Patton vs MacArthur

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Famous commanders indeed. Was Patton a better commander than MacArthur?

Sorry my friend, but this calls for personal opions. Opions are like rear ends. Everybody has at least one, and everybodies stinks but yours! [:D]

[Anthropoid]

IMHO: the _Allies_ beat the Nazis. True, they were strictly friends of convenience not true friends, but that is the reality, the Allies did it. Germany had to fight on multiple fronts against multiple opponents. The exact details of how she lost given these realities are historical details, not an engineering diagram or a road network in which alternate networks or pathways can be compared mathematically.
 
Take away _ANY_ element of historical reality and _all_ bets are off (or at least they should be if you are reasonable-minded). History is contingent. The death of a single individual can conceivably shift the trajectory of historical events dramatically. Even meteorological 'miracles' (the anomalous powerful westerly gales that trashed so much of the 1588 Spanish Armada off the coast of Scotland and Ireland) can change the trajectory of history.
 
Lets just be thankful that Nazism and Japanese fascism were defeated, and hope that totalitarianism and inhumane social orders everywhere are waning and will eventually fade out completely. It would be nice if our human descendants get to live in a Star Trek-esque Earth that is about as close to a utopia as you can realistically imagine.

[Terminus]

[8|] The point is, these threads ALWAYS and without exception end up like this. They always have, from far before both Historiker and Japan showed up here.

It's completely irrelevant what the subject is, if you start a "Was A better than B?" thread, it goes down the same tedious tunnel. No discussion, only more and more odious posts on both sides, until BOOM, it dies a deserved death.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

So despite showing arguments for my thesis, no one is willed to discuss. All that comes is: "You don't know what you'r talking about" "Troll" "Anti-Amercian". Is my fault that I have the same opinion here as the commonly hated Japan?

Is that your style of discussion? Never argue, just insult und a little bit of Godwin's law (pasternakski)?
Well, in this case its obviously better to react like Terminus and never hope for a discussion if the US boys don't agree...

Arguments and discussions fall under the category of debate. Debate , if sincere and done in an intelligent fashion is always good. When comments become personal, the debate has ended, and personal attacks have started. Personal attacks never belong here. So please, debate away, make your best argument, and lets have a discussion. But there is absolutely no need to get personal, or to espouse bigotry. Let's keep it a clean debate. [:)]

[Historiker]

Russia's massive land army was needed to win the war, but so was the US's massive production capacity. Without both of these, Germany would have won a settled peace with the west after it had first crushed Russia.

I agree with you - and never did something else. Maybe I wasn't able to express it this way.
I never doubted that a Russia without ANY help from the allies could win the war - especially not with that leadership and the known "competence" of its leaders (which were of course massivly hindered by their political leadership. Stalin ordered full scale counterattacks after he was told that Geramny attacked - and destroyed most important forces...)
The numbers of Leand Lease help from the US to Russia are most impressive. IIRC, there were over 1000 locomotives allone so I doubt russia has produced any (significant numbers) in the war. Without all the food, clothing, ressources and logistic material, it would've looked very different.

But: My opinion is, that Operation Overlord wasn't needed to win the war. With the allied airforce, the need for garrisions in Norway, France and the Balkan, Russia can beat Germany allone - with US meterial help, of course! But if you look at what I've written, you see that the russians allone were already able to destroy all of germanys offensive capacity until 1944. Of course, meanwhile several tank divisions were sent into the west to counter the expected invasion.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

[8|] The point is, these threads ALWAYS and without exception end up like this. They always have, from far before both Historiker and Japan showed up here.

It's completely irrelevant what the subject is, if you start a "Was A better than B?" thread, it goes down the same tedious tunnel. No discussion, only more and more odious posts on both sides, until BOOM, it dies a deserved death.

but why?
I've seen several other forums where such discussions were possible without anybody insulting the other.
In difference to here, the useres of these forums where most likely younger and should be even less able to discuss. Moreover, the useres here show an amazing competence most often.

