Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ?

[mmarquo]

"I find your response very patronizing to AI players.It has nothing to do with isolation.It has to do with time constraints and personal preference.

When someone pays good money for a game he should not be told the manner he enjoys playing it is a waste of time and to find a human player."


Wild,

I will not engage you in a flame war. Please reread my post: there was nothing derogatory, demeaning or otherwise negative written about how you or anyone else wishes to play this or any other game; I never insinuated that you would be wasting your time playing the AI. [&:] Mine were generic comments about what one might expect from the AI of this or any other commercial wargames and how the game developers might direct their energies.

Based upon the tester's responses I may be pleasantly surprised; I do have an open mind.

Marquo

[mmarquo]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I find it typical of how self centered people are these days to only think of themselves.

This game should have as good an AI as they possibly can build...

So what if some of you will PBEM and not the AI...many here will play the AI and not PBEM....so we will all have to wait to get a chance to play it.

Live at let live...I really don't think the game will suffer in any respect and will be a great product for you anti AI people aswell as those who want an AI.

Wodin,

Please refrain from reducing my general comments to your personal level; my generic comments about what to expect from the AI were not intended to create so much personal angst and do not merit such a personal vitriolic response. I do not judge you or how you wish to play; as you so eloquently remarked, "Live and let live."

Your reflection about "anti AI people" intruiged me: personally, I am not anti AI. My sentiments are the result of years of playing commercial wargames: none of these products have anything but the most rudimentary AI: this is not to impugne the developers but the simple reality of what one can do with programming tools, budgetary restraints and time. Most every game has multiple bugs which surface after release and the consumer is at the mercy of how dedicated the publisher is to supporting the product: some companies do this better than others. My personal preference is to by a bug free game rather than one with a "cheating AI." Of course bug free with a sophisitcated AI would be better but decades of experience has created a realistic skepticism about the AI.

Enjoy the games,

Marquo

[PyleDriver]

Marquo, I'm having a very tough time with the AI now. I'm a Jocky a very good jocky. My job is to run this horse so we can get the AI in order. I've been doing it on this game just short of 2 years. We have others that are doing that also... We have those that are bug collectors, data collectors, and research collectors, then we have Gary and Joel at the top....So "rudimentary AI", as I said before, after you get this game tell me your stories...Most companies would dump this on the market now it's that good, but we want to make it even better and clean it up further...

[mmarquo]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Marquo, I'm having a very tough time with the AI now. I'm a Jocky a very good jocky. My job is to run this horse so we can get the AI in order.

Can you be more specific: is the AI tactically proficient, good at attacking at good odds, strategically proficient - protects VPs, other? Why do you find it challenging? I am very interested in your observations [:)]
Marquo

[PyleDriver]

Marquo, I've started back on my 42 AAR posts, I refer you to them...

[wodin]

Marquo

Strange I hadn't really read you post...its was Wouger54 or something that i took umbridge with....wagging a finger because the developers make an AI....condesending aswell....

[goranw]

Hi!
Regarding the discussion about the necessity of a good AI.
(Meaningful playing against the AI or only play against a human.)
The AI contributes to and tests the historical flow by testing its patterns.
The patterns are dependant on historical research regarding the map,
forces,strengths, movement way-points and the time element
The more the AI succedes in doing so, the more it is a confirmation that also
PBEM play will be interesting and rewarding.

GoranW

[mmarquo]

ORIGINAL: goranw
The AI contributes to and tests the historical flow by testing its patterns.
The patterns are dependant on historical research regarding the map,
forces,strengths, movement way-points and the time element
The more the AI succedes in doing so, the more it is a confirmation that also
PBEM play will be interesting and rewarding.

