AAR-smalltalk corner

[jumper]

I´m going away. You can send you ships.. [:D]

[1275psi]

Nothing worse than to line up a base for a naval attack -no there are no PTs there -and arrive to a cloud of them

Like magic the allied player creates them (and even if he is unloading them from a transport -how in the hell could they be combat ready that night -full trained crew , ammoed up, fuelled up) -and then the op points get swallowed up trying to get through the buggars.

It cheeses me off especially when PT boats are used as a substitute for proper ships.

Good house rules I use as allied player
1/ Built at size 9 port only (you need a bloody big crane for a start)
2/ Must have a support ship in the area -avg.
limit 4 boats per hex, only i TF of them per hex.
thats enough to represent the need for DDs to sweep the way clear of them - and to let the BBs have a go.

If I want to stop a Jap Task force - Ill fight it with proper ships.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: jumper

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

This business of PT's "spawning" anywhere, as if they were being built on site is a bit silly, guys. Think of them instead as deck cargo on the TF which is delivering them, and you'll see that you really should have no problems with creating them at a forward base (other than when you forget to set the home base of the PT TF, which defaults to that of the delivering supply TF and so the PTs try to return to that far away base!).

This is a good point Bradforkay, but it would require at least one transport convoy reach the base. Besides that if there is no limitation, you can use paras to grab some port base deep in enemy territory for example and if you get lucky and there is enough supplies: click-click-clik-clik-clik and you have 60 PTs there.

thank god at least this isn´t possible even if there´s enough supply there. It has to be supply brought from the US! That´s why you also can´t generate PTs in India or Australia if you never have brought US supply. But as soon as there´s supply, there are PTs en masse.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: jumper

Based on my patrol planes reports I have estimated 40-80 of them there in 7-8 TFs.. [;)] I think it is safe to say that anyone who would send his precious warships to this hornets nest would be adept for psychiatric care.. [:D]

Recon is not always accurate, news at 11.

while I wouldn´t believe the 80 PTs that jumper´s recon told him, the number you really have there would be too much for me also. But I guess we´re both not surprised to not agree here! [:D]

As you may have already found out in our game, I use "only" two PT TFs at a base with max 6 PTs each. 36 PTs at a base are TOO many...

what I would do in this case is to park KB two hexes off this base and set all Vals on 100% nav search 2 hexes at 5000 ft, watching 50% of the PTs being knocked out in the first turn and the rest the next turn. But I guess you wouldn´t like it. Perhaps you would like it if I would use 250 Helens on 100% nav search if they are close by! [:D]

[Hortlund]

Well, he has got the KB right next door, if he wants to, he can put all his bombers on 100ft naval attack and blast the PT boats to kingdom come.
Of cource I wouldnt like it, why would anyone like having his units destroyed?
 

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Well, he has got the KB right next door, if he wants to, he can put all his bombers on 100ft naval attack and blast the PT boats to kingdom come.
Of cource I wouldnt like it, why would anyone like having his units destroyed?

I´m not talking about nav attacks on 100ft. This would be a bad decision, it causes the synch bug and he would most certainly lose a lot of Vals to flak from the mighty PTs or to ops. Not to talk about the risk that they attack BBs or CAs at 100 ft then.

I´m talking about NAV SEARCH 100%. No risk, 100% effective. Would be physically possible and why not? Physically possible, sane and realistic! [;)]

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I´m not talking about nav attacks on 100ft. This would be a bad decision, it causes the synch bug and he would most certainly lose a lot of Vals to flak from the mighty PTs or to ops. Not to talk about the risk that they attack BBs or CAs at 100 ft then.

I´m talking about NAV SEARCH 100%. No risk, 100% effective. Would be physically possible and why not? Physically possible, sane and realistic! [;)]

We have a HR regarding nav search, no more than 10%. But if he wants to eliminate the PT boats, he can do it by putting his aircraft on 100ft naval attack like I said. The fact that you think its a bad idea or that you think something else is realistic will have to stand for you.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I´m not talking about nav attacks on 100ft. This would be a bad decision, it causes the synch bug and he would most certainly lose a lot of Vals to flak from the mighty PTs or to ops. Not to talk about the risk that they attack BBs or CAs at 100 ft then.

