An Open Letter To Joel

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Wild
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Wild »

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

ORIGINAL: Richard III

Rambling Eastern Front Thoughts and A Recommendation.

The Background.

I`ve played board & computer war games for almost 30 years and I`ve always been amazed by how Strategic and Operational level Eastern Front games have avoided including the fact that the Theatre, Army , Corps and even Divisional commanders were often forced to act on the orders of a lunatic in Berlin who controlled the armed forces of the nation.

The disasterous consequences, on both the strategic and operational levels of the ex corporals meddling in day to day operations are widely documented, yet AFAIK no war-game has incorporated that in the Game design....this is so devoid of reality it boggles the mind, and a sad relection of what`s gone before.

On the other side of the hill we have the Soviet state ruled by a peasant, who is also a homicidal manic who purged almost 10,000 regular officers on the eve of war, was the final arbiter on all operational plans and placed political officers ( commissars ), with no military experience, down to the Rgt. level in the whole of the Red Army. These political officers often enforced military decisions on the local level that had no basis in reality, with dreadful losses. This also has yet to be reflected in any game design.

If you can step from the average gamers fixation with OOB`s and hardware and leaders abilities and Panzer Spearheads and what if`s, you can see the Eastern Front as some kind of a hideous Theatre of the Grotesque, with no relationship to the Western Front, the Middle East or the Pacific other then people trying to kill each other in vast numbers.

No wonder the business dragged on for years due to the constant meddling by the madmen who ruled each side. The gods must have truly enjoyed this one.

The Recommendation.

Please, introduce some _forced random events_ into the Game that reflect the above.

You and I understand that we gamers are obsessed with complete, unobstructed control of our Armies, but not only is that a-historical, but fairly quickly will be boring and reduce re-playability as gamers dope out the optimal winning process.

Introducing Random Events, beyond the historical transfers of German units to the West, creates " decision points" for the player, and that adds interest. It cannot be that hard from a programming viewpoint, although I`ll grant it will increase play testing time.

Thanks for your consideration.

RL

This is the orginal thread boy's let's not stray from rebutting this gentleman's questions or hypothesis. The gentleman never posted again due to the fact people were ridiculing his idea, especial the "elite guard" of apha/beta play testers who rushed in to stomp this guy's opinion in the dirt. I assume we all work ... in industry or where ever? You have a boss? An they never screwed up anything you were ever working on?

Nobody ridiculed his idea. All i said was i would want this rule to be optional.
It wasn't till you chimed in with your 'if i can't have it my way i'll play fallout instead' that people started to get annoyed.
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by karonagames »

If you read the thread carefully you will see that a tester did not post until the 13th post to point out that random events had been discussed before and that they were not planned. No one ridiculed the OP's idea. You then chipped in with your historical simulation argument that you failed to back up and have since done your best to undermine the efforts of the testers to provide the information that the majority of users of this forums ask for.

You obviously have your own reasons for doing so, but I think everyone would prefer you make a more positive contribution to the discussions that take place in this forum.

My last post in this thread.


It's only a Game

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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by PyleDriver »

Yes Ron (hard sarge) and I are yes men. We say yes Joel, we &%#$@!? dont like it...Lmao
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Berkut »

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

Well the individual that started this thread was immediately shouted down by the Gary G.'s "Yes Man" Brigade. So "into the valley of death" rode I. Perhaps "yesman" is a bit much although I considered other adjectives to use. The command structure for this game is incomplete, period. Your playing baseball without home plate. If we are playing Hitler then we need production and if we are underneath Adolph then he needs to be represented in the game. Because he was such a putz to interfere with his generals. Perhaps it's not doable, programming wise. That then is understandable. But the negative responce from you "Band of Brothers" is too much. LOL!! Grow up and discuss contrary idea's like adults. There's a chain of command in any organization and the Uber chief for both sides is missing. Ask Gen. McCrystal!


Actually, discussing contrary ideas like adults does not involve making personal attacks in place of actual argument - like, for instance, claiming that those who do not agree with you are all "yes men" who are "shouting down" others.

Just a little pointer.
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by ComradeP »

This is the orginal thread boy's let's not stray from rebutting this gentleman's questions or hypothesis. The gentleman never posted again due to the fact people were ridiculing his idea, especial the "elite guard" of apha/beta play testers who rushed in to stomp this guy's opinion in the dirt. I assume we all work ... in industry or where ever? You have a boss? An they never screwed up anything you were ever working on?

So you're going to keep posting anything aside from a rational argument or an actual reply to what people are saying?

You're certainly acting like a troll currently.
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Flaviusx »

Gee whiz, how did this get to 3 pages.
 
We can argue about this after the game is out and maybe get a patch with gameplay options for those who want to play with Stalin and Fuhrer directives. Sheesh.
 
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Berkut »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

We can argue about this after the game is out

I think this is the key point.

It gets to the real problem - the game isn't out.

Someone needs to start working harder. Maybe if the people working on the game didn't spend so much time listening to all the sycophants and yes men, and more time working, we wouldn't have these problems!
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Neal_MLC »



I think this is the key point.

It gets to the real problem - the game isn't out.

Someone needs to start working harder. Maybe if the people working on the game didn't spend so much time listening to all the sycophants and yes men, and more time working, we wouldn't have these problems!

[/quote]
Replace the sycophants with elephants!!!!!! they work harder!
no matter where you go, there you are
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Burl »


Richard is correct, you can't write a simulation of this war without putting in Stalin's complete incompent meddling the first few years--but you can write a game.

The problem is, with hindsight and no stalin medling rules the Russians will be in Berlin by the end of 42.
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: Burl
Richard is correct, you can't write a simulation of this war without putting in Stalin's complete incompent meddling the first few years--but you can write a game.
The problem is, with hindsight and no stalin medling rules the Russians will be in Berlin by the end of 42.

