Advice

[wernerpruckner]

[:D][:D][:D]
a new hardcore BtR gamer is born
[:D][:D][:D]

[Hard Sarge]

just so you know, stuff happens

running a new test run, Harley and Gary got some changes in I been after

wasn't expecting the LW to react so fast, so much for AS before D-Day

[kaybayray]

Hey Guys !! [8D]

Very true statement Swift [8D] I have been a hard core strat n tactics gamer since way back in the days of Tactics II, Blitzkrieg, etc.. and many other of the old Avalon Hill games since. I have quite a collection of board games. I also have quite a collection of the computer genre strat and simm games as well. I also made it to most of the "Strategicon" conventions in LAX from the first one up thruogh the mid 90's when my career took me away from the states most of the year. You guys ever participate in any of those? They were lots of fun. Some people really put togther some great tourny's and matches. [8D]

I cant believe I had a copy of this in my hand when it first hit the shelf and I read the reviews given by some jerks and put it back on the shelf. I think now that they were looking for another one of the Quake type first person shooter games and didnt like it because it invoked the "T" word. You had to "Think" to play it or have fun with it. [X(] If I recall correctly that kind of game was all the rage back then.

Well after much contemplation of what I should do in my campaign here is the AAR.

In both theatres MTO and ETO I basically followed the same doctrine. On the previous 2 days of actions I sent out large amounts of recon focused on locating what AF's had AC and what the status of the Flak on each base was. Probably used > 75% of my recon assests for this. I then set up a few bombing missions with as much Escort as I could put on them. In MTO I am dealing with this Avalanche restrictions and in ETO I am dealing with this Sub Pen and UFAC restrictions. MTO is not so bad but ETO man, these UFAC's are a long way in. Then I set up a maximum effort on bot fronts for Fighter Sweeps targeting those bases that had the highest number of Fighters and the lowest concentration of Flak. Setting the 109's and 190's at the highest priority for targeting since they have had the highest success rate against my AC.

I then adjusted the mission times such that the fighter sweeps would all reach their intended target Before any of the Bomging missions would launch. My hope was that I would catch as many LW AC on the ground as possible. Thus maximizing the effects of the Sweeps knowing I was going to get hammered.

I then had to adjust the altitude of the missions because the weather was looking really bad IMO, 53% cloud cover at 10500ft over most of the areas where the sweeps were to be undertaken and a bit better over the Primary Target for the 8th the UFAC, 25% cloud cover at 9600ft. So I set all the missions except the UFAC mission to 7000 ft. I set the mission to the UFAC to 21000ft. Realizing that that would not necessarily be the same during the missions I could plan all I want but in the end I would be foreced to just hope for the best.

I then adjusted the Escort for the main strat run to the UFAC. The entire time I am thinking "man I am really haging these guys waaay out there" because I could just barely cover each segment of the run with only 1 Fighter Squadron. I set them to High Escort at 3000 feet above the Bombers.

I then crossed my fingers, toes, eyes and elboes, sprinklied the magic powder around the room and clicked my heels 3 times and said "I'm not a Mad Fool" "I'm Not a Mad Fool" "I'm Not a Mad Fool" and ended the planning phase and pushed the Start button. [&o]


So the Sun comes out the birds chirp and my "Brilliant Master Plan" [:D][:D][:D] Begins to unfold on the unsuspecting Luftwaffe. [8D]


So the clock hits 6:00 am and it begins. My Eagles take wing. [:D][:D][:D]

Then at about 6:10 I see it... OMG NOOOOOO!!! all my recon birds launched with the Fighter Sweeps.... HOLY CANNOLLIES BATMAN !! and in the famous words of Astro the Wonder Dog of the Jetsons... RUH ROH !! I forgot to adjust the time of my recon missions. The LW gona think it Black Thursday again..... so now I am litterally sitting on the edge of my chair thinking "THis is not gona be pretty" and I am looking for the "Recall" button that dont exist just so I can use it if I need to punch out..

[Request # 1 Please include the ability to recall a mission in the Matrix version]

My sweeps begin to approach their targets and I look at the weather with the cloud cover still at 10,000 ft + I begin saying to myself... Please SEE the target!! Air raid sirens sound and the Mayhem begins. My fighters start shredding the LW to bits on the ground. With every attack I am catch myself saying "Yeah.. Right On ...." and in a long succession I see "Damaged, Dammaged, Destroyed, Dammaged, Dammaged, Destroyed, etc..." My sweeps march across Europe laying waste to the Luftwaffe on the ground.

