1943 Bob vs. Don AAR

[karonagames]

That's what we are going to test.

I like minutiae, and need something to do while we wait for a new version to test.

[Zovs]

As a direct opposite to Bob (which means this is going to be a good game/AAR) I already have a general idea of the minutiae and how it basically works or is suppose to work and so I let the game handle that and then I can worry about the bigger picture. What this means in game terms is that I turn the message level down, I just want to know how many casualties each side suffered (does it seem reasonable, i.e., open, across a river, city attack, mud, snow, Guards/SS etc.) and did I get the hex, if I did clear the hex can I move in more units to capture, do I need to capture it, how can I cut off those units, how can I achive historical results, can I do it better, if I did not get the hex should I attack again? I can also for the most part let the AI handle some of the minutiae for the air game. However, for the Soviets and the Army HQs I micromanage those a bit as well as some of the corps units themselves upon setup (i.e., the first few turns). You can if you desire turn the message level way up and see the point of artillery hitting units, then mortars and ATG and tank weapons and then MG and small arms, that is too much info for me.

I am more into the operational level of warfare, and the effectiveness and how to use it to your best advantage to attain your strategic goals, and then comparing that with actual historical results to see how I compare against them.

[ComradeP]

I eagerly anticipate all the grognard rage threads of which leaders are overrated in the game, those debates will be interesting and probably silly at the same time.

I'm also a micromanagement guy, by the way.

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

But at a cost of just 8 APs I can appoint Field Marshal Rommel.

You can now, but not in the final product. We are doing work on the leader database at the moment. It was decided about 2 months ago to remove leaders that never fought on the Eastern Front, so Rommel is going to go. We have also added additional leader fields that can limit how high a leader can go up the chain of command.

Of course, people can always use the editor to add additional leaders to scenarios.

[Flaviusx]

I wonder how this system will treat wonder boys like Vasilevsky and Antonov. These guys climbed up the chain of command like greased lightning. Or Vatutin, for that matter.
 
Then again, you've got all those executions and purges to open up command spots...the Soviet leadership minigame will certainly be an exciting one, heh.
 
 
 
 

[karonagames]

Now Joel, I did put a disclaimer that said it was our alternate history!!! ( Because I knew about the Rommel discussion)

[ComradeP]

You can now, but not in the final product. We are doing work on the leader database at the moment. It was decided about 2 months ago to remove leaders that never fought on the Eastern Front, so Rommel is going to go. We have also added additional leader fields that can limit how high a leader can go up the chain of command.

Of course, people can always use the editor to add additional leaders to scenarios.

Rommel could, realistically have fought on the Eastern Front after the end of the African campaign. He was even present to fight on the game map for a while as he was moving to take command of formations of Army Group E, but the overthrow of Mussolini cancelled that. Adding Rommel in mid 1943 and giving him a high AP cost wouldn't be all that ahistorical.

In WitP, it would be unrealistic for the Allies to fly or ship in commanders from Europe, but to the Germans moving a commanding officer from one front to the other was not too problematic. Maybe you could give them a higher AP cost, but I dislike the idea that the Germans will be limited in the deployment of their officers, especially as the Soviets have access to basically everyone that matters for their side.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Rommel could, realistically have fought on the Eastern Front after the end of the African campaign. He was even present to fight on the game map for a while as he was moving to take command of formations of Army Group E, but the overthrow of Mussolini cancelled that. Adding Rommel in mid 1943 and giving him a high AP cost wouldn't be all that ahistorical.

In WitP, it would be unrealistic for the Allies to fly or ship in commanders from Europe, but to the Germans moving a commanding officer from one front to the other was not too problematic. Maybe you could give them a higher AP cost, but I dislike the idea that the Germans will be limited in the deployment of their officers, especially as the Soviets have access to basically everyone that matters for their side.

I agree, this is still a game and should allow you to test out options, that just were not happing historically. I wouldn't mind a "historical play" mode, where you would have to do with what you got, but as a player you also should be able to switch that off. However, if this only a matter of editing the TOC and values for leaders, and can easily be modded, then we can add the missing guys to each scenario later and make a 2nd version of each.

[karonagames]

Quick update:

There was a bug that we thought had been fixed, but wasn't, and there is a problem with soviet recon that we probably couldn't live with over the course of a long game.

New versions get released on Thursday in the US which usually means I get it in the UK by Friday. So I won't know until late tonight or early tomorrow if we have a version that will allow us to go deep into the game.

The OOB is not finalised, and some obsolete equipment has already been spotted in active units, but this will have minimal impact on the test. A lot of data is "locked in" at the beginning of the game and can't be changed as new versions are released, so it is important that we use a version that is unlikely to break in the medium to long term

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Rommel could, realistically have fought on the Eastern Front after the end of the African campaign. He was even present to fight on the game map for a while as he was moving to take command of formations of Army Group E, but the overthrow of Mussolini cancelled that. Adding Rommel in mid 1943 and giving him a high AP cost wouldn't be all that ahistorical.

