ASW: Any tactics to localize?

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

ANW is buggy, PlayersDB is buggy, DB2000 is buggy - so what isn't buggy???

The PlayersDB is the least buggy version according to the definition of bug as something not working. If your weapons fire, hit the target, do damage, then they work. You may think that they have a different range or capability than I or others do but, as long as those three tenets are fulfilled, the weapon works.

No other database can make that claim according to that definition. I can point out plenty of specific examples of planes unable to launch, missiles that will never hit their targets (i.e fb.asp?m=2551144 ), etc. This is the quintessential definition of broken.

If you happen to find something broken in the PlayersDB, it will get fixed right away (not 3 months/years later). Of course, you have different expectations from weapons parameters so it is good that you are customizing your own personalized edition of the PlayersDB. [:)]

[Spearfish]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

No other database can make that claim according to that definition. I can point out plenty of specific examples of planes unable to launch, missiles that will never hit their targets

OK - so give us brief list of DB2000 major bugs. Then we shall see if you get banned or not. [;)]

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

No other database can make that claim according to that definition. I can point out plenty of specific examples of planes unable to launch, missiles that will never hit their targets

OK - so give us list of DB2000 major bugs. Then we shall see if you are banned or not. [;)]

Sure. I am not in the habit of de-bugging other databases, but I can certainly post a few to whet your curiosity. It will only take me a few minutes. No one is going to be banned for this list on Matrix. This is not hhq forum. Matrix does not issues bans capriciously.

I'm looking at the latest version of the Y2kDB dated Feb 25, 2007 v10.0.0:

Plane #156 - Tu-22KD Blinder B|Russia/1980-92 has a Communication system mismatch with its AS-4 missiles. It is missing the datalink necessary for launch so those missiles will never come off the plane.

A similar problem will occur for:

Plane #265 - SA.365 Dauphin|France/1983-93 and the Mistral she carries. They will fire, but can never hit a target.

Plane #201 - F-4E Phantom II|Israel/1989/Kurnass will be able to drop its GBU-15(V)1/B CWW EO [Mk84]|1983 but they will never hit for the same reason.

I found all this within 15 minutes. I hope that this is satisfactory for your purposes. I can send a test file to show you this for yourself, if you like.

[Spearfish]

Maybe clear explanation how entire CADS-N-1 system works will be helpful. Each module get target's bearing from ship's acquisition radar or specially designed MR-352 radar (yet not present on all ships equipped with CADS-N-1). Then two channels are designed to track assigned target: Hot Flash radar and auxiliary TV (but not IR) channel to assure better resistance to electronic countermeasures. Later one missile is launched. SA-N-11 missiles are not IR homing but command guided. They are only tracked by CADS-N-1 second optical channel constantly spotting IR tracker placed in the missile's rear. Next CADS-N-1 computes and sends proper guidance commands via radio datalink to missile. Every module is single channel system so next engagement is possible only after previous missile hit target or miss it. However the trick works that way: each module is designed to be able to carry out four sequential engagements - three missile firings and one cannon shot. So in ideal conditions one CADS-N-1 module should kill four incoming vampires or at least tries to kill one vampire four times. Of course there are several CADS-N-1 modules on one ship so in sum CADS-N-1 firepower is multiplied and limited only by module firing arcs.


So you should change CADS-N-1 modeling in PlayersDB.

[Spearfish]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

I found all this within 15 minutes. I hope that this is satisfactory for your purposes. I can send a test file to show you this for yourself, if you like.

Thanks! I am not interested in debugging DB2000, either. But you can always PM this list to MikMyk. [:D]

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

Maybe clear explanation how entire CADS-N-1 system works will be helpful. Each module get target's bearing from ship's acquisition radar or specially designed MR-352 radar (yet not present on all ships equipped with CADS-N-1). Then two channels are designed to track assigned target: Hot Flash radar and auxiliary TV (but not IR) channel to assure better resistance to electronic countermeasures. Later one missile is launched. SA-N-11 missiles are not IR homing but command guided. They are only tracked by CADS-N-1 second optical channel constantly spotting IR tracker placed in the missile's rear. Next CADS-N-1 computes and sends proper guidance commands via radio datalink to missile. Every module is single channel system so next engagement is possible only after previous missile hit target or miss it. However the trick works that way: each module is designed to be able to carry out four sequential engagements - three missile firings and one cannon shot. So in ideal conditions one CADS-N-1 module should kill four incoming vampires or at least tries to kill one vampire four times. Of course there are several CADS-N-1 modules on one ship so in sum CADS-N-1 firepower is multiplied and limited only by module firing arcs.