Then at about 7:45 or so the Luftwaffe wakes up with the two deepest AF's still to be hit. As time ticks on I watch those fields hoping I will catch them on the ground. One of my squadrons attacks a rail yard. I am thinking, "What are you guys doing?? You're supposed to be doing a fighter sweep not shooting up Boxcar Willy" But just as my sweeps get very close to the deepest AF's AC start launching in groups of 3's. My sweeps attack and manage to catch some on the ground. Not what I had hoped for but some is better then none at this point. The tally now with all sweeps completed is 55 LW destroyed on the ground and 12 of my AC destroyed.

0800 rolls around and my Bomber missions launch. Now that the easy part is done the rough part of the day begins. My faster bombers quickly approach their targets, the B25's, B26's and the Dive Bombers hit their targets. Airaid sirens sound and I think to myself "See Target... See Target... !!" They all do and then make the turn for the run home as the gathering swarm of the Luftwaffe is closing.

My sweeps are returning and the LW is strongly engaging them. Fight after fight I watch as the LW attacks and destroys my fighters and the fighters seem to not defend themselvs. Most of these are Spit IX's which is a pretty good fighter. I can see 109's and 190's chewing up Spit V's but I think the Spit IX's should fend much better. [Request # 2 Please allow fighter AC to defend themselves when attacked by intercepters]. The tole of my aircraft losses is mounting on the return flight.

My one strat mission is getting close to the target UFAC and the LW begins to engage. I am sweating bullets now. Attack after attack my formation runs the gauntlet to the target and one after another the B-17's begin to fall fromt he sky. My P-47C's engage all the while. With each 109 or 190 destroyed or damaged I give out a cheer and with each P47 and B17 damaged or destroyed I think "Man I am not gona have an Air Force left after this". The formation gets to the target and again I am hanging on the edge of my chair thinking "See the Target .. PLEASE See the Target !!!" cause I dont even want to make this run again. Air raid siren sounds, "2/813 Pathfinders Over the Target" .... tic tic tic tic tic "3XB-17's of 2/813 Pathfinders Bomb Evil Nazi UFAC" ... "WHAMMY!!!! All your base are mine !!! I have over 236 B-17's over the target and they actuallly see it. Squadron after squadron bomb the factory.

My formation now turns for home and the LW relentlessly engages. Now I have the Zerstorer's engaging, 110's, 410's with the rocket packs along with the 109's and 190's are chewing at my formation while my "Jugs" do their best to defend the "Forts". Man I am litterally hangin on the edge of my seat watching aircraft after aircraft crash to the ground. We cross the coast and are heading across the channel and still the Luftwaffe engages. Finally about half way across the channel they break off and head for home.

Finally I can relax as my formations make their way to their bases. The missions all end and now for the reconning.

MTO
Pattipagglia Rail 83%
Potenza Rail 59%

ETO
Quimper Rail 99%
Mardyc AF 79%
Drucat AF 89%
St. Valery AF 60%
Nordseewerke UFAC 100%

Aircraft Losses

Luftwaffe
137 (55 on Ground)

Allies
91 (24 Bomber/67 Fighter)
All but a few 5 or 6 bombers were from the strat run on the UFAC and probably about half of the fighter losses were from the returning sweeps which did not seem to engage much. May have been due to the altitude they were at. [Request #3 Please allow to change altitude along the waypoints of the mission] [Request #4 please allow the addition of waypoints]

The morale of several of the Bomber squadrons that made the strat run went from in the 50's and 60's down into the 20's. I have noted a change on most squadrons of only about 5 or so in morale each day of stand down. These squadrons are most likely out of action for a week or so I think.

I did not utilize BC this day because overall their morale is too low and they need a couple more days of stand down to get it together before I throw them back at the LW.

Target restrictions continue in both theatres however I can not target anything by the 8th other than UFAC. All of which are at extreme range for my current aircraft compliment. This allows me to only form up one strat mission on any given day and leave 2/3 of my Bomber force on the ground inactive due to the lack of proper fighter cover. By proper I mean our aircraft escorting them all the way to the target and back, not we escort them part of the way then the Luftwaffe escorts them to the target and back part of the way where our fighters pick them up and escort them back to base. The latter does not work as well as the former IMO. [8D]

I need more aircraft with longer operating range and I need them Now because I am afraid that I wont have an Air Force in another 30 days without them. [8D]

So for a few days it looks like it is going to be recon only until my forces regain morale. I can continue with fighter sweeps but that is proving as costly as the strat runs with respect to fighters lost. Not sure how long I can trade AC for AC with the LW and come out on top. I need these target restrictions to go away so I can actually hurt their industry. I flew past a lot of great targets to hit that UFAC and at tremendous losses IMO. Not sure how much longer I can hold up without a large increase in fighters to allow me to use more of my strategic bombers.