I´m talking about NAV SEARCH 100%. No risk, 100% effective. Would be physically possible and why not? Physically possible, sane and realistic! [;)]

We have a HR regarding nav search, no more than 10%. But if he wants to eliminate the PT boats, he can do it by putting his aircraft on 100ft naval attack like I said. The fact that you think its a bad idea or that you think something else is realistic will have to stand for you.

just wanted to razz you up a bit! [;)]


I don´t get enough turns from you at the moment...

[Hortlund]

Im too busy at the office these days... [:(]

[jumper]

Castor:
I doubt building PTs has anything to do with "type" of supplies. They are all the same I think. In SRA and India you can´t build PTs because you have no US base there and not because of "wrong" supplies IMO. And you don´t have US AK there either. I think if you will switch some base in India under the US command, you will be able to build as many of them as you wish using supplies generated in Karachi. Or you can have just one US AK sitting there to produce them.
I will not put my Vals and Kates to higher then 10% nav search as it is against HR and I would take his subs too.. And set my planes to nav attack at 100ft would be insane as there are fighters flying CAP. The losses would be horrible with no real gain. Even if would destroyed all 36 PTs in one day, they can be back there in 1-2 days again. It is still the same. Easy to build them, easy to replace them and easy to transport them..[;)] Life is a b*tch.. [:D] 
 
BTW does anyone know if there are any changes in AE regarding the PTs?

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: jumper

I will not put my Vals and Kates to higher then 10% nav search as it is against HR and I would take his subs too.. And set my planes to nav attack at 100ft would be insane as there are fighters flying CAP. The losses would be horrible with no real gain. Even if would destroyed all 36 PTs in one day, they can be back there in 1-2 days again. It is still the same. Easy to build them, easy to replace them and easy to transport them..[;)] Life is a b*tch.. [:D] 

Hehe, you can always pretend that you didn't understand this house rule, and after that try with some demagogue speeches...[:D]

Trust me, you wouldn't be first one!

[Hortlund]

Hey Jumper, look at this.


What I saw in the combat replay today:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/23/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 51,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 7
A6M5 Zeke x 27
A6M3a Zero x 143

Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 6
P-38G Lightning x 16
LB-30 Liberator x 12
B-24D Liberator x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
A6M5 Zeke: 9 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 3 destroyed, 16 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator VI: 5 destroyed
P-38G Lightning: 15 destroyed
LB-30 Liberator: 4 destroyed, 3 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 14 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 51,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 5
A6M5 Zeke x 27
A6M3a Zero x 140

Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 7
P-38G Lightning x 146
B-25C Mitchell x 10
B-25J Mitchell x 9
PB4Y Liberator x 3
B-24D Liberator x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 5 destroyed
A6M5 Zeke: 13 destroyed, 1 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 56 destroyed, 10 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator VI: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
P-38G Lightning: 114 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B-25J Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 3 destroyed, 11 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Hiyo, Bomb hits 1
CVE Chuyo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CVL Ryuho, Bomb hits 7, on fire, heavy damage
BB Hiei, Bomb hits 2
CV Kaga
CL Sendai

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
1 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
4 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 51,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 17
A6M5 Zeke x 17
A6M3a Zero x 93

Allied aircraft
TBF Avenger x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 1 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
TBF Avenger: 27 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 51,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 17
A6M5 Zeke x 15
A6M3a Zero x 90

Allied aircraft
TBF Avenger x 9

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBF Avenger: 9 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 51,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 17
A6M5 Zeke x 17
A6M3a Zero x 93

Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 6
Liberator VI x 3
P-38G Lightning x 7
B-25C Mitchell x 10
B-25J Mitchell x 6
B-17E Fortress x 15
PB4Y Liberator x 6
B-24D Liberator x 58