In WitP, it would be unrealistic for the Allies to fly or ship in commanders from Europe, but to the Germans moving a commanding officer from one front to the other was not too problematic. Maybe you could give them a higher AP cost, but I dislike the idea that the Germans will be limited in the deployment of their officers, especially as the Soviets have access to basically everyone that matters for their side.

The basic concept of WitE is to give the Axis player ONLY the capabilities his historical counterparts had. Therefore you shouldn't get Rommel and any other commander who never fought on the Eastern Front just as you don't get Panzer Lehr or any other division that never fought there. You are placed in the position of the men who actually fought the campaign and have to fight with the resources they had available not what theoretically could have been available. For those that find this approach unsatisfying the game will come with an editor which will allow players to explore almost endless possiblities in alternative realities.

[ComradeP]

By definition, we will be able to do a lot more as the Axis than the historical Axis commanders because we don't have to worry about Hitler.

Does that also mean that the Soviets forces in the Far East that did not historically fight elsewhere will never be available, no matter how much of a beating the Soviet Union is taking?

[karonagames]

The soviet can use AP to build units in or adjacent to urban areas. admittedly they might only be emergency gap fillers that won't last long due to low morale and experience, but if they survive they can evolve into Guards Corps.

The current (subject to testing/change) Soviet reinforcement schedule is slightly abstracted in that up to November 1941 any units that the soviet loses are automatically replaced and added to the reinforcement schedule 4-27 turns after the were destroyed. After November 1941, only units that were transferred from other theatres - the so called "Siberians" and units such as the Polish Army that came into existence late in the war are on the reinforcement schedule. if you want to replace your losses after November 1941 you will have to use APs.

In the forthcoming 1943 campaign, apart from the Orienbaum enclave which I know I can wipe out, I can't see me creating major encirclements. I will try to create "mini-pockets" that will cost him 4-6 unit losses, but this will cost him about 1 weeks AP allocation to replace.

This aspect of the game does need a lot of testing, so again there is no point in starting a lengthy debate - I'm just telling you how it is at the moment.

[karonagames]

I knew I should have put Guderian in charge!

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Does that also mean that the Soviets forces in the Far East that did not historically fight elsewhere will never be available, no matter how much of a beating the Soviet Union is taking?

Correct because to do otherwise would require speculation on what the Japanese response would have been if suddenly the Far Eastern Army was stripped bare. We just aren't going there. The Russian will have to make do with what he has (which is actually quite a lot) plus limited production.

[Zovs]

The soviet can use AP to build units in or adjacent to urban areas. admittedly they might only be emergency gap fillers that won't last long due to low morale and experience, but if they survive they can evolve into Guards Corps.

Not exactly, if created and used correctly, but you'll soon find out comrade, yes?

These and others are some of the bag of tricks I have learned, effectively comrade, no?

I will try to create "mini-pockets" that will cost him 4-6 unit losses, but this will cost him about 1 weeks AP allocation to replace.

The key word here comrade, is try, no?

lol

[ComradeP]

OK, I was just wondering because if it were possible the Soviets would get an advantage that is denied to the Germans. As said before: having these debates now is, to me at least, preferable over having them when the game is released as we're now up to date on the reasons behind some of the major decisions and can thus debate them with others/reply to questions too.

[karonagames]

Prologue:

Date 24th June 1943

Location: OKH Headquarters –somewhere in East Prussia

Field Marshal Rommel entered the conference room and took his place in front of the senior officers of OKH, the foremost of which was the leader of the Third Reich.

“Gentlemen, our Leader asked me to produce a strategic assessment of the Eastern Front, in light of the delays that have occurred that have forced the launch of the offensive to take place much later than originally intended.”

“The enemy has used the time the delays have given them to build a wall of steel around the whole perimeter of the Kursk salient. The latest reconnaissance and intelligence reports indicates that the soviets have created a colossal interconnected web of minefields, defensive strong points and concealed anti-tank gun pits comprising 8 progressively spaced defence lines. Collectively, the defensive works around Kursk form a contiguous and essentially impenetrable belt over 250 km deep—more than 10 times deeper than the vaunted Maginot Line—and with a better than 1:1 ratio of AT guns to our tanks, making it by far the most powerful defensive line ever constructed”

“The enemy has significant reserves outside of the Kursk salient, which they are making great efforts to camouflage, and I admit that our reconnaissance photographs may show decoy forces, but I believe they are holding back at least 10 infantry and 6 mechanised armies that they will commit to the front line to attack towards Orel and Kharkhov “

“Our assault forces have received the new Panther tanks, and heavy Jagdpanzers, and are at the peak of their strength. The Luftwaffe has concentrated its fighters to ensure air superiority across the whole of the salient, and the new anti-tank Stuka squadrons are ready. All units are well supplied and will be able to operate and maximum strength for at least 2 weeks”

“Gentlemen, it is my recommendation that we cancel Operation Citadel.”

