AI for MWIF - Poland

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses? 

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.  The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.

Yes. Capturing Berlin on impulse #2 is not unheardof.

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses? 

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.  The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.

The polish units don’t just want to wander into Germany in fear of risking giving the +.025 enemy in home country Production Multiple or the +0.25 Enemy land attack bonus if the attack a GE unit.

I experimented with a Southern Marauder defence, in Katowice is the 1-4 INF DIV and the 3-4 CAV, the plan was to go for conquer Czechoslovakia or to destroy the oil filed but supply is a issue, the interesting hexes is just out of one impulse reach for the polish units. May be if the HQI also was in Katowice , but the defence of the rest of Poland is very weak. And it’s easy for the German to spoil the plan.

* Southern Marauder defence

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses? 

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.  The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.

The polish units don’t just want to wander into Germany in fear of risking giving the +.025 enemy in home country Production Multiple or the +0.25 Enemy land attack bonus if the attack a GE unit.

I experimented with a Southern Marauder defence, in Katowice is the 1-4 INF DIV and the 3-4 CAV, the plan was to go for conquer Czechoslovakia or to destroy the oil filed but supply is a issue, the interesting hexes is just out of one impulse reach for the polish units. May be if the HQI also was in Katowice , but the defence of the rest of Poland is very weak. And it’s easy for the German to spoil the plan.

* Southern Marauder defence

Well, if you put the 3-4 where the 3-3 is, it can reach Berlin. I'll give the Germans the production multiple if I can destroy a Berlin factory.

I notice that the German player here is quite a'feared of the the Poles, since he built all 3 of its forts along the Oder.

[Orm]

Putting the cavalry in Poznan with the option to move to Berlin could indeed be included into Polish setups and be part of the AI consideration. It does not weaken the defence of Poland by beeing setup in Poznan so you do not lose anything by doing so (except some mobility that Poland seldom has use for anyway).

But before a Polish Unit advances into Germany it should look into if there is any real gains to be made by doing so.

The Sequence of play makes it tricky to now if it is worth to advance into Germany (especially if you play with that you can save oil).

In the end of turn you do things in this order.
1) Production
2) Conquest
3) Factory Destruction (remember that a corps must be in supply to destroy a factory and can only destroy a blue factory)

Let me give 2 examples why the AI should avoid advancing into Germany.

Example 1:
1) A Polish unit captures Berlin and is in supply from Poznan. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factories in Berlin but make up for the factory production lost with higher production multiple. (Germanys production goes form 17 to 20 gaining 3 build points and may save some oil for the factories not producing).
2) Poland survies to fight on.
3) No factory is destroyed by the Polish unit in Berlin because all factories in Berlin are red in MWIF.

Example 2:
1) A Polish unit captures another city with a blue factory (ex. Stettin) and is in supply from Poznan. Germany captures Lodz and Warsaw. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factory in Stettin but gains more production with the higher production multiple (Prod goes from 17 to 22 (not counting the polish factory) and saves some extra oil).
2) Poland is conquered and the polish unit in Stettin is removed.
3) No factory is destroyed.

In the above example Germany could perhaps set the Polish unit in Stettin out of supply if he feared he could not conquer Poland during this turn. With the option of saving oil Germany lose little (just delayed production) with a unit out of supply in Stettin.

-Orm

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Putting the cavalry in Poznan with the option to move to Berlin could indeed be included into Polish setups and be part of the AI consideration. It does not weaken the defence of Poland by beeing setup in Poznan so you do not lose anything by doing so (except some mobility that Poland seldom has use for anyway).

But before a Polish Unit advances into Germany it should look into if there is any real gains to be made by doing so.


-Orm

All this is entirely logical but since it is most likely to occur against a newbie we should not underestimate the salutary effect of the AI taking Berlin!

[brian brian]

Katowice is still a good place to set up though...with lots of Germans in East Prussia, a few in Silesia, slow Germans in Czechoslovakia and rain on the second Axis impulse you are more likely to cost the Germans some resource points than anything else the Poles can do. They just ned to stay in Katowice and probably get a favorably poor combat roll on the German's part. If the rain comes and the Germans are still in the Katowice area after a good combat roll they might not make it to the Lodz/Warsaw area later in the turn.