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 1 destroyed, 14 damaged
A6M5 Zeke: 6 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 10 destroyed, 45 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 5 destroyed
Liberator VI: 1 damaged
P-38G Lightning: 7 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 10 destroyed
B-25J Mitchell: 4 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 8 destroyed
PB4Y Liberator: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 37 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku
CVL Zuiho
CV Hiryu
CVE Taiyo, Bomb hits 3, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
1 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
1 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
1 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 51,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 16
A6M5 Zeke x 17
A6M3a Zero x 83

Allied aircraft
Wellington III x 8
Liberator VI x 24
P-38G Lightning x 31
B-25C Mitchell x 3
B-25J Mitchell x 9
B-17E Fortress x 85
LB-30 Liberator x 17
PB4Y Liberator x 46
B-24D Liberator x 116

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 7 destroyed, 2 damaged
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 16 destroyed, 29 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington III: 3 destroyed, 2 damaged
Liberator VI: 7 damaged
P-38G Lightning: 17 destroyed
B-25J Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 4 destroyed, 17 damaged
LB-30 Liberator: 2 damaged
PB4Y Liberator: 3 destroyed, 13 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 12 destroyed, 29 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CL Naka
CA Maya

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x Wellington III bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Wellington III bombing at 6000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
2 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 50,92


Allied aircraft
B-25J Mitchell x 3
PB4Y Liberator x 3


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Akizuki, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 51,92

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 9
A6M5 Zeke x 16
A6M3a Zero x 67

Allied aircraft
PB4Y Liberator x 3
B-24D Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 3 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryuho, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 10000 feet




What really happened:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 07/23/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 50,93

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 5

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 103
B-24D Liberator x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38G Lightning: 4 destroyed, 6 damaged

Japanese Ships
DD Akizuki, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-24D Liberator bombing at 10000 feet

[Hortlund]

Something really weird happened between the past two turns. Almost all of my transport TFs off Australia has had their orders and homeports reset to San Fransisco. Two CV TFs have moved several hexes in the wrong direction. Ive never seen anything like this before.
 
 

[cantona2]

Being ill at home with no turns in the inbox SUCKS bigtime

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

Nothing worse than to line up a base for a naval attack -no there are no PTs there -and arrive to a cloud of them

Like magic the allied player creates them (and even if he is unloading them from a transport -how in the hell could they be combat ready that night -full trained crew , ammoed up, fuelled up) -and then the op points get swallowed up trying to get through the buggars.

It cheeses me off especially when PT boats are used as a substitute for proper ships.

Good house rules I use as allied player
1/ Built at size 9 port only (you need a bloody big crane for a start)
2/ Must have a support ship in the area -avg.
limit 4 boats per hex, only i TF of them per hex.
thats enough to represent the need for DDs to sweep the way clear of them - and to let the BBs have a go.

If I want to stop a Jap Task force - Ill fight it with proper ships.

On 24 October 1944, Admiral Nishimura tried to force Surigao Strait in the Battle of Leyte Gulf. The first ships that met his force were 39 PT Boats. These boats had been packaged up and strapped to the decks of AK's that were part of the invasion force. They were offloaded, unpacked and made operation in less than 72 hours. So all you JapFanBoys griping about the instant appearance of PT's as being ahistorical really are barking up the wrong tree. The problem with the PT's is not how they appear but that they ae too effective. Torpedo hits were rare to non-existant when launched from PT Boats. The sources vary but at least one source I know of claims no US pT Boat ever launched a successful torpedo attack against a Japanese ship. The only thing the USN found the PT's could do with any modicum of efficacy was barge busting in the Solomons and they weren't great at even that. The WiTP engine treats PT's as very small DD's when in real life they were more like water borne torpedo bombers. Their attacks occured at night and often were very disorganized. The boats were so fragile, any effective fire by a Dd was enough to disable or detroy them. Seems to me what some modder should do is greatly decrease the accuracy of the torpedoes on the PT's (if that is possible) and they problem would solve itself. Also as the war went on, the USN upgunned some PT's to be better barge busters replace the aft 20 mm with 37 mm or 40 mm guns. The USN also used combined PT/LCI(G) TF's to intercept barges in the Solomons

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

Nothing worse than to line up a base for a naval attack -no there are no PTs there -and arrive to a cloud of them

Like magic the allied player creates them (and even if he is unloading them from a transport -how in the hell could they be combat ready that night -full trained crew , ammoed up, fuelled up) -and then the op points get swallowed up trying to get through the buggars.

