero isn´t armored and less durable than the Tojo (makes a big difference in Nik 8.0).

Strange I thought, why are my fighters performing far better when they are escorting my bombers somewhere than on this sweep over Dacca. They should suffer more on escort I thought. I did the turn again and watched the combat replay more carefully. With the result that I saw the bounce of the British fighters for perhaps 70 times in this battle. I didn´t count it but it went on for more then 30 minutes, so...

There were also some US Warhawks available that had performed far better before and also did over Dacca (better pilots I think, better plane). So the less experienced British pilots on the bounce achieve results that are 3 or 4 times better than the results without the bounce! [X(][X(]. The Warhawks (there were just a few) were killers on the bounce as the bounce most times results in a "fire from behind" situation and with their high arm value their targets are toast when fired from behind. For me it doesn´t look like the bounce is reversed, not at all.

Now something about the reverse fight that happened. Prz sent in P38!!! (about 40) on escort of about 70 Mitchels, some Wellingtons and 50 B24. Oh shit I thought when the replay popped up. [X(] I had 60+ Tojos on Cap in the air. The fight starts: 23FG bounces a Tojo sentai (damn I thought, even if the US fighters are on escort OVER MY BASE they get the bounce) and came up behind my elite Tojos: boom, boom... two Tojos shot down from behind. This will go on I thought. THIS TIME I THOGHT WRONG. xc Tojo sentai climbs and BOUNCES 23 FG. [X(][X(][X(] Heck, what´s happening??? Tojo firing from behind at Lightning boom, boom, boom... three or four Lightnings shot down from behind with some otheres damaged. Next round, next Tojo sentai climbing and BOUNCES 23 FG... I had four sentais on CAP and all four got the bounce after the first was bounced by the the 23 FG. About 15-17 P38 and 3 Tojos were shot down (several others damaged) during the "bounce phase".

Then the fight went on! After all the fighters involved did one bounce the messages changed: yx Tojo sentai climbs, Tojo engages P38 boom, miss, boom, damaged, P38 engages Tojo, boom, damaged, boom, damaged,... In this phase the difference was obvious, not a single attack from behind. Kill rate nearly equal and together only a couple of planes lost.

After that my fighters went after the bombers and shot down 1 Wellington and a couple of Mitchels, damaging some B24.

So if people believe my words and I´m not day dreaming then you can see a huge difference between bounce and no bounce. And then you can see how important the bounce is and how strange it is when you watch the combat replay for hours seeing the bounce always on one side when you fight over a particular base (I don´t know what makes them bouncing always there, if it´s radar, well, I think radar should get more planes in the air into a better position if they are alerted early enough, but during an A2A combat where 200 planes are involved and the defender is severly outnumbered it´s strange for me that the bounce goes on and on and on.... until the fight is over.

If this bounce orgy is also happening over the carriers later on (perhaps people can have an eye on that) then it´s not surprising to me that there´s an Uber Cap as the bounce also plays in here. Of course this goes for early Jap death stars also if it happens there (but without a working air radar it perhaps isn´t the case here).

[pauk]

from my experience bounce can give you significant advantage.

I posted similar thread about bounce few months ago, but due to poor search engine i cant find it. Also noticed that even in early stage of the war Allied figthers geting bounce more often than my ac, and i was pretty sure that i had all required factors (exp advantage, leader advantage, altitude advantage) (and no, i'm not going to keep the record of the bouncing).

Of course, this could be only my imagination but that is my impression.

What i'm pretty sure that my fighters on CAP climbing to intercept enemy fightes (on the escorting bombers duty) although i'm sure that i have altitude advantage. Funny, eh?

[Sneer]

not funny Pauk
people spend to much time on Witp
that is problem
playing 2 pbems means you spend at least 1h per day
but in many cases more / add time for AAR and community talks
it means that WITP is a part of players life
so if people go on the edge of their possibilities and they seem to do their conceptual work right they want to see sth that is close to expected results
if there is flaw in design they get angry but not angry like on many other games they buy / play a week and forget about /
it is real anger
i know what i write about
and think that many players will agree on it
what to do with it ???
i don't know
probably stop playing
but yes it is not satisfactory answer

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Castor,
You said the results still favor you and that your only complaint is that the Bounce goes in Prez's favor is this correct? What kind of losses are you having vs. Prez's Hurricanes?