So why does this happen here while such threads can live to everybodys joy somewhere else?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Debate , if sincere and done in an intelligent fashion is always good.

In its place. This ain't it, old pal.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Historiker

So despite showing arguments for my thesis, no one is willed to discuss. All that comes is: "You don't know what you'r talking about" "Troll" "Anti-Amercian". Is my fault that I have the same opinion here as the commonly hated Japan?

Is that your style of discussion? Never argue, just insult und a little bit of Godwin's law (pasternakski)?
Well, in this case its obviously better to react like Terminus and never hope for a discussion if the US boys don't agree...

Arguments and discussions fall under the category of debate. Debate , if sincere and done in an intelligent fashion is always good. When comments become personal, the debate has ended, and personal attacks have started. Personal attacks never belong here. So please, debate away, make your best argument, and lets have a discussion. But there is absolutely no need to get personal, or to espouse bigotry. Let's keep it a clean debate. [:)]

So tell me where I was personal, where I ended the debate!
I feel that this happend to me and feel innocnet. But this isn't my mother language so I may do mistakes - which I'm willed to learn from!

[marky]

From what i read, Mac also advocated disbanding the Marine Corps into his own army. something the Marines have not forgotten or forgiven.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Historiker
But: My opinion is, that Operation Overlord wasn't needed to win the war. With the allied airforce, the need for garrisions in Norway, France and the Balkan, Russia can beat Germany allone - with US meterial help, of course! But if you look at what I've written, you see that the russians allone were already able to destroy all of germanys offensive capacity until 1944. Of course, meanwhile several tank divisions were sent into the west to counter the expected invasion.

Without the threat of an allied invasion in France, Germany could have easily sent 20-30 (or more) of the 70 or so divisions it had in the west to the Russian front. That would have made a significant difference in the power struggle on the ground there.

By mid to late 1944, Russia's manpower pools were drying up because of the way its high command wasted lives. So there is a case to be made that Russia would have failed on its own. Stalin was very insistent that the allies open the second front because of the drain the war was having on his military. I doubt he'd have demanded it so insistently if it was a foregone conclusion as you seem to imply.

Jim

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
So , How about those Dodgers? [:D]

Yeh. I like 'em better without the dreadlocked druggie.

Let's celebrate the pennant at Das Burgerbraukeller with a "Sexiest Thighs in Wet Lederhosen" contest.

[Anthropoid]

But: My opinion is, that Operation Overlord wasn't needed to win the war. With the allied airforce, the need for garrisions in Norway, France and the Balkan, Russia can beat Germany allone -

Now granted that is an interesting thesis, though I don't have the knowledge to judge if it has any real curbside merits. As a loyal "Yank" I wouldn't be bashful about contemplating that 1944 Western campaign was in part calculated by the Anglo-leaders as a way to insure that at least some of Western Europe did not fall under Soviet hegemony.

I would think the real insights to a question like this would be to focus in on the various conferences that involved the three big guys (and their representatives) during those last few years. What did they say to each other? What did they lie about? What did they withhold information about? What did they ask/cajole/impugn one another to do/not do?

I seem to recall that Stalin in at the 1941 Moscow Conference was pretty vociferous in his pleas/demands for the allies to 'get into the war' for real on the West. That right there suggests that he was not feeling so confident (at least in '42 or mid '43) that he could take Germany on his own. Why else would he push the allies to get boots on the ground in France, unless he was seriously concerned that he might not achieve a suitable outcome without that added pressure?

ADDIT: cannot seem to find anything about that first 1941 Moscow Conference, but here is quote from the wiki page on the Teheran Conference that makes my point

The “Big Three” spent days wrangling about when Operation Overlord should take place, who should command it, and where operations should begin.

