Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

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Kull
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

CAVEAT: The following is a test, not part of the ongoing AAR

Midget Sub Test - Damage in Shallow Hexes versus Ocean Hexes #3

I'll spare you the blow-by-blow screenshots, but it's worth examining the damage progression after 5 hexes. Here's Ha-29, gamely plugging on through the vast swells two hexes north of Adak. Damage appears to be remarkably low - only 20 sys which is actually one less than Ha-34 incurred during her 5-hex voyage to Adak (all through the shallows) early in the AAR. Hmmm.


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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

CAVEAT: The following is a test, not part of the ongoing AAR

Midget Sub Test - Damage in Shallow Hexes versus Ocean Hexes #4

And here we have Ha-31. Clearly they must have accidentally dropped a burning can of sterno through the conning tower during one of the seabird barbecues, as their sys damage is at 34. Almost double that of Ha-29. Theory beginning to take on a little water here....

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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

CAVEAT: The following is a test, not part of the ongoing AAR

Midget Sub Test - Damage in Shallow Hexes versus Ocean Hexes #5

Theory not the only thing taking on water. Ha-31 reaches Hex 6, but the next turn as it tries to reach Hex 7 she has to be abandoned and sinks. No survivors.

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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by jwilkerson »

You need gas for those canoes ... hoisting the sails on a midget makes them more likely to tip over and glug, glug, glug ... [:D]
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Kull
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

CAVEAT: The following is a test, not part of the ongoing AAR

Midget Sub Test - Damage in Shallow Hexes versus Ocean Hexes #6

And ultimately the same fate befalls Ha-29. One turn after Ha-31 was abandoned, the message arrives that Ha-29 has also gone down. The indicated hex is 9 distant from Kiska, but that may be FOW as her last known position was in Hex 7. Seems likely she reached Hex 8 and then sank. So what have we learned?

1) First and foremost, that traversing the shallows offers no additional safety to midget subs - and in fact it could be more dangerous than the open ocean. (Local Yokel = 1, Kull = 0)

2) Midget Subs sink when they accrue System Damage greater than 50. Now I can't prove that 50 is the magic number, but here's the progression. Damage incurred per hex traveled (I have screen shots or save games for all of these):

Hex 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Ha-29 (O) 0 7 11 20 31 45 X
Ha-31 (S) 0 10 18 34 47 X

As semi-confirmation of the "50 Sys = Sunk Midget" theory, I sent Ha-32 onward from Adak. She started with 40 Sys, moved once with damage rising to 44, and then sank after moving on the next turn.

OK. I think the interlude is over, and it's time to return to our regularly scheduled AAR. Hopefully this digression wasn't too esoteric and/or boring!


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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by thegreatwent »

Nope good stuff[:)]
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Erik Rutins »

Thanks for taking the time to respond. As noted in the post above, this isn't a huge issue for the Human player, and I can definitely understand imposing a penalty on randomly yanking units in and out of Pierside Repair mode. The problem comes when there is no "higher level" of repair (ala "Shipyard"). At this point the repair is as complete as it will ever be - in this port - and yet the unit will not be automatically placed in readiness, as is done with a unit that has finished all repairs. There doesn't seem to be a logical reason why one has the penalty and the other does not. So if a solution could be coded, one hopes it would be.

Philosophically, we can't know if the player is about to send an AR or ARD to that location, so we just leave the decision in the player's hands. It's a design choice and I can see both sides. I think adding an auto-move to readiness if there is no mode better than Pierside should go on the wish list though, I can see that being more useful in the majority of cases than leaving it as it is.
The concern (and admittedly I could be completely off base), is will the AI place a unit into a Repair Mode that it cannot automatically extricate itself from? In the example above, if the AI placed a sub into Pierside Repair mode, the code would never remove it (unless the code is different for AI control than it is for Human control).

Not a problem at all. The AI uses a hybridized repair mode (similar to original WITP) to avoid pitfalls like that.

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Kull
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Thanks for taking the time to respond. As noted in the post above, this isn't a huge issue for the Human player, and I can definitely understand imposing a penalty on randomly yanking units in and out of Pierside Repair mode. The problem comes when there is no "higher level" of repair (ala "Shipyard"). At this point the repair is as complete as it will ever be - in this port - and yet the unit will not be automatically placed in readiness, as is done with a unit that has finished all repairs. There doesn't seem to be a logical reason why one has the penalty and the other does not. So if a solution could be coded, one hopes it would be.

Philosophically, we can't know if the player is about to send an AR or ARD to that location, so we just leave the decision in the player's hands. It's a design choice and I can see both sides. I think adding an auto-move to readiness if there is no mode better than Pierside should go on the wish list though, I can see that being more useful in the majority of cases than leaving it as it is.

Excellent. Couldn't ask for more.
The concern (and admittedly I could be completely off base), is will the AI place a unit into a Repair Mode that it cannot automatically extricate itself from? In the example above, if the AI placed a sub into Pierside Repair mode, the code would never remove it (unless the code is different for AI control than it is for Human control).