I seriously doubt that. Of course, yes, without reins, both a German or Russian player can from 1941 on already play the game in a fashion that avoids the errors that historical counterparts made. Would that be bad? Should that be avoided?

No, you shouldn't necessarily avoid that, although some game option that put on (random?) needless restrictions (for example Feste Punkte, player being ordered to hold points though in risk of envelopment) sound like they could make playing against AI tougher, and might even be a fun way of playing this game. I would call this an innovative game feature, and definitely a plus that would make me curious.

However, I would be happy if I also just could turn it off and play the game in an "ideal" fashion, avoiding historical mistakes and optimize my efforts. I image that PBEM games would be very bloody and fast if both sides would fight that way and are not restricted by a Hitler and Stalin, and playing beyond 1943 as German is probably pretty useless if the Russian is not forced by rules or Stalin meddling to commit blunders.

But since this is a game, one definitely should get the opportunity to test out how the war would have gone if those braindead had not been meddling with military matters, if the Russian had made better use of their armor in 1941/42 already etc. The more different scenarios you can test out as a player (what if the Germans had been able to up war production already before 43 significantly, what if the Panther was ready for production 6 month earlier, the Me-262, the IS-2; what if D-Day got stuck in Normandy? Italy wasn't invaded?), the more fun and long-term attraction this game will have, and the better it will be received by more casual players.

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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Burl

The problem is, with hindsight and no stalin medling rules the Russians will be in Berlin by the end of 42.

No they won't, the 10s of thousands of trained officers murdered in 1937 would still be in their graves and the Soviet forces would still be hampered by 1000s of obsolete tanks, aircraft and tactics. [:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

“A people which is able to say everything becomes able to do everything” - Napoleon

“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by ComradeP »

Well, the Germans also started the campaign with fairly obsolete tanks and finished the war with an airforce centered on a fighter plane that should really have been replaced early on in the war, being an early 1930's design.

The key difference was mostly the doctrine and training, not the equipment.
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Rasputitsa »

Agreed, but by implication with most of your trained officers dead and buried, it wouldn't matter how good your equipment was. The obsolete equipment merely compounded the Soviet's problems, with, or without Stalin in 1941, the damage had already been done. [:)]
"In politics stupidity is not a handicap" - Napoleon

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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by SGHunt »

I want to point out that I made a similar suggestion about 'Hitler Events' a couple of months back and I was told, very politely, that there were no plans to do this.   That, for me, was that.  

The game looks great.  [:)]

(And if anyone calls me a a 'Yes Man', I will hunt them down with dogs...[;)])


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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Skanvak »

There is a difference between game and simulation. Please read Chris crawford about it's game balance of Power and you shoukd understand the difference. So I guess they are designing a game.

And random event will not render the reality of the human interaction of hilter and its generals. Beside, will need rules for coup d'etat if we go this way (there was a plot to assinate hitler during a visit in the eastern front). But for the simulation to be exact youwill have to get rid of the player too as the player has insight that will make the simulation false. Especially, the Russian will know the meddling of hitler and how he meddle...

The only solution to give a feeling of the historicalsituation is to have the full command structure represented by player (including Hitler and stalin). This way every one can enjoy the problems of being in a hierachichal structure without replaying exactly history as it was.

Best regards

Skanvak
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by wworld7 »

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

(And if anyone calls me a a 'Yes Man', I will hunt them down with dogs...[;)])

Are you talking about the six (6) sleeping Beagles in your back yard?[:D][:D][:D]
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Capt Cliff »

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
This is the orginal thread boy's let's not stray from rebutting this gentleman's questions or hypothesis. The gentleman never posted again due to the fact people were ridiculing his idea, especial the "elite guard" of apha/beta play testers who rushed in to stomp this guy's opinion in the dirt. I assume we all work ... in industry or where ever? You have a boss? An they never screwed up anything you were ever working on?

So you're going to keep posting anything aside from a rational argument or an actual reply to what people are saying?

You're certainly acting like a troll currently.


An in my opinion your a douche bag ... to each his own. Debate the proposed question just don't shout it down. An I have replyed to civil questions but not any from the "Party of No".
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Cavalry Corp »

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

I want to point out that I made a similar suggestion about 'Hitler Events' a couple of months back and I was told, very politely, that there were no plans to do this.   That, for me, was that.  

The game looks great.  [:)]

(And if anyone calls me a a 'Yes Man', I will hunt them down with dogs...[;)])





More than one would be illegal :)

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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Burl »

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

There is a difference between game and simulation.

I agree, this is the whole point. In order to make the game fun though, they have to really beef up the Germans. The germans really couldn't have done any better the first few years, and the russians couldn't have done any worse (stalin was the problem).

The other problem is a Russian player knows he has to fall back the first few months, which is pure hindsight. If they present historically ballanced forces then the German player hasn't got much of a chance and the game is no fun. So hopefully (though I know the russian players will complain) they will make the german forces unreallistically strong.

They don't have to give them extra panzer divisions, they can just do what most games do and make them even more "veteran" which is really just a computer cheat on the dice rolls so to speak.
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RE: An Open Letter To Joel

Post by Berkut »

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff
An in my opinion your a douche bag ... to each his own. Debate the proposed question just don't shout it down. An I have replyed to civil questions but not any from the "Party of No".


You can, with a straight face, ask people to "debate the proposed question" in the very same post you use a debating tactic calling someone else a "douche bag"?

Or is this question not civil enough to warrant a response?

Or am I a member of the "Party of No", in addition to being a member of the "Martix Yes Men"? I guess I have all my bases covered at least!
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