Oh Well, I will ponder it.

Later,
KayBay

[Hard Sarge]

Good day, good losses for this early in the game

now I don't like to, but remember, you can trade losses of 1 to 1 with the Axis all war long, it is those 1 to 3 and 1 to 5 you got to stay away from

which also, it is a long war, when you are playing, you need every plane, and every day of good weather, but to be honest, you don't, you can stand down, you can rest and the war is still going to be there

(of course, if you get a bad weather spell, and then get a good day, the normal mind set is to go right back to where you were before the weather closed in, but the LW has been resting also)

only hassle I got, is the target, that is one of the smallest UFACs, those two at Bremen are size 14-15, the one at Hamburg is a 25 (of course, the hassle is they are deeper and are sure to have lots of flak (a Human, will be planting every Heavy Flak gun they can find there from the start of the war, knowing that the missions is going to be happening)

Good sweeps

new game, yes, the fighters can defend themselfs, and can even pick a fight when they are on the way home, still when low on gas or headed home, they are not over off minded

yes we got more waypoints, makes it a little easier to plot around things

I want TOT for each waypoint, my guy looks at me funny, maybe down the road for the alt at waypoint, but I can understand the need

[wernerpruckner]

 
nice turn for the start [8D]
 
as HS said - most of your wishes are in the new version.
 
with 1:1 losses you are on the way to victory.....but it is not A/C the German player is short of...its pilots !!!
 
for UFAC raids - if you are daring enough go in from the Northern Sea with no escorts....in stock there are no very long range radars

[wernerpruckner]

another hint to your UFAC problem:
use BC to destroy the RRs close to the UFACs.....

[kaybayray]

Hey Guys [8D]

Thanks for the feedback!!

UFAC target selected
I agree with you guys. I even plotted a mission using the northern route but I was concerned that I would see >50% losses of the Bomber formation by trying it. At this early stage of the campaign I am afraid that I could not survive that. So I opted for the more conservative mission. Granted on this particular day I destroyed 137 LW AC but I traded 91 of my AC for that and as you well pointed out, it's not the AC it's the Pilots that count.

It was my hope that after hitting this one UFAC the restriction would be lifted "BZZZT WRONG!!!" [X(] I had plotted a mission to the targets in Bremen and Hamburg but they were beyond my Fighter Escort range and I did not want to place my Bombers that far out there. However since I have completely destroyed this UFAC and the restrictions remain I am left with no other option other than to go after one of those and just suck up the losses. Man I dont want to launch that mission cause I know less than half of them will return. That is a lot of Air Crews and a lot of Aircraft to throw away for a U-Boat Factory. Personally I could not care less about hitting that kind of target. IMHO I would be better served to destroy their AC industry thereby opening up the skies over the Reich to my forces where I could bomb them with impunity. But then I am not considering what the trade may be if I dont accomplish this fast enough. I may cut my own throat by allowing the U-Boat forces to destroy my supply lines and thereby reducing my ability to wage this campaign. So I guess the next stop is Bremen or Hamburg. Yikes !!


So my strategy is if I can destroy and damage a significant proportion of the LW assets that it can send up to intercept me on the day of a mission I will minimize my losses and maximize the effect of my missions. Now I am not now nor have I ever been in command of a huge Air Armada such as this so I am making it up as I go. But when in Command.... you have to Command and hopefully I will make more "good" decisions than "bad" decisions when it is all done.

Besides the obvious of Morale, Fighter Capability and Target restrictions from Senior Command I can see to major weaknesses I have going. One, I am not properly utilizing BC for both Terror score and supporting strategic objectives. Two, I lack knowledge of what is required to break down the Industry of the Reich.

As for item One, I think there is another thread in here dealing with specifics on BC I need to give that a read and see what I can glean from it. One of the issues I am having is that I have not been able to get BC to target an area with an industry such that it will actually damage that industry. At least not directly by my command. I have only seen damage to industry IMO more as an inadvertant act rather than as a function of a mission targeting. I appreciate all the info you are giving me on these topics. It is making this game much more enjoyable. Any advice you may have as to how to go about setting a BC target such that they will damage or destroy an industry of the Reich would be appreciated.

