Pz-VIe Turret

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 12:50 am

A sniper shot with its rifle and killed a KV? That ain't supposed to happen...At what range? ITs possible it could hit and tehcrew bail (if they were VERY poor) but it is supposedly impossible for small arms calss weapons to penetrate any armor in the game.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 1:02 am

Just seen it happen on battle one of my campaign, yesterday. They close-assaulted it with their daring rifle. They may had even hit the front turret, as I made sure and turned the turret that way before going forward one hex. It wasn't a cheap bailout either, the blooming thing was all-out destroyed.

[This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 07-12-2000).]

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 1:06 am

Ah in close assault ... PHEW...there is a 1% chance per man in a unit that they will find a way

It just happens to list the weapon. Shot the driver through the vision slit and the thing swerved off the road and tipped over or something...Thanks!

JJU57 · Post by **JJU57** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 1:12 am

I think the 1% chance is too high, especially without the necessary weapons. At your rate 1 out of 100 tanks that passed the sniper would be killed. Is there anyway to reduce that figure?

Also does this mean that a 2 man crew had a 2% chance or just two 1% chances?

Jon Grasham · Post by **Jon Grasham** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 2:51 am

hehe, nice that there IS that chance for those times when your SOL. Also gives some funny things to think about. The sniper who blew the tank up by beating it with his rifle butt, which caused a small spark, which landed in some fuel the crew had carelessly spilt back in the supply area, the flames made it inside, and boom!

Fabio Prado · Post by **Fabio Prado** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 3:08 am

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
Thanks Fabio! The 130 APDS penetration at 30 degrees and 500 yards, agrees favorably with the 170-ish value in the game.

I guess I mistook the deflected APCBC shot, been a while since I read that book.

Is there a range for 6# APDS or 17lber or other shell that gives the estimated range for penetration?

AT least we know that at 1200 yards the thing is fairly proof against 6# APDS

Yes, for the 17 pounder.
"Turret Mantlet at 40 degrees - 17 pounder APDS

Strikes on this somewhat restricted target produced one fair hit which completely defeated the mantlet at 3482 ft/s. Round 43, passing through a thickened section of the casting and breaking up on the right side gun recoil cylinder casing. Further shooting was not possible owing to lack of space (too many rounds had been fired at this mantlet). It seems, however, that defeat would be likely up to a range of 1500 yards."

FAP

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Fabio Prado fprado@fprado.com
Webmaster - The ARMOR Site!

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 3:13 am

Well its actually less than 1% because in order to get to the 1% a number checks are made for the sniper and the target.

For some of these things one must remember its a game and if you make chances too small then why bother?

History books are full of instances of weird things happening. Who knows what the real chances are? We assumed it was proportional to the number of men. The assumption being that troops often had a grenade or stick of C4 or something squirreled away, or maybe they found one on a nearby dead enemy?

Adapt, Improvise, Overcome

Scipio Africanus · Post by **Scipio Africanus** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 10:58 am

I have a question. As everyone seems very concerned that US ordnance cannot penetrate the front turret of the Tiger I (in theory, of course, this very thing has happened to me courtesy of APCR), was it actually that easy? In fact, were there any attested front turret Tiger I kills by US guns smaller than the 90mm L50?

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Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus

JJU57 · Post by **JJU57** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 6:16 pm

In playing Wild Bill's scenario 100 I had 10 Shermans going against a lone Tiger. I finally destroyed it after losing 7 tanks and one bailed crew. This seems about right to me.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 6:27 pm

The thing that worried me about the sniper maniac, was that I'm under the belief that the Finn was highly experienced, while the KVI was not, and that this disparency alone made the assault actually very likely to do just what it did, without the armor being taken into consideration. BTW, for the snipr to have shot someonoe in the slit, the sniper would have to be not around the side of the tank, but the front. I would assume that there would be some way of securing the hatch from the inside, so that opening the hatch was unlikely. Who knows maybe it can be accounted for by blowing the engine, that is, if the engine had no armor protection to withstand a sniper rifle blast (and I assume it does). I don't recall the oods on the attack "hitting", during the assault, but it seems as though I saw 24% flash across.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 7:51 pm

Again I simply offered a possibility for how the sniper (or any other inf unit) might take out a tank. There are any number of possibilities.

As I've siad before, for infantry units trying to account for ammo in "shots" is pretty contrived, resupply hapened all teh time and scrounging and "holding out" was common in all armies. FOr infantry think of your self as teh COmbat Team CO, You know what the supply guys say teh unit has for ammo, but you can figure that for dire situations, an AT mine, or extra bazooka round, or thrown mortar shell or whatever may be around.

THat is what that small percentage chance of assault is supposed to represent.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 8:33 pm

Or maybe even a pointed stick, right?

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Thu Jul 13, 2000 10:45 pm

Here's what i really want to know....

now that i currently hold responsibility for creating the board's longest thread.....do i get my very own Tiger?

Nikademus
-A King Tiger can give you a definate edge.....on I-5

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Fri Jul 14, 2000 12:02 am

Nikademus: Nah, perhaps we could give you some of the SS training, where you dig a trench for yourself before it runs you over. Like the sniper you could scrounge up whatever may be lying on the ground around you: AT mine, forgotten about mortar shell, beer bottle, nice box of chocolates. Perhaps that's what's killing those KVIs, those snipers find chocolates and the KVI driver's so overjoyed that he blew up the tank himself.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Fri Jul 14, 2000 12:40 am

Originally posted by Nikademus:
Here's what i really want to know....

now that i currently hold responsibility for creating the board's longest thread.....do i get my very own Tiger?

Nikademus
-A King Tiger can give you a definate edge.....on I-5

Yes you do, one complementary Tiger. Just send in 40,000 Reichmarks for postage and handling. Please allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Fri Jul 14, 2000 4:25 pm

and for my final test

i must stand pefectly at attention while Herr Wittmann shoots an apple off my head with a PzGr40 round.

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Fri Jul 21, 2000 2:02 am

I've found it, I've found it!!! I've found the picture I've been referring to. In case this picture doesn't last, which I'll put below, look on this link to the picture in the SW corner: http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/gallery.htm

Note the slab behind the mantlet, there's no open space there, and it's quite thick, but the mantlet is thicker.

[This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 07-20-2000).]

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Fri Jul 21, 2000 3:04 am

Well yes, nice pic of the turret. however that piece of armour is not very big, it's only a relatively narrow 'stripe'. 100 mm thick though if we assume that the guy at that modelling site has inspected that original workshop drawing correctly and represents it in here: http://www.tiger1e.com/turret/TurretShape5.html

for me it's beginning to look that firstly we have this mantlet, which is about 100mm thick. Except in the area surrounding the gun it looks like it's even thicker. Then we have these 'stripes' of armour, one of which is visible in your photo. Those are 100mm thick.

But if you remove the gun (darn I haven't found a turret photo with gun removed) there *will* be an opening. But as there will be a gun shield. Hmmm...a pic...okay, go to http://www.history.enjoy.ru/index.html select the 'soviet afv's' and 'T-34-85 development history'. The third pic from the top shows what I imagine the Tiger turret would like (roughly) if we remove the gun mantlet. There would still be the actual gun shield covering the hole.

this place: http://www.panzernet.com/panzerfile/tigerIcob.html has a pic of Tiger turret that has been cut open, shows a bit about the hole in front and what is filling it.

also the armour in focus has nice turret pics: http://www.armourinfocus.co.uk/tiger1/

Voriax