It cheeses me off especially when PT boats are used as a substitute for proper ships.

Good house rules I use as allied player
1/ Built at size 9 port only (you need a bloody big crane for a start)
2/ Must have a support ship in the area -avg.
limit 4 boats per hex, only i TF of them per hex.
thats enough to represent the need for DDs to sweep the way clear of them - and to let the BBs have a go.

If I want to stop a Jap Task force - Ill fight it with proper ships.

On 24 October 1944, Admiral Nishimura tried to force Surigao Strait in the Battle of Leyte Gulf. The first ships that met his force were 39 PT Boats. These boats had been packaged up and strapped to the decks of AK's that were part of the invasion force. They were offloaded, unpacked and made operation in less than 72 hours. So all you JapFanBoys griping about the instant appearance of PT's as being ahistorical really are barking up the wrong tree. The problem with the PT's is not how they appear but that they ae too effective. Torpedo hits were rare to non-existant when launched from PT Boats. The sources vary but at least one source I know of claims no US pT Boat ever launched a successful torpedo attack against a Japanese ship. The only thing the USN found the PT's could do with any modicum of efficacy was barge busting in the Solomons and they weren't great at even that. The WiTP engine treats PT's as very small DD's when in real life they were more like water borne torpedo bombers. Their attacks occured at night and often were very disorganized. The boats were so fragile, any effective fire by a Dd was enough to disable or detroy them. Seems to me what some modder should do is greatly decrease the accuracy of the torpedoes on the PT's (if that is possible) and they problem would solve itself. Also as the war went on, the USN upgunned some PT's to be better barge busters replace the aft 20 mm with 37 mm or 40 mm guns. The USN also used combined PT/LCI(G) TF's to intercept barges in the Solomons

Actually what I think would work best is to treat PT's as A/C. The unit would be a squadron with an assigned number of boats. To deploy this unit to the fron it would need to be loaded on an AK and transported there. Once at the site the PT's would operate exactly like A/C with boats being damaged and/or destroyed and then replaced from a pool. Of course it would require completely rewriting the code but I wonder if a clever modder could actually do it within the current rules. Actually create an aircraft called the ELCO 80. Range: 3 Durability of a medium bomber. Make them night capable. Hmmmmmmm

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

The problem with the PT's is not how they appear but that they ae too effective.

Why do you think that we JFBs don't like to see more than 12 PTs in the base hex? Just because they are ugly?[:'(]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Something really weird happened between the past two turns. Almost all of my transport TFs off Australia has had their orders and homeports reset to San Fransisco. Two CV TFs have moved several hexes in the wrong direction. Ive never seen anything like this before.

Could be worse. You could have a SAG move into enemy LBA range, sit there for an entire turn and sunk...yes ALL of them...oh yeah, all this without orders to do so. They were supposed to head for Ndini, instead they went to Lunga...and home port was set to Luganville. And yes I am sure I had the orders right, I wasn't sending anything to Lunga at that point, too much LBA to deal with. Can anyone explain that one?

This happens every now and then.

[cantona2]

Question for the elders...does a replinshment convoy need both fuel and supplies or just tankers and oilers brimming with fuel

[jumper]

I have checked the ships status and they are all right. Also run the replay again and got the same result as before. But I have 2 TF which were heading from Osaka to some forward bases with LCU and now, in the middle of their route, they turn back and are heading back Osaka so something went wrong.. I have to correct their commands next turn..
 
But I see it is time to leave. 4E are on naval attack every turn and they are clearly unstoppable. From where came those avengers? If they came from your CVs, why there was no strike from my own CVs?