Major concern: Armor

[wodin]

I sent in an airstrike and kept my on the enemy est....nothing...though your intel isn't fully known...this is where a detailed AAR at the end of the game can fill you in...it could state what was destroyed by what including airstrikes....

The problem I found in the one scenario with regards to tanks was I thought the german tigers of the AI's could have caused far more problems than they did....I had nothing really in my arsenal to take them on and they hardly made an impact...

Still as my holey moley post states....I'm very pleased on what I've seen so far...

[CptWaspLuca]

After more playing I feel armors even more unbalanced. After 2 full days of fighting on Elsenborn Ridge I lost NO ARMOR at all. No combat losses, and no operational losses. Then on D3 a couple of M10 blocked the entire Kampfgruppe Peiper and maybe 40 Panther tanks, 1-2Km from the exit point, destroying 4 or 5 tanks and routing the others. And I had other crashes, BTW. Operational losses are much needed in Ardennes, and tanks effectiveness has something wrong. They do too little, and they are too tough.

[CptWaspLuca]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1653820/Saved%20Games.zip

What happens when a full company of Panthers (6 Coy 1 SS) goes through 156 enemies, assaulting them? Nothing. I tried different times; lost 1 German soldier in an attempt, nothing happened the other times. I know, you can justify this as "fog of war", the night, fortunes of war... But it happens on a regular basis in BftB (and in COTA). In BftB armors are very important and this is made more evident than in COTA.

[CptWaspLuca]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1653820/Elsenbo ... AN%203.zip

See this: the last stand of AT Coy 394 Inf Reg against more than 30 tanks and infantry. It's resisting since 3:00, with maybe 2 or 3 losses. Panthers are on their positions 1, 2, 3 times, they inflict light losses on tanks, but they are nearly invulnerable. Stubborn? But they are resting, and deployed!!! How it's possible? How can they resist with 1 gun and 7 Bazookas?

HE round from tanks do nothing/too less to infantry.

[wodin]

I imagine these things will get fixed CptWasp...it seems to me like your panicking alittl and writing the game off....all games have teething problems and Dave has a good track record in getting them right...

Are you sending your saves to Dave....this is very important so he can see whats happening...

At the end of my scenarios there are usually a fair amount of destroyed tanks around...I've lost many Panthers and MkIV's...just needs a bit of balancing..

I notice your not to happy with the purchase at this price either....shame to be honest...this has the Est Editor which adds a massive amount to he game in the LONG run...

[simovitch]

I downloaded your saved game and I'm taking a look. That AT coy does seem to be built hell-for-stoudt. I need to look at it with the debug tools to really see what's going on. I'll be back.[:)]

[CptWaspLuca]

IF there will be user scenarios, yes

We will see

I hope that my save files and my little complaints will make the game better. I'm only a little surprised that few people are alarmed by these problems. At NWI there are other players with the same feeling than me, and some are COTA veterans like me. Armor management seems unrealistic, and for a game like this (at this price) it IS a problem.

[CptWaspLuca]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

I downloaded your saved game and I'm taking a look. That AT coy does seem to be built hell-for-stoudt. I need to look at it with the debug tools to really see what's going on. I'll be back.[:)]

Thank you, THIS is great. I like this kind of support

My feeling is that HE round are very often ineffective.

I was at Bucholz station, with about 20 Tigers. They fired ALL the HE rounds, obtaining maybe 5-10 kills.

What I would like to see in a patch:
- Tanks without infantry support in restricted terrain severely penalized, with more losses
- HE rounds more proficient when assaulting WITH infantry support or in open terrain
- More realistic behavior when under massive assault and overwhelmed, with more losses (maybe from both sides). In my save file the aggro value was max, but losses were very little.

Thank you again for your debugging.

[wodin]

Cpt Wasp,

We all see the problems I believe and I'm sure more of us would post...I have mentioned them myself...but with the anti price lobby I think many are worried that they will pounce on it and start saying weve been ripped off etc etc...

I do feel the game will get better....with the price it was sold at I'm sure Panther Games are going todo everything they can to get it right and improve it...even though some things are left over from last time.

[Arimus]

I noticed the lack of operational losses, but I think there are more important things they should concern themselves with at the moment!

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: CptWasp

IF there will be user scenarios, yes

We will see

I hope that my save files and my little complaints will make the game better. I'm only a little surprised that few people are alarmed by these problems. At NWI there are other players with the same feeling than me, and some are COTA veterans like me. Armor management seems unrealistic, and for a game like this (at this price) it IS a problem.

This is a fair statement and we do appreciate the constructive input. There is a lot going on 'under the hood' and besides the obvious estab errors I need to confer with Dave and Paul about what is WAD and what isn't.[:)]

[wodin]

Shame the anti game lobbyist in the price thread have got a bone to chew on now...never hear the end of it....it's not that they want the game but can't afford it...it's that they don't think it's worth it....there are thousands of games and products out there that I don't think are worth the money but I don't go on forums to bang on about it...

[daft]

It really isn't something we should dwell on. You can't expect bug free software. BftB is a vary mature game, and the bugs that are reported on here will be looked at in great detail, so no worries. Again, it really is about making a decision and sticking with it. I love the game and have fun playing it. I've stopped thinking about the price long ago. [:)]

[CptWaspLuca]

I think you are exaggerating... it's a forum, it's normal that there are different opinions. I don't feel "ripped off", I like the series, but I want to point out the problems so they will be fixed. I don't think about "lobbies" when I write my opinions. As a game reviewer, wargamer and professional SW Architect I know well bugs, and the best we can do to make the game better is speak about them.

Don't worry about other opinions about price, I'm sure Panther Games has well evaluated reactions to the price, and this has been taken into account.

Try my saved games!

[CptWaspLuca]

ORIGINAL: daft

It really isn't something we should dwell on. You can't expect bug free software. BftB is a vary mature game, and the bugs that are reported on here will be looked at in great detail, so no worries. Again, it really is about making a decision and sticking with it. I love the game and have fun playing it. I've stopped thinking about the price long ago. [:)]

Here we are speaking about armors

Thank you

[gabeeg]

Infantry carried AT(improvised and AT specific) did kill tanks in the eastern *and* western fronts.  In-direct artillery was very capable of disabling and occasionally destroying totally a tank.  Period.  Plenty of 1st person and research documentation abounds (didn't any of you see Saving Private Ryan!? (just a joke....settle down everyone)).   M5's might be harder to kill due to speed in open terrain...but given the scenario at the top of the page...coming out without a scratch seems unlikely (possible...but unlikely).   If this kind of behavior can be replicated in the test Arjuna suggests, I would say something needs a tweak.

[Fred98]

if you change sides do you get the same result?

-

[Arjuna]

I value everyones input here. Without constructive criticism this engine will not achieve the standard we all aspire to. The most important thing right now is to check out and ascertain exactly what is and what is not happening and then we can make a decision about tweaking the system or not. We're onto it.

[Panther Paul]

Hey, can I have my Tiger Coy back [;)]

In one scenario I sent my Tiger Coy forward agains the US 106th Div. They swept all before them, then the sun set. Ran head on into several Ing Co'y backed by AT. It was a short sharp fight and my poor Tigers were left as flaming wrecks!

Maybe I'm just unlucky [8|]

[wodin]

Alot of the problems here I find aren't the norm for the game....most of the time I see no problems at all and am very happy indeed with what I see going on...it's a minority of the time it appears squiffy.

Arjuna good to hear....I feel very happy and confident this game will become exactly what it can and should be and it's damn close already...what it can and should be is near genius