I ask because there has long been a contention that the bounce message is reversed, and that when it LOOKS like your opponent is getting the bounce, in fact YOU are.

Michaelm, can you comment?

That is not what I´m seeing, not at all.

Here are the conditionas: Of course I don´t know it exactly but after months of fights over Burma and those bases in India I don´t think those British pilots are in a high exp. We should ask Prz but I think this goes under confident. When I think of the replacement pilot rate in Nik´s mod then there should be more green than veteran pilots flying on his side. Next point are the planes. First I used Navy Zeroes, now I got a couple of Tojo Sentais to use. My pilots are very high experienced ones.

My Zeroes shot down those Hurricanes in a rate up to 3 or 4:1 (not over Dacca where the mighty all time bounce is). The Tojo, even better plane than the Zero with more experienced pilots does even BETTER. I know those results weren´t historic and those kill rates are pretty much off, but please don´t start a discussion on that.

So I thought I could attack this base named Dacca where he puts up 50+ planes on CAP, as I knew my planes are achieving tremendous results. The results were kill ratios of 1,5:1. If I would have used Zeroes instead of Tojos the results would have been 1:2 because the Zero isn´t armored and less durable than the Tojo (makes a big difference in Nik 8.0).

Strange I thought, why are my fighters performing far better when they are escorting my bombers somewhere than on this sweep over Dacca. They should suffer more on escort I thought. I did the turn again and watched the combat replay more carefully. With the result that I saw the bounce of the British fighters for perhaps 70 times in this battle. I didn´t count it but it went on for more then 30 minutes, so...

There were also some US Warhawks available that had performed far better before and also did over Dacca (better pilots I think, better plane). So the less experienced British pilots on the bounce achieve results that are 3 or 4 times better than the results without the bounce! [X(][X(]. The Warhawks (there were just a few) were killers on the bounce as the bounce most times results in a "fire from behind" situation and with their high arm value their targets are toast when fired from behind. For me it doesn´t look like the bounce is reversed, not at all.

Now something about the reverse fight that happened. Prz sent in P38!!! (about 40) on escort of about 70 Mitchels, some Wellingtons and 50 B24. Oh shit I thought when the replay popped up. [X(] I had 60+ Tojos on Cap in the air. The fight starts: 23FG bounces a Tojo sentai (damn I thought, even if the US fighters are on escort OVER MY BASE they get the bounce) and came up behind my elite Tojos: boom, boom... two Tojos shot down from behind. This will go on I thought. THIS TIME I THOGHT WRONG. xc Tojo sentai climbs and BOUNCES 23 FG. [X(][X(][X(] Heck, what´s happening??? Tojo firing from behind at Lightning boom, boom, boom... three or four Lightnings shot down from behind with some otheres damaged. Next round, next Tojo sentai climbing and BOUNCES 23 FG... I had four sentais on CAP and all four got the bounce after the first was bounced by the the 23 FG. About 15-17 P38 and 3 Tojos were shot down (several others damaged) during the "bounce phase".

Then the fight went on! After all the fighters involved did one bounce the messages changed: yx Tojo sentai climbs, Tojo engages P38 boom, miss, boom, damaged, P38 engages Tojo, boom, damaged, boom, damaged,... In this phase the difference was obvious, not a single attack from behind. Kill rate nearly equal and together only a couple of planes lost.

After that my fighters went after the bombers and shot down 1 Wellington and a couple of Mitchels, damaging some B24.

So if people believe my words and I´m not day dreaming then you can see a huge difference between bounce and no bounce. And then you can see how important the bounce is and how strange it is when you watch the combat replay for hours seeing the bounce always on one side when you fight over a particular base (I don´t know what makes them bouncing always there, if it´s radar, well, I think radar should get more planes in the air into a better position if they are alerted early enough, but during an A2A combat where 200 planes are involved and the defender is severly outnumbered it´s strange for me that the bounce goes on and on and on.... until the fight is over.

If this bounce orgy is also happening over the carriers later on (perhaps people can have an eye on that) then it´s not surprising to me that there´s an Uber Cap as the bounce also plays in here. Of course this goes for early Jap death stars also if it happens there (but without a working air radar it perhaps isn´t the case here).

Radar has an effect on detection level. Detection level is a primary factor in determining the bounce.

