F4F Wildcat

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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mdiehl
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by mdiehl »

Most of the other troops in the world would have surrendered. Closer to religous fanatics then soldiers in that sense.


I disagree. Clearly the Soviets under similar circumstances fought to the bitter end. You can't tell me that a bunch of guys holed up in a fortified basement while Germans poured gasoline and grenades down the stairwell lacked for commitment. Likewise, US Army forces in the Phillippines held out under similar circumstances far longer than the Japanese expected, although ultimately they were isolated and had nowhere to go. Some of 'em simply refused to surrender and were overrun and died in place. Others refused to surrender and waged a reasonably effective guerilla campaign that paid huge dividends in 1944 (Ramsey comes to mind).

The tendency to surrender or not seems to have been largely determined by one's expectations from the enemy to whom one might surrender. The Japanese were fairly constantly indoctrinated into the belief that their lives were as valueless to potential captors as they were to the Japanese high command. So they on the whole expected no quarter and tended not to give quarter. In many instances, the consequent outrages stood the more noble ideals of "Bushido" squarely on its head.
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HansBolter
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Most of the other troops in the world would have surrendered. Closer to religous fanatics then soldiers in that sense.


I disagree. Clearly the Soviets under similar circumstances fought to the bitter end. You can't tell me that a bunch of guys holed up in a fortified basement while Germans poured gasoline and grenades down the stairwell lacked for commitment. Likewise, US Army forces in the Phillippines held out under similar circumstances far longer than the Japanese expected, although ultimately they were isolated and had nowhere to go. Some of 'em simply refused to surrender and were overrun and died in place. Others refused to surrender and waged a reasonably effective guerilla campaign that paid huge dividends in 1944 (Ramsey comes to mind).

The tendency to surrender or not seems to have been largely determined by one's expectations from the enemy to whom one might surrender. The Japanese were fairly constantly indoctrinated into the belief that their lives were as valueless to potential captors as they were to the Japanese high command. So they on the whole expected no quarter and tended not to give quarter. In many instances, the consequent outrages stood the more noble ideals of "Bushido" squarely on its head.


The same holds true for the Germans on the eastern front knowing what kind of treatment they could expect at the hands of the "Ivans".
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mdiehl
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by mdiehl »

Absolutely.
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OG_Gleep
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by OG_Gleep »

Eh I'd aruge those examples are different and taking isolated examples of a much broader subject. German units did surrender on the eastern front, American units did surrender (while island after Island of Japanese Garrisons in the same position did not)etc. etc. I am not aware of a single Japanese unit, a major formation surrendering. Pockets surrendered, but again, those are isolated examples. May be wrong tho.
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tocaff
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by tocaff »

It was a cultural thing.
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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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mdiehl
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by mdiehl »

True, but the idea that they all went down fighting heroically to take that last enemy down with them is pure myth. When Japanese units' morale broke it was, as some have phrased it, expressed in a culturally different way.

Under the best of circumstances, of those who refused to surrender, most committed suicide or became honorably drunk and ended it all in a hopelessly ineffective suicide charge. In the worst instances, hopelessly demoralized Japanese units went into an orgy of slaughter that began with murdering all of the civilians they could round up. That practice stood in explicit contrast to the concept of honor expressed in the "Bushido" way. When the Japanese "fought to the bitter end" they tended to adversely affect non-combatants to a far greater degree than they affected enemy combatants. So I'm not willing to concede any nobility of purpose or deed to Japanese bitter-enders. The record of demoralized IJA soldiers strikes me as having more in common with cartoon androids or, perhaps, a dangerous variant of a mob of drunken disappointed sports fans rioting after a loss to a rival.
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OG_Gleep
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by OG_Gleep »

I don't think what they did was noble. I equated them to religous fanatics, which any American knows what that means. There are many examples of noble and heroic actions in this and other conflicts, when soldiers were asked to Hold at all costs, but by and large the reasons were tactical, atleast for US and British.
 
The Japanese, and even Russians were different. Stalin was just as insane as the Japanese, throwing division after division under the German steamroller just to bleed them. Theres nothing noble about sacraficing 10 of yours to get 1 of theirs.
 
I don't think its nessisarily cultural. When you have insane people in power, insanity follows.
mdiehl
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by mdiehl »

When you have insane people in power, insanity follows.


Brief. Erudite. Suitable for an election year. I like it! [;)]
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Long Lance
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RE: F4F Wildcat

Post by Long Lance »

Edit: Sorry, I was playing around with my daughter and the smileys and posted this accidently
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