Several gasps came from the assembled officers. Out of the corner of his eye, Rommel noticed the Leader clench his fists as he stood up.

“Field Marshal Rommel” the leader said with a slight quiver in his voice, “How dare you suggest the greatest offensive in the history of the Third Reich is cancelled! What alternative do we have?”

“I do have an alternative plan which I intend to present to you now.” Rommel replied.

The Leader’s fists unclenched as he sat down.

“Continue.”

“Gentlemen, the time for great offensives is over. Now is the time for new thinking and new forms of warfare. In the same way that we did not attack the Maginot line in 1940, we should not consider attacking the new “Maginot” line that the Soviets have constructed around Kursk. Our offensives to date have always seen us attack when and where the enemy least expects. It is clear the enemy knows when and where we will attack.”

Rommel noticed the Leader’s head nod slightly.

“My experience in Africa in has taught me that success in battle is due to logistics. Yes, I know I am known for saying “Attack, damn the logistics!”, but, just as my success at El Algheila came when the Tommies were at the end of their supply line, my set back at El Alamein came when our logistic abilities were overstretched.”

Many in the audience laughed, but nodded in agreement.

“Because the enemy expects us to attack in the summer, we shall not; we shall attack in the winter, after we have drawn them to the end of their supply lines. The campaign will take place in two phases. Phase 1: Operation Breakwater will see us stage a fighting withdrawal to the prepared defen-“

“WITHDRAWAL, WITHDRAWAL!” the Leader almost screamed. “Why do my generals always suggest withdrawal?”

“My leader, please let me continue: I did say a fighting withdrawal leading to a winter offensive.”

“Carry on.” The Leader snapped.

“We will stage a fighting withdrawal planned to allow our troops to enter the prepared defensive positions on the Panther-Wotan lines when the autumn mud season begins. The enemy will be at the end of their supply lines, and the mud will further disrupt their logistic ability, while we will be closer to our supply bases. If the enemy attempts to attack the Panther Line they will be weakened even more and use up more supplies that they cannot replace easily in the mud”

“Phase 2 of the campaign: Operation Rising Tide will see our mechanised troops which will not have exhausted themselves achieving nothing attacking the fortresses of Kursk, but will have conserved their strength while jabbing like a boxer at the enemy during the withdrawal phase of the operation, will then launch their knock-out punch when winter frosts arrive and the enemy’s logistic ability is over-stretched and I will get my revenge for El Alamein!”

Everyone in the room focused on the Leader as he got to his feet.

“Field Marshal, Gentlemen. I need time to consider your plan. Let us adjourn for refreshments and reconvene in one hour.”

[PyleDriver]

Bob this game sucked you in also, welcome to the club...Got to love it...Btw good premise to whats in store...Flex defence in 43, draw them out and cut them off...You need to be very clever now at where you place your reserves...Get them worring about supply, then kick the crap out of them...lol...Remember guys the honor system, theres no guards agianst FOW now in PBEM. So play fair...No peaking...

[The SNAFU]

BigAnorak

It felt as though I was in the conference bunker as Rommel took complete control of the meeting. Very nicely done.

The only problem is that I think there may have been a Soviet spy in the room who will promptly report your...errr I mean Rommels intentions to the STAVKA.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

The soviet can use AP to build units in or adjacent to urban areas. admittedly they might only be emergency gap fillers that won't last long due to low morale and experience, but if they survive they can evolve into Guards Corps.

The current (subject to testing/change) Soviet reinforcement schedule is slightly abstracted in that up to November 1941 any units that the soviet loses are automatically replaced and added to the reinforcement schedule 4-27 turns after the were destroyed. After November 1941, only units that were transferred from other theatres - the so called "Siberians" and units such as the Polish Army that came into existence late in the war are on the reinforcement schedule. if you want to replace your losses after November 1941 you will have to use APs.

In the forthcoming 1943 campaign, apart from the Orienbaum enclave which I know I can wipe out, I can't see me creating major encirclements. I will try to create "mini-pockets" that will cost him 4-6 unit losses, but this will cost him about 1 weeks AP allocation to replace.

This aspect of the game does need a lot of testing, so again there is no point in starting a lengthy debate - I'm just telling you how it is at the moment.

Well, this is interesting. If the Sov can somehow manage to keep his units out of the deadpile in 1941, or at any rate less so than historical, he will be in the nice position of having APs available for other uses.

Now I understand why they get fewer APs per turn than the Germans. Those "free" reinforcements in 1941 represent hundreds of APs no doubt.

Conversely, this puts a lot of pressure on the German to kill Soviets while the killing is good. If they go for a territorial knockout blow and come up short and allow lots of units to get away this is going to cause them problems down the line.