Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post discussions and advice on TOAW scenario design here.

Moderators: ralphtricky, JAMiAM

User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15067
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
However my point is that none of the Prussian forces at Ligny were shattered. The centre gave way but was able to withdraw without harrassment.

I guarantee you that some of the forces at Ligny were shattered. And, for the last time, see the first post in this thread. Plenty of players fail to shatter the entire Prussian force.
Perhaps someone who's interested in simulating the situation historical commanders may have found themselves in.

I'll pass. Plenty of other Operational wargames on this period did as well.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15067
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Depending upon where the hex boundary is.

If you put it in the middle of the British position, that puts the French in the same hexes as the British. Obviously, one can't do that in TOAW.

Adjacent to them will do just fine. You're being ridiculus.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15067
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
That is to say, from the likes of those who read your own AAR and notice the gross deviations from the military realities of the period in question instead of just taking your word for it when you say it works fine.

Those "gross deviations" of course, only appear in your self-serving eyes. None of them stand up to examination.
That may well be -- but as it happens, you're the one defending the scenario. You seem to be getting our roles crossed up.

You're defending your false assertions.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by ColinWright »

Please don't say Seelow - I might hurt myself from laughing.


Considering you haven't even seen this scenario, that's a singularly inane remark.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
That is to say, from the likes of those who read your own AAR and notice the gross deviations from the military realities of the period in question instead of just taking your word for it when you say it works fine.

Those "gross deviations" of course, only appear in your self-serving eyes. None of them stand up to examination.
That may well be -- but as it happens, you're the one defending the scenario. You seem to be getting our roles crossed up.

You're defending your false assertions.

Okay. I'd like to see you defend two elements in this post. In what way are my eyes 'self-serving' and how are my assertions 'false'?

The fact of the matter is that you're doing what you typically do when you start losing an argument: begin resorting to insult instead. It's one of your more repulsive traits.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15067
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Please don't say Seelow - I might hurt myself from laughing.


Considering you haven't even seen this scenario, that's a singularly inane remark.

I can read threads. And I know that any Seelow scenario requires ship vs. ship and ship vs. convoy combat. And I know just how good (not) TOAW is at that.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15067
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Okay. I'd like to see you defend two elements in this post. In what way are my eyes 'self-serving'

You're chained to your theory about pre-20th Century scenarios. No matter what the true state of affairs may be, your observations will be twisted to fit that theory. It's your standard operating procedure.

Actually, in one of your earlier posts above, I had actually detected a fair assesment. But you then reverted to form.
and how are my assertions 'false'?

Have you provided any basis for them? No. Baseless = false. Now at least Ben supports his assertions with his observations from the AAR. Of course, as I've pointed out tirelessly, his observations have been consistently off.

I asked you specifically "what distortions?" in the last post. All I got was just another declaration that it was full of "gross deviations" without any specifics or evidence of those specifics.

Here's the reality: There isn't a single thing in that AAR that you can point at and say for certain a Napoleonic force couldn't have done it. The distances are too small and the scenario length too short.
The fact of the matter is that you're doing what you typically do when you start losing an argument: begin resorting to insult instead. It's one of your more repulsive traits.

As usual, you're a legend in you're own mind. Yes, I'm defeated. Colin has declared it to be full of "gross deviations". QED.

And, for someone who snipes at everything and everyone in the most disrespectful manner possible, you have to be the thinnest skinned individual I've encountered on the web. You see insults were there are none - and then you go nuts. I gather in the post above you thought I was laughing at Seelow itself, rather than the idea of Seelow being problem free in TOAW. Did you notice I included two of my own scenarios as examples of "not perfect"?
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Okay. I'd like to see you defend two elements in this post. In what way are my eyes 'self-serving'

You're chained to your theory about pre-20th Century scenarios. No matter what the true state of affairs may be, your observations will be twisted to fit that theory. It's your standard operating procedure.

Actually, in one of your earlier posts above, I had actually detected a fair assesment. But you then reverted to form.
and how are my assertions 'false'?

Have you provided any basis for them? No. Baseless = false. Now at least Ben supports his assertions with his observations from the AAR. Of course, as I've pointed out tirelessly, his observations have been consistently off.

I asked you specifically "what distortions?" in the last post. All I got was just another declaration that it was full of "gross deviations" without any specifics or evidence of those specifics.

Here's the reality: There isn't a single thing in that AAR that you can point at and say for certain a Napoleonic force couldn't have done it. The distances are too small and the scenario length too short.
The fact of the matter is that you're doing what you typically do when you start losing an argument: begin resorting to insult instead. It's one of your more repulsive traits.

As usual, you're a legend in you're own mind. Yes, I'm defeated. Colin has declared it to be full of "gross deviations". QED.

And, for someone who snipes at everything and everyone in the most disrespectful manner possible, you have to be the thinnest skinned individual I've encountered on the web. You see insults were there are none - and then you go nuts. I gather in the post above you thought I was laughing at Seelow itself, rather than the idea of Seelow being problem free in TOAW. Did you notice I included two of my own scenarios as examples of "not perfect"?

I went 'nuts'? Lessee: this is 'going nuts':

'The fact of the matter is that you're doing what you typically do when you start losing an argument: begin resorting to insult instead.'