Not a problem at all. The AI uses a hybridized repair mode (similar to original WITP) to avoid pitfalls like that.

Good to hear. I'm just bouncing thoughts off the wall, and am happy to learn you guys were way out front on this. Not surprising!
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

CAVEAT: The following is a test, not part of the ongoing AAR

Submarine Refueling Test - Can an AS Refuel a Submarine at Sea?

OK, one final test result to present before resuming the AAR. This was originally posted in the "AE Naval and OOB Issues" thread, when Mynok suggested that perhaps Subs could be replenished by an AS, the Submarine Tender which is otherwise used in this scenario to ensure that submarines are rearmed when they return to port. (Like that's a problem - every sub that fired a torpedo has been sunk.) [;)] Anyway, the conclusion from the various Submarine Refueling tests is clear. If you want to refuel a sub, send it to a Port!

ORIGINAL: Kull
ORIGINAL: Mynok

Have you tried refueling it with an AS?


Hmmm. No, but I'll run that test shortly. FWIW, the AS will only go into a "Support" TF, not a "Replenishment", but it will load fuel so we'll see what comes of that.


I used an earlier Save Game to see if the "Support" TF containing an AS (which in turn was carrying 370 Fuel) would refuel the Sub, and the answer is "No". I also tested to see if an AS could be coaxed into a Replenishment TF, and the answer to that was also "No".


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Kull
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

CAVEAT: The following is a test, not part of the ongoing AAR

Submarine Aircraft Capacity - How many Glens can you fit into a Volkswagen....errr....Submarine?

Honest to God, this is the Final Test of the Interlude period. I swear! Yeah? So what if one hand is behind my back? And no, I won't hold both hands out where you can see 'em and make that swear again! Anyway, technically this is right after the interlude since I-9 arrived in port to refuel, and that's when when I noticed something odd. You can add reserve aircraft to a Sub-borne Chutai. In fact, I-9 is now out at sea, carrying FOUR Glens! And the only reason there aren't more is there aren't any left in the pool. So here's a few questions:

Historically, how many Glens could be crated up and carried aboard an IJN sub? Four aircraft aboard a submarine sounds a bit excessive. Is this something that can be fixed, assuming it's non-historical? Or is this just the Devs way of saying, "Go ahead moron, load your entire pool of Glen's aboard a single sub, even though you can't fly more than one at a time. And better hope that sub doesn't run into any ASW!"


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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

CAVEAT: The following is a test, not part of the ongoing AAR

Long Distance Betties - How to Kick TF Butt with Bombs

This is technically not part of the AAR since it happened during the turn I was testing the Glen-carrying capacity of I-9. Anyway.

All you JFB's kinda down at the mouth because your early war uber-air isn't quite as effective as it used to be? After all, what good are Betties when it comes to attacking TFs with bombs instead of torpedoes. Right? Waste of time, right? Here's a clue and then I'll say no more on the subject (Elevation):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Attu Island at 155,49 (Betties are flying in from Paramushiro, a distance of 19 hexes)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud (This probably helped)

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet. (Wrong. More like 3000 feet.)
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 7 damaged

Allied Ships
xAP Perida, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Gansevoort, Bomb hits 1
APA Doyen
xAP Branch, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
51 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 3000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg AP Bomb, 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

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Tophat1815
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Tophat1815 »


 My Betty's performed well also,as long as weather and range permitted. Attu is really the only island in range. Like your tests by the way. I'd have sent an SST to transport mini-sub and attack Dutch harbor,but thats me.[;)]
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Kull
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Tophat1812

My Betty's performed well also,as long as weather and range permitted. Attu is really the only island in range. Like your tests by the way. I'd have sent an SST to transport mini-sub and attack Dutch harbor,but thats me.[;)]

Unfortunately there aren't any SSTs in the Aleutians scenario, which is why I was doing it the hard way. Betties at super-low altitude for ALL Naval attacks just makes sense. Sure, AA can be an issue, but if you attack from too high up all the bombs will miss. And if they run into CAP unescorted, well, elevation won't matter much - they're zippos anyway.
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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

For the first few days after the "interlude", nothing much happened aside from the daily bombing runs against Attu, probably because there were only 2 subs left to patrol the "Death Box". But by May 28th, three more had returned from refueling and/or repair, and sure enough the action quickly resumed.

First under the gun was I-34. She didn't attack, but a Transport TF still found her and took a LOT of shots. Miraculously she suffered no penetrating hits, but the 12 rattles still delivered 31 points of damage (she had zero damage at the start of the turn). Take a look those numbers, boys and girls. That is the result of a "Best Case" evasion against a moderate size non-ASW TF in mid-1943. Ughh. On the other hand, even though the TF is fairly small, it is VERY well escorted (roughly 3-1 escorts-to-transports). Kudos to the AI for being so protective, but is it possible that some of the extreme anti-sub results we're seeing in the Aleutians scenario might be due to an overabundance of Escorts?