As for item Two, I have been scouring the web trying to find the document produced by Ira Eaker in his defense of the use of strategic bombing to break down the war industry of the Third Reich in WWII. I keep finding all kinds of diversions to other stuff that is all bleeding heart crap about how "evil" we were to use strategic bombing. All I want is the article he wrote and that others may have written which includes the arguments as to just how to go about breaking their industry down and what steps to take and in what sequence. I figure this game is not too far from that. So far it seems to be pretty accurate and realistic IMHO. I think that if I follow a strategy and tactical doctrine based on what was actually done in WWII I cant really go wrong. My imperssion is that a great deal of thought went into the "gutz" of this game and I have found that the deeper I go into it the tougher it gets and the more I like it. No "Power Ups" or "Ressurection Spells" in this game. [8D]


I have some work to do on the next couple of days in this campaign. Hopefully I will put something together that is not too big of a disaster. I am sure though that no matter what I do I will get hammered.

Later,
KayBay

[Hard Sarge]

for info, I got a book, by one of the guys who worked out the different war plans that were used during the war, then he was a BG commander and later went out to the PTO and took over the B-29 command (it is buried here somewhere, if I find it , I will tell the name and the General who wrote it)

roger, that is part of the fun of the game, the choices that got to be made, you can fly missions only 150 miles from base, all war long, but that don't get the job done

overall, I do not know any reason for doing the Manatory missions, other then, you got to, and there are other ones out there too

it is more the pressure that is put on you as the commander

the big hassle early, is there is so much you have to do, so much you have to knock out and you don't have what is needed to do so, it is a slow build up and then, in the end, if you did the early parts right, you can do what you want

the first game I played and won as the Allies, oh so long ago, when I went back and looked at some of the saves, I was with in weeks of loseing the game and never knew it, i was right on the edge of a LW AutoVictory, so you can come back from the brink of defeat

just keep at it and have fun

and hopefully, you will then be able to get to work on the new and improved model, before the war ends

(BTR, the only game that takes longer to play then the real war did)

[harley]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
(BTR, the only game that takes longer to play then the real war did)

I *still* haven't finished a game as the allies - in 9 years of playing. I got a long way once, then some idiot named Ron came along and offered me the chance to make it better... the fool I was...

[Hard Sarge]

LOL

yea, I got 2 Allied Wins in, I think Swift has a couple, know that Graybeard got one (short campaign, the lazy dog)

I have many in the middle of 44 and then JC would need something looked at and time to start over again

I was getting pretty good at the first turn

[wernerpruckner]

I have ended several PBEMs on both sides, and many games ended due to real life problems.
Vs the AI the same as HS, but I was able to end two games as Allied, and a few as German ( much easier and faster - as long as you know what to do )
Most of the game errors were found due to PBEM playing, because I tend to look much closer in a PBEM.

[Hard Sarge]

just in case, I was cleaning up my area (read looking for something) and I found that book I was talking about

the Strategic Air War against Germany and Japan, by Haywood S. Hansell Jr

USAF Warrior Studies, Office of Air Force History

interesting but a little dry, you should be able to find it at a decent price used

as I was saying it is interesting as this was one of the guys who did the overall planning, and then became a BG commander who had to fly the missions he had helped plan at the start of the war, and then moved to the PTO and became a Airforce Commander (he did most of the ground work getting the B-29s ready, when LeMay came in and took over)

[kaybayray]

Sarge,
Yes I have found some material about General Hansell. Very interesting reading. Strange that in this day I have been unable to find the documents Eaker produced to make the case for Daylight Strategic Bombing.

However I believe the web is rife with bleeding hearts and I have found literally millions of sites condemning the strategy alltogether. Produced mostly IMHO by Mental Midgets. But that is another topic altogether.

I will look for that book. Thanks.

I was hoping to see what the mindset was and the research and analysis that was done going into the Air Campaign not the Post War analysis. Would like to know what the "Plan" was and what was placed on the "Target" list and in what priority and reasoning as to why or why not. Thought it might be interesting to follow that as a guideline since I dont really consider myself an authority on the topic.

I am still working on getting through the next few days of my campaign and see if I can effect anything.

Thanks again,
KayBay
[8D]

[jjb17463rd]

My father was General Hansell's personal pilot in the states for a short while on June 6,7 and 8th 1945.Brig General Hansell is also in the William Wyler Memphis Belle war documentary film.

Here is part of my fathers Pilot's log Book that lists Brig. General Hansell.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5128/2bsy9.jpg

[kaybayray]

Hey Guys !! [8D]

I am back in action again. Real Life got in the way and I been out of action for a few months. Only flew a few more days since I last posted.

I finally got the UFAC constraint done in ETO, still hammering on the Avalance in MTO. Think that one will be going for a while I dont have a lot of heavies there.

What I am trying to fine tune is my Night Raids with BC. I let BC get Morale back up over the mid 60's across the force and I am trying to build some coordinated raids. I went back and read what Hard Sarge and Swift replied about using BC but if you have some time I sure would like a bit more help with BC. I am not seeing how to form up the few NI's to follow the bomber streams very well.