That happens to be true. Bob, I gotta admit. I'm floored by your awesome logic. You have, directly and convincingly, addressed every single objection that's been raised. I guess you've carried the day -- yet again. Obviously, OPART III models pre-twentieth century warfare just fine. Let me get cracking on that 'Reconquista' scenario I was thinking about: should work great.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
User avatar
Veers
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:04 am

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Veers »

Wow, this is great stuff, guys. Keep 'er up. Quite enjoying it. [:D]
To repeat history in a game is to be predictable.
If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Veers

Wow, this is great stuff, guys. Keep 'er up. Quite enjoying it. [:D]

Actually, we're working on a compilation: sort of a 'greatest hits.'
I am not Charlie Hebdo
User avatar
Veers
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:04 am

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Veers »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

ORIGINAL: Veers

Wow, this is great stuff, guys. Keep 'er up. Quite enjoying it. [:D]

Actually, we're working on a compilation: sort of a 'greatest hits.'
Oh wow. That'll be a real whopper of a read. :D
To repeat history in a game is to be predictable.
If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.
User avatar
a white rabbit
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2002 3:11 pm
Location: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by a white rabbit »

..i liked Killer Angels, great fun..
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4142
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

As did the initial Ligny dispositions.

Well check out the battlefield at Waterloo. With HQs and artillery, I rather suspect that the French put more than nine units in one hex.
Stragglers are hunted down by forces at least superior to them. If they are division sized, they'll be chased down by division sized parties at least.

Actually, the thing about stragglers is that they're disorganised- so ten men can kill a hundred by picking them off one at a time. This is why pursuing a routed army is so effective compared to fighting a pitched battle.
Where is that perfect WWII scenario that has no problems and recreates all aspects of its subject perfectly? It's not CFNA - there are no minefields and the supply system is too crude. It's not Okinawa - there are no caves. Barbarossa sims have no production system and the weather model sucks. And were the Poles really motivated to hold out for 8 turns instead of 7?

Every scenario has its problems. It's a question of the magnitude of those problems.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15067
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
\Well check out the battlefield at Waterloo. With HQs and artillery, I rather suspect that the French put more than nine units in one hex.

Again, it depends upon where the hex boundaries are. I'd put Waterloo at four hexes wide and three deep.

Before you object, remember that units deployed in three hexes could span as much as 7.5km or as little as just over 2.5km. And for four hexes those numbers would be max of 10km, min of just over 5km. The Waterloo deployments were certainly spread out over far more than 5km wide and 2.5km deep.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15067
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..i liked Killer Angels, great fun..

Thank you, Richard. Have you seen the new version with the improved counter colors (included in 3.2)? I picked them off of photos of real Civil War uniforms.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
a white rabbit
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2002 3:11 pm
Location: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..i liked Killer Angels, great fun..

Thank you, Richard. Have you seen the new version with the improved counter colors (included in 3.2)? I picked them off of photos of real Civil War uniforms.

..not yet, i'll look later..

..i'd maybe have liked it a bit bigger, but as an SPI Quad game, it worked, i finished it..


..and if i feel up to painting an ACW army again, i'll give the 3D icons a try. Strange how they fulfill the gotta paint 25mm figurines bit in me..

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4142
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Again, it depends upon where the hex boundaries are. I'd put Waterloo at four hexes wide and three deep.

I had a look. 3 1/2 miles wide by 2 1/2 miles deep. In kilometres, that's 5.6 by 4.

You proceed to excuse your definition by talking about where the hex boundaries fall; doesn't this tell you something about the suitability of dividing up a Napoleonic battlefield into 6.25 square kilometre sections?
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 15067
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Again, it depends upon where the hex boundaries are. I'd put Waterloo at four hexes wide and three deep.

I had a look. 3 1/2 miles wide by 2 1/2 miles deep. In kilometres, that's 5.6 by 4.

Is that just the French? The Dutch-Belgians had something split off to the west that would have made the British position a bit wider. I'm out of town, so I can't check now. Regardless, those figures, as I said, permit 4x3.
You proceed to excuse your definition by talking about where the hex boundaries fall; doesn't this tell you something about the suitability of dividing up a Napoleonic battlefield into 6.25 square kilometre sections?

Not if I'm modeling it operationally. How is that different from any other operational scenario. "France 1944" doesn't have to get all the tactical minutia of Omaha Beach detailed. It abstracts it.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
ColinWright
Posts: 2604
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Not if I'm modeling it operationally. How is that different from any other operational scenario. "France 1944" doesn't have to get all the tactical minutia of Omaha Beach detailed. It abstracts it.

Yeah -- but Omaha Beach wasn't the nub and the gist of the entire 1944 campaign. That's one of the many areas where OPART falls down when it comes to the pre-modern era: it can't accomodate the difference in scale between the arena of strategic movement and that of actual battlefield decision. Strikingly, this remains true even when you have an arena as sharpy confined as that of the Waterloo Campaign.
I am not Charlie Hebdo
User avatar
a white rabbit
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2002 3:11 pm
Location: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..

RE: Pre-WWI Possibilities?

Post by a white rabbit »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Not if I'm modeling it operationally. How is that different from any other operational scenario. "France 1944" doesn't have to get all the tactical minutia of Omaha Beach detailed. It abstracts it.

Yeah -- but Omaha Beach wasn't the nub and the gist of the entire 1944 campaign. That's one of the many areas where OPART falls down when it comes to the pre-modern era: it can't accomodate the difference in scale between the arena of strategic movement and that of actual battlefield decision. Strikingly, this remains true even when you have an arena as sharpy confined as that of the Waterloo Campaign.

..it does if you set the ground scale at some 500m, approx the effective range for artillery, or at 250m to allow for smoke and give a possible cannister effective of 1 hex for a two hex total range..

..300*500=150,000m=150k sides (or 75k at 250m). admitedly this doesn't give you the invasion of Russia but otherwise..
..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,
Post Reply

Return to “Scenario Design”