Roosevelt gave Stalin a pledge that he had been waiting for since June 1941: that the British and the Americans would open a second front in France in the spring of 1944. Churchill up to this point had been seeking a joint United Kingdom, United States and Commonwealth forces initiative through the Mediterranean that would have secured British interests in the Middle East and India. Roosevelt however was determined to break up the British Empire, and thus the concessions to Stalin served this purpose. The Soviet Union requested backup troops in Western Europe, and it was agreed that these troops would arrive in the spring of 1944. It was also agreed that the Soviet Union would enter the war against Japan once Nazi Germany was defeated.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Historiker
I've seen several other forums

Try staying on topic. The simple question posited here had to do with the relative command abilities of Patton and MacArthur. You jumped in with a load of ignorant gibberish about how the Western allies were irrelevant to the outcome of the war. Don't try to hide behind the fact that English is not your primary language. You have a chauvinistic agenda to advance, and you did it purposefully here in a context where it does not belong.

So, let's get back to warGAMES and the enjoyment they bring. Go be insultingly weird somewhere else.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Historiker

So despite showing arguments for my thesis, no one is willed to discuss. All that comes is: "You don't know what you'r talking about" "Troll" "Anti-Amercian". Is my fault that I have the same opinion here as the commonly hated Japan?

Is that your style of discussion? Never argue, just insult und a little bit of Godwin's law (pasternakski)?
Well, in this case its obviously better to react like Terminus and never hope for a discussion if the US boys don't agree...

Arguments and discussions fall under the category of debate. Debate , if sincere and done in an intelligent fashion is always good. When comments become personal, the debate has ended, and personal attacks have started. Personal attacks never belong here. So please, debate away, make your best argument, and lets have a discussion. But there is absolutely no need to get personal, or to espouse bigotry. Let's keep it a clean debate. [:)]

So tell me where I was personal, where I ended the debate!
I feel that this happend to me and feel innocnet. But this isn't my mother language so I may do mistakes - which I'm willed to learn from!

which seems to be better concerning the aggressiveness and ignorance of some posters


There my friend. I recognize that english is not your 1st language (but I can certainly promise you , your English is far better than my German). In the English language, calling someone "ignorant" is an extreme insult. I would imagine that it probably is in German too.

One word of advice, if you wish to avoid giving offense , in any language. Seperate the "doer" from the "deed". [:)]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
So , How about those Dodgers? [:D]

Yeh. I like 'em better without the dreadlocked druggie.

Let's celebrate the pennant at Das Burgerbraukeller with a "Sexiest Thighs in Wet Lederhosen" contest.

Errrr....sure...I guess, I think. (As usual Pas, I have no idea what you are talking about, but as always, I enjoy the conversation! )[:D]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Now granted that is an interesting thesis,

Stop it! You purport to be a sophisticated, intelligent person, yet you weigh in on these forums like the carcass of a dead brontosaurus. This is supposed to be about wargames and fun. All you waddle in with is "Blah, blah, blah."

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: marky

From what i read, Mac also advocated disbanding the Marine Corps into his own army. something the Marines have not forgotten or forgiven.

They are big boys. They weren't all that happy with Truman for that "police" crack either. The USMC will out live them, and us all.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Now granted that is an interesting thesis,

Stop it! You purport to be a sophisticated, intelligent person, yet you weigh in on these forums like the carcass of a dead brontosaurus. This is supposed to be about wargames and fun. All you waddle in with is "Blah, blah, blah."

???? thought I .[:D]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
(As usual Pas, I have no idea what you are talking about, but as always, I enjoy the conversation! )[:D]

What - you don't recognize the name of Onkel Adolf's favorite Munich bierstube? Sorry, bud, didn't mean to putsh you on the defensive...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
(As usual Pas, I have no idea what you are talking about, but as always, I enjoy the conversation! )[:D]

What - you don't recognize the name of Onkel Adolf's favorite Munich bierstube? Sorry, bud, didn't mean to putsh you on the defensive...

Nien....I mean no! ARGGGGGG!!!!!!!!! Puns! I hate puns!!!! [:D]