Or with no one south of Katowice they might be able to occupy Brno and put Vienna in a ZoC if the Germans are really, really unprepared in the south.
(this wouldn't generate the enemy-unit-in-supply-in-home-country production bonus but would take two German factories off-line...Prague and the resource hex to the West might also be in range with two moves)

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Putting the cavalry in Poznan with the option to move to Berlin could indeed be included into Polish setups and be part of the AI consideration. It does not weaken the defence of Poland by beeing setup in Poznan so you do not lose anything by doing so (except some mobility that Poland seldom has use for anyway).

But before a Polish Unit advances into Germany it should look into if there is any real gains to be made by doing so.

The Sequence of play makes it tricky to now if it is worth to advance into Germany (especially if you play with that you can save oil).

In the end of turn you do things in this order.
1) Production
2) Conquest
3) Factory Destruction (remember that a corps must be in supply to destroy a factory and can only destroy a blue factory)

Let me give 2 examples why the AI should avoid advancing into Germany.

Example 1:
1) A Polish unit captures Berlin and is in supply from Poznan. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factories in Berlin but make up for the factory production lost with higher production multiple. (Germanys production goes form 17 to 20 gaining 3 build points and may save some oil for the factories not producing).
2) Poland survies to fight on.
3) No factory is destroyed by the Polish unit in Berlin because all factories in Berlin are red in MWIF.

Example 2:
1) A Polish unit captures another city with a blue factory (ex. Stettin) and is in supply from Poznan. Germany captures Lodz and Warsaw. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factory in Stettin but gains more production with the higher production multiple (Prod goes from 17 to 22 (not counting the polish factory) and saves some extra oil).
2) Poland is conquered and the polish unit in Stettin is removed.
3) No factory is destroyed.

In the above example Germany could perhaps set the Polish unit in Stettin out of supply if he feared he could not conquer Poland during this turn. With the option of saving oil Germany lose little (just delayed production) with a unit out of supply in Stettin.

-Orm

is it a bug that there are 3 red factories in berlin ..... it looks wrong

[composer99]

No, in tabletop WIF:FE all the factories in Berlin are red.
 
But yes, it means they can't be blown up by the Poles. Only strategic bombardment can do for them.

[michaelbaldur]

that is just wrong

germany has always had 19 factories ...13 blue and 6 red .... when have it changed to 11 blue and 8 red ....???

...and I think that the rules said that there can only be 1 red factories in each hex

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

that is just wrong

germany has always had 19 factories ...13 blue and 6 red .... when have it changed to 11 blue and 8 red ....???

...and I think that the rules said that there can only be 1 red factories in each hex

All factories from Berlin are red since 2004.

[peskpesk]

I’m thinking about a rule for the Polish planes setup, here is a start to the discussion going.

Other factor to include could be if the Polish planes are fight (the number of GE fighter), the risk of ground strikes during a forward setup etc, etc.


Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

IF USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse one OR
USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse two AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one

THEN

Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

IF The Polish planes is in Eastern Poland AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one AND
At least one of A OR B below

A)
Germany has a two organized LandUnit AND
They are can each reach a different Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
They are not blocked by ZOC AND
They are in supply or can be put in supply

B)
Germany has a organized LandUnit AND
It can each reach a t Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
It’ not blocked by ZOC AND
It’sin supply or can be put in supply

THEN

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

--Forward- Or Rearsetup for Polish planes
* Forward setup is considered when A or B

A) Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase
B) Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before polish planes are rebased

[Plainian]

ORIGINAL: composer99

No, in tabletop WIF:FE all the factories in Berlin are red.

But yes, it means they can't be blown up by the Poles. Only strategic bombardment can do for them.