I found the pdf file of the Manual for BOB and it seems to cover most of the general mechanics. However it is pretty lacking in detail in this area. Request #3 Please include some detailed examples on how to setup various types of missions in the Matrix version. Gets frustrating when it takes me several hours to setup a days worth of missions and then a couple hours for them to fly only to see foul ups that I could have avoided if I knew what I was doing when I set it up. [8D]

Anyways, thanks much guys I am doing much better over all and cant wait until the game gets further along so I have a REAL Air Force to play with. [&o]

My time is gona get thinned a bit soon, been eyeing another Matrix game Forge of Freedom. Think I will be picking that up here in a couple months. [:D] Put it on my Birthday list to the Wife. [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[wernerpruckner]

welcome back!!
 
if you want to play Forge of Freedom, take also a look at this one: Gary Grigsby’s War Between the States [:D]

[Hard Sarge]

just in case, I was a beta test on both of those, so any questions, drop me a line

both are very good, and very different from each other

so depending on what you are interested in, one of them should do it for you

[kaybayray]

Hey Guys [8D]

I am really struggeling with Bomber Command. The missions I am building dont seem to be running the way I am planning them.

Example:
I build a corridor to/from the target area with RCM aircraft, ring the target area with RCM aircraft, Add Mossy Night Fighters to orbit at and around the targets and near the RCM aircraft patrol points. I place small groups of Night Fighters along the corridor and over and near the targets.

When I run the missions the RCM aircraft go to their stations and orbit, the Bomber forces go to their targets and bomb but the Night Fighters go to their orbit points and then head for home without staying at their designated Primary Point.

Can you please point out things you think I may be doing wrong or overlooking? Everything I have read says that Night Fighters are supposed to orbit their Primay Points until fuel forces them to RTB (Return To Base). I am not seeing them do this, they are RTB as soon as they hit their Primary Points. If Night Fighters can not be attached to Bomber streams, if they cant orbit arbitrary points on the map what can they be allocated to? My last set of missions I assigned a group of 6 Mossy NFII's to a base I had seen launch night fighters from and they flew to it and immediately RTB.

Also I am pounding the Heck out of cities near coastal regions of the map (Because I just get my head handed to me flying into Germany at this point) and I am not seeing any increase in Terror score. I have pretty much devistated 8 or 9 cities and have charred about 30% of Paris and no change in Terror score.

Is there some constraint that states I must hit only certain "Area" targets to effect Terror Score? I figure if Area targets in France, Holland and Belgium were not legitimate targets they would not be on the map for me to bomb. If this is not true please tell me.

Thanks,
KayBay

[Hard Sarge]

okay first, off, what are your RCM planes carrieing ?, early on, they should just be Elint, which means they are trying to pick up info on the LW radar sites, other then maybe learning details, they do not do anything (later on, when you get jammers, then you can you them to build a path way)

NF's, I am willing to bet you are send them in a stream (sending more then one on the same mission) in that case, they will all fly to a point and then fly home, Single aircraft missions, work as Intruders and that single plane will orbit the patrol area, and it can patrol anywhere on the map , that it is allowed to

one trick I used to like the the Streaming NFs, is to send them on a path that overflies a number of LW airfields, and since each takes off at a different time, you may have up to 6 planes flying across these airfields over set time, and have a slight chance of catching planes trying to land, with out them patrolling each of these bases

steaming NFs have a better chance of getting into fights with the new game then in the old game, but it is still kind of iffy, but you may what to plot the NFs 2 or 3 K below the BC raid alt, as most LW NFs are going to come in, from the belly to make there attacks, so plotting the escourts to be above the bombers does not work as well

[Hard Sarge]

Ah, that is what I missed

are you sure the targets are Germen ? bombing "friendly" targets under Germen control, do not give Terror points (will give Stat points for takeing out RR though)

now where it is a little odd, Germany and Italy gives Terror points, targets in the eastern Med also do, so Greece will gain you Terror, but Greece should be seen as a "friendly" area ?, but...

early on, use the Elint planes, to act as decoys, plot them towards some radar in Denmark or somewhere, keep them over the water, plot some Steamers to follow them (it will look like a real raid to the radar), give them about a half hour or so to get into the air and defence, and then plots some of your bombing raids

try to draw off, confuse, wear out, the enemy, where you can, mass as many attacks though the same area (path) as you can (don't plot raids right next to each other for the target, you plot 5 different targets around Essen, the odds are all of the raids will bomb the same place, they see the fire, and think that is there target)