I loaded the stock scenario 15, and Dacca is loaded with LCUs at the start of the game. If your opponent has not moved any of the 10 or so ENG units with radar than your Tojos are Sweeping a base hex with no less than 10 radars which, likely, cummulatively raise your sweeps Detection level to a point where the CAP knows where they are well before they arrive and are ALWAYS in a position to qualify for the bounce.

I would ask Prez to confirm whether he has a lot of radars at Dacca, if he is willing to. If he confirms it then it is likely the reason you have such a hard time at Dacca. You might try hitting a known base hex without radar and see if the results are similar.

I'm no expert, but my experiences have shown the above to be true...

[pauk]

first of all i want to say that i know how you feel. I'm the one of the people who spend more than one hour per day on WiTP. And I know what are you talking about - already been there and if you ask me if i like it my answer will be NO. There are some issues in the game, i agree, and all those issues are more an more visible when more people reaching middle/late stage of the war:

- missing pilots, CVs won't launch strikes, PTs and radar issues (Jap LB radar is still not fixed... etc etc...

but, what i can do? last time i've got involved in debate (PTs) i couldn't prove anything - still think that Allied radar on PTs is over rated and no one offer valid counter argument.

But i'm not concerned about that - what makes me worried that we didn't have many answers of the real veterans... do they experienced such problems? how they are handling with such problems?

Currently we have only one AAR game in the late 44 - Pzbs... i'm very worried about that. One of the most knowgeable people here gave up from the game - Tom Hunter. Because he couldn't convince people that something isn't right with the naval combat engine.

I trust him - he is right. Once when you "discovers" the Wonderland of the WiTP you find limitations in the game. On the one side, it is understandable, no one program, code will ever make close enough to the human mind. But on the other hand, what we can do except stop playing?

if you hoped you will get an answer, well, you are mistake. These are just my thoughts...

ORIGINAL: Sneer

not funny Pauk
people spend to much time on Witp
that is problem
playing 2 pbems means you spend at least 1h per day
but in many cases more / add time for AAR and community talks
it means that WITP is a part of players life
so if people go on the edge of their possibilities and they seem to do their conceptual work right they want to see sth that is close to expected results
if there is flaw in design they get angry but not angry like on many other games they buy / play a week and forget about /
it is real anger
i know what i write about
and think that many players will agree on it
what to do with it ???
i don't know
probably stop playing
but yes it is not satisfactory answer

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: pauk
Once when you "discovers" the Wonderland of the WiTP you find limitations in the game. On the one side, it is understandable, no one program, code will ever make close enough to the human mind. But on the other hand, what we can do except stop playing?

I think it is always worthwhile posting anything you think is an anomoly, as long as it is based on a fair range of results, not just one incident (and I am not talking about this thread - that is just a general comment). I think that the more useful data posted, the more chance there is of the game being improved, whther that data comes from JFBs, AFBs, WFBs, ZFBs, XFBs or CFBs (OK, I made those last few up, except for CFB - Chocolate Fanboy - that is me).

Andrew

[pauk]

Andrew, i agree with you in - theory.

The problem with posting results (and potential bugs) that everyone starts to jumps on person who posted it finding counterarguments. The only person who succeded to convince the whole community about certain issue is Ron and his subs[:D][;)]

Much depends on how the people play the game, i agree, and results are various/different. While i consider myself as certified JFB i don't consider myself as whining person. I'm always trying to treat my forces as it was treated in RL - no sending them in the battle in traditional Russian or Chinese tactic in the waves without support (comrade Stalin/Mao Ze asking their HQs: how many soldiers we lost today? one hundred thousand? two hundred thousands? Wait the minute, doesn't matter, you will attack x target with another half of million soldiers[:D])

Why i'm posting this? Because i really think that my results are based in balanced and reasonable play and thus they are quite valid. I must mention Tom Hunter again and his famous thread about naval combat...

Don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining or anything - this is just my thoughts, still this is a best game i've ever played. Just think that isn't worth my time to be involved in next monster thread YES/NO/overated/unhistorical/blah,blah type.

[Ron Saueracker]

The point is based on the fact that it did not require a few years of after market release play to determine that alot of the models were whacked. It was obvious from alpha. The annoying thing is that we are still debating the obvious. This should and could have been addresed prior to release. I've alienated myself, accrued a foul reputation while others involved during development have spent their time sucking up, modding and bad mouthing guys like myself and are seen as WITP goldplaters. Frankly. it pisses me off.[;)] Oh well....[8|]

[Ron Saueracker]

Grumble, grumble, grumble...[8D]