Goranw,

It is perfectly plausible to have a great game with great mechanics and phenomenal PBEM potential with absolutely no AI and vice versa. The problem with your hypothesis is that that, (1) the AI can be invested with cheats that do not reflect logic but merely a handicap, (2) there is absolutely no guarantee that a human will ever do what the AI is scripted to do so success or fun in a PBEM game has no bearing on how well the AI cheats the human opponent, (3) with all due respect I do not beleive that you can scientifically draw the conclusion you advanced that AI prowess is somehow linked to fun and rewarding PBEM play. The rewards of PBEM play are basd on game mechanics, fair VP goals, no bugs and most of all: the relative abilities of the human opponents something the AI will never emulate, ever because the AI can not think, learn from experience, take chances not scripted in the program and further can't be unnerved, can't be rattled and can't whine and moan when it's ass is being pushed back to Berlin.

Marquo [:)]

[Joel Billings]

There is room for both PBEM and AI play in games, and we propose to provide both. For games of the length of War in the East, I think it would be much harder to test parts of the game if no AI was available as the physical time it would take to get far into a game with PBEM games only to test certain game systems (like production) over time would be prohibitive. So we see having an AI as good for both the AI customers (who we expect are between 2/3 and 90% of the customers), and the PBEM players because it ends up with a better game overall. One can argue the merits of focusing on either AI or PBEM play, but we're going to continue to provide both.

[knilli]

@Joel & Team : [&o]

[Wild]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

There is room for both PBEM and AI play in games, and we propose to provide both. For games of the length of War in the East, I think it would be much harder to test parts of the game if no AI was available as the physical time it would take to get far into a game with PBEM games only to test certain game systems (like production) over time would be prohibitive. So we see having an AI as good for both the AI customers (who we expect are between 2/3 and 90% of the customers), and the PBEM players because it ends up with a better game overall. One can argue the merits of focusing on either AI or PBEM play, but we're going to continue to provide both.

Thank you Joel. I really appreciate 2by3's dedication to making the best wargames possible.

[wodin]

A big thankyou from me aswell....if it didn't come with an AI I would not buy and it looks like I'd have missed out on one hell of a game.

So thanks [&o]

[Hard Sarge]

not really wanting to do a AAR type, and don't want to keep jumping into other's post, so since we talking/asking about AI, thought I would post my end turn here, show what I did, and then lets see what the AI does to respond

?

Turn 7 of Barbarossa, (July 31st)

the Fins have clear out and are on the border of the Guad (Lenin type)

no attack line kinds of hurts here

AGN is pushing, lots of Russian troops, but they need to fix the line, I kind of broke it up some

[Hard Sarge]

just in case, most of my reinforcements have been being sent to AGN

the bottom half of AGN, Vicki Lucky is the dividing line between the two Army Groups

that line is broken

[Hard Sarge]

to the south of Vicky is a simi strong flank, but...

got a pocket around the City of Smolsk

and a baby pocket to the side, wasn't really part of the plan, but make the Russian work to save some troops (not much work, but it takes away from things it needs to do

having to wait on my supply line, my Armor is just spinning it's wheels

[Hard Sarge]

just in case, all of the MP's my armor is showing, is from the HQ's not the Armor

just behind the Marsh, this may be the strongest part of the Russian line right now

(unless something fancy happens, the Armor will be turning north, not south from here)

[Hard Sarge]

now it gets interesting

little pockets, but, HARD to get to, if you get to them, those troops will be trapped, if you back off, you going to lose some good troops ?

plus, you got the Kiev Riverline to worry about, I am too close to it, to not defend it, I get across that line, with a easy bridgehead, it is going to hurt down the road

I think he is sitting on the Horns

[Hard Sarge]

if he tries to break in, that Hun Cav is the key, just wasn't enough fuel/supplies to get a solid pocket

south to Odessa

line is broke, but easy to fix, but how many troops can he move and keep his line in force

a lot of HARD choices need to be made, relieve the troops, back off, shift troops from the north, while Lenin is under pressuse

nothing another million men, or some mud wouldn't correct !

[Hard Sarge]

oh just in case, the Russian lost 29 Divs that week, which set up, what you see here

[Hard Sarge]

not shabby if you ask me

in the north, it did what it could, saved some troops and tried to reform the line