Well the allied bombers will have to use Tallboys or something as it looks like the factories are underground? I can't see any factories in Berlin in Peskpesk's screenshots? Only a resource which looks like it should be in the hex to the east?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian
Well the allied bombers will have to use Tallboys or something as it looks like the factories are underground? I can't see any factories in Berlin in Peskpesk's screenshots? Only a resource which looks like it should be in the hex to the east?

This hex is not Berlin. Berlin is 1 hex to the west.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

I’m thinking about a rule for the Polish planes setup, here is a start to the discussion going.

Other factor to include could be if the Polish planes are fight (the number of GE fighter), the risk of ground strikes during a forward setup etc, etc.


Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

IF USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse one OR
USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse two AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one

THEN

Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

IF The Polish planes is in Eastern Poland AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one AND
At least one of A OR B below

A)
Germany has a two organized LandUnit AND
They are can each reach a different Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
They are not blocked by ZOC AND
They are in supply or can be put in supply

B)
Germany has a organized LandUnit AND
It can each reach a t Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
It’ not blocked by ZOC AND
It’sin supply or can be put in supply

THEN

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

--Forward- Or Rearsetup for Polish planes
* Forward setup is considered when A or B

A) Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase
B) Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before polish planes are rebased

Your impulse numbers are slightly off. The Axis moves during the odd impulses and the Allies during the even. The USSR can only occupy eastern Poland on even impulses.

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

I’m thinking about a rule for the Polish planes setup, here is a start to the discussion going.

Other factor to include could be if the Polish planes are fight (the number of GE fighter), the risk of ground strikes during a forward setup etc, etc.


Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

IF USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse one OR
USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse two AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one

THEN

Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

IF The Polish planes is in Eastern Poland AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one AND
At least one of A OR B below

A)
Germany has a two organized LandUnit AND
They are can each reach a different Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
They are not blocked by ZOC AND
They are in supply or can be put in supply

B)
Germany has a organized LandUnit AND
It can each reach a t Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
It’ not blocked by ZOC AND
It’sin supply or can be put in supply

THEN

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

--Forward- Or Rearsetup for Polish planes
* Forward setup is considered when A or B

A) Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase
B) Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before polish planes are rebased

Your impulse numbers are slightly off. The Axis moves during the odd impulses and the Allies during the even. The USSR can only occupy eastern Poland on even impulses.

I intended to write allied before impulse in the text.

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Poland setup AI

Very nice work on all those minor-setups, peskpesk - seems like you have taken pretty much all possible variants into consideration for each and every minor country - impressive!

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Very nice work on all those minor-setups, peskpesk - seems like you have taken pretty much all possible variants into consideration for each and every minor country - impressive!

Peskpesk has indeed made a great work on all these minor setups. He might also have included all realistic variants for each country. I do not think I can come up with any new variant at the moment.

However. Poland is the minor country which setup will be used most. It is in Polands (along with Belgium) setup that flaws will be exploited most. Therefore it would be good if as many as possible look over the AI logic and help improve it.

It would also be nice if anyone could come up with more variations.

-Orm

[Dave3L]

Also, keep in mind that an empty Konigsberg can be ZoC'ed by a corps in Danzig, which would place all of the East Prussia units OoS.  That might only be an annoyance, but if Germany sets up a weaker than normal Northern Army, you could really throw a wrench in the works by doing that.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Dave3L

Also, keep in mind that an empty Konigsberg can be ZoC'ed by a corps in Danzig, which would place all of the East Prussia units OoS.  That might only be an annoyance, but if Germany sets up a weaker than normal Northern Army, you could really throw a wrench in the works by doing that.

It can be a handy trick but East Prussia can be in supply anyway. They can get seasupply via the port in Memel´(depending on optional rules and cp placement). Depending on unit and placement in Germany they might even be able to link up with supply from a HQ that was placed in Germany.

I have a few times set up so the poles can ZOC into a empty Koningsberg. Then move with units from Germany (and HQ) so I could use the units in Prussia as I wanted even when they started OOS.

With that said I think it should be included in some setups with the AI script checking for overseas supply and so on.

-Orm

[Incy]

There's a reserve in koenigsberg, I belive.