As an aside, I wondered if the Commander's skills helped the sub escape, but his numbers are pretty unremarkable.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 28, 43
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ASW attack near Dutch Harbor at 167,50

Japanese Ships
SS I-34, hits 12

Allied Ships
DMS Perry
APA Heywood
LSI(M) Prince Henry
DD Morris
DD Coghlan
KV Dawson
DM Pruitt

DD Morris fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Coghlan attacking submerged sub ....
KV Dawson fails to find sub and abandons search
DM Pruitt attacking submerged sub ....
DD Morris attacking submerged sub ....
DD Coghlan fails to find sub and abandons search
DM Pruitt fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Morris fails to find sub and abandons search
DM Pruitt fails to find sub, continues to search...
DM Pruitt fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

Later the same day, it was I-35's turn in the barrel, and she didn't fare quite as well. Newly arrived from a refueling run, this sub also failed to launch an attack, yet a small, 2-DD ASW TF tracked her down and put her through the wringer - 12 rattles and a hull penetration. This rung her up for 90 points of total damage (she started the turn with 9). What's really interesting is the Patrol Algorithm doesn't see this as "enough" to necessitate a return-to-port. If this were a "real" game, I'd immediately turn her around and send her packing straight for home. But morbid curiousity leaves me wondering how long she'll stick it out, so on station I-35 remains! As something of a test, I'm going to boost her speed up to "Full" in the hopes that the incremental accrual of speed-related damage will finally take her past the "return-to-port magic number" (so we can see roughly where it is).

We also see that this Commander's skills aren't significantly different from those of the luckier skipper of I-34.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 28, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Dutch Harbor at 166,50

Japanese Ships
SS I-35, hits 13

Allied Ships
DD MacDonough
DD Balch

DD MacDonough fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Balch fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD MacDonough fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Balch fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD MacDonough attacking submerged sub ....
DD Balch attacking submerged sub ....
DD MacDonough fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Balch attacking submerged sub ....
Escort abandons search for sub

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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

It's been roughly four days (seems MUCH longer!) since I-24 holed up in Attu and initiated pierside Repairs following a devastating ASW attack. At that time her damage was 48 sys, 76 flt, and 3 eng. And as you can see from the picture, "progressive flooding" is alive and well in AE. My first mistake was leaving a heavily damaged sub in a size-2 Port, as that alone (i.e. no assist from ARs or AEs) is clearly too small to reverse this level of damage and allow for transit to a bigger Port. The second problem was putting it in "Pierside" repair mode. It would now take three days to return to "Readiness" mode (which is necessary in order to form a TF and leave port), and by then it will probably be too late.

The only thing left is to race in my AE from Paramushiro in the hope it can get there in time to magically alter the otherwise inevitable. BTW, the reason repair priority is set to "Normal" is that "High" results in 185 days, while "Critical" is 183. We'll ignore the fact that displaying ANY number of days here gives the player the mistaken impression that repair is even possible! [:(]


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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

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ORIGINAL: Kull

But morbid curiousity leaves me wondering how long she'll stick it out, so on station I-35 remains! As something of a test, I'm going to boost her speed up to "Full" in the hopes that the incremental accrual of speed-related damage will finally take her past the "return-to-port magic number" (so we can see roughly where it is).

And we have an answer! After one day at Full speed, damage grew to 50 sys (now in the red), 43 flt, and 9 eng (total of 102), but I-35 remained on Patrol. One day after that she was at 111 total (see below) and the "return-to-base" algorithm had kicked in. So it's unclear what the magic number is exactly - total points somewhere north of 102 or any single value greater than 50 - but Subs need a lot of damage before the code automatically sends them home from patrol.


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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

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ORIGINAL: Kull

BTW, the reason repair priority is set to "Normal" is that "High" results in 185 days, while "Critical" is 183. We'll ignore the fact that displaying ANY number of days here gives the player the mistaken impression that repair is even possible! [:(]

File this next discovery under the heading, "even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then." While flipping through the repair priorities discussed above, my last selection was "Critical" - and in my haste to tab out of the game and report that value back to the AAR, I forgot to go back and reset it to "Normal". Which is clearly the preferred setting based on fewer "days-to-repair". On that basis, it's obviously better, right? Wrong. [:o]

After one day in "Critical" mode, the float damage dropped from 83 to 82, and the day after that it was down to 81! And the number of "Days" is showing 132. So what this probably means is that "Days to Repair" is not a true indicator of which priority is actually better. Oddly enough, this seems to prove that "Critical" is actually a much better repair mode than "Normal"! Who would ever have guessed? (The answer? Not me!!) Doh. [8|]


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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

And on the last day of May, three more IJN subs have arrived and I-175 has finished repairing all of its "no-fuel-moves-damage. So four new Sub TFs are off to the Death Box as the scenario enters its last two weeks.

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RE: Glug, glug, glug in the Aleutians

Post by Kull »

To illustrate some of the vagaries of Search, here's a look at the Death Box zone on the morning of May 31, 1943. Emilys from Paramushiro, Jakes from Attu, and three Glens are all searching this zone (the LBA both utlizing very narrow search arcs). But aside from a few IJN subs making their rounds, it's "all quiet on the Western Front".


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