So you should change CADS-N-1 modeling in PlayersDB.

Harpoon doesn't model all systems like they exist in real life. You have to model them within the design.
That being said...how would you model this in Harpoon? What db fields etc.?

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

So you should change CADS-N-1 modeling in PlayersDB.

Look, I appreciate what you post regarding weapons, but I do not tell you what to put into your modified Database. How about the same courtesy regarding PlayersDB, okay? As before, the definition PlayersDB operates under is:

[blockquote]If it fires, if it hits, if it delivers damage, then it isn't broken.[/blockquote]In fact, there are other some things that I know are not done in real life, but are employed in PlayersDB (and other databases) simply because they make the game play better. For example, some databases (including the PlayersDB) have datalinks on weapons such as Stinger missiles. I know that this does not happen in real life. However, for PlayersDB, this is done primarily to keep the AI from killing its own units. Otherwise, the AI ends up shooting down its units and defeats itself without any help from the player.

Not every database does this, but PlayersDB in the spirit of making the game more fun and enjoyable by making the AI a little more challenging. Should you decide to not employ this technique for your personalized database, that is your prerogative.

[Spearfish]

@MikMyk: Look at various databases: in one SA-N-11 missile has "2nd generation Soviet IR seeker", in another this is "SAHR Blk 1 seeker"...both are not real. I am not sure how this affects missile performance but it is worth clarifying.

@Hermanhum: I see. Simply Harpoon 3 game engine has its own limitations and real weapon modeling is not always possible. However I cannot agree with your statement: "If it fires, if it hits, if it delivers damage, then it isn't broken." That is too little because weapons can hit with different Pk, ROF etc. which has a huge impact on game balance.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

I found all this within 15 minutes. I hope that this is satisfactory for your purposes. I can send a test file to show you this for yourself, if you like.

Thanks! I am not interested in debugging DB2000, either. But you can always PM this list to MikMyk. [:D]

Ha! Don't worry he won't [:)]

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

I found all this within 15 minutes. I hope that this is satisfactory for your purposes. I can send a test file to show you this for yourself, if you like.

Thanks! I am not interested in debugging DB2000, either. But you can always PM this list to MikMyk. [:D]

I'll help anyone (including hhq and AGSI) who asks for it, but I will [not] force my help upon anyone who does not want it.

When you finish your personalized edition of the PlayersDB and decide to de-bug or promote it, I'll help if you ask me to do so.

Edit: added "[not]" [:)]

[Spearfish]

Well, I focus primarly on US-Soviet naval encounters during last Cold War period circa 1975-90 so I won't check all database, also because this is titanic task for one person. However after finishing my job I can send you my personal database if you wish.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

@Hermanhum: I see. Simply Harpoon 3 game engine has its own limitations and real weapon modeling is not always possible?

IMO, remember first and foremost that this is a game. It is supposed to be fun. Fanbois will scream and shout that it is a 'simulator', but it is a game with limitations. Everyone (editors and players, alike) does the best they can given those limitations (including all the bugs).

There are some databases that claim to be 'the most realistic'. Then they set up their weapons in what they deem the most realistic fashion only to find that they won't ever fire, or won't ever hit, or deliver no damage, etc.

That is why the PlayersDB never makes this boast. However, I will say that all the weapons for PlayersDB work. If you can find an error in this statement, I'll have it fixed within a day.

The point being, "Who cares how 'realistic' your setup may or may not be if it doesn't work?"

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

I found all this within 15 minutes. I hope that this is satisfactory for your purposes. I can send a test file to show you this for yourself, if you like.

Thanks! I am not interested in debugging DB2000, either. But you can always PM this list to MikMyk. [:D]

I'll help anyone (including hhq and AGSI) who asks for it, but I will force my help upon anyone who does not want it.

When you finish your personalized edition of the PlayersDB and decide to de-bug or promote it, I'll help if you ask me to do so.

What a guy!

[Spearfish]

Therefore I think good database is database which assures realistic weapons behavior regardless of hidden tricks like unrealistic guidance methods etc. enabling this correct behavior.  

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

However after finishing my job I can send you my personal database if you wish.

There are already two other guys working on personalized variants of the PlayersDB. Guess what? They do not agree with my database values, either! [:)]

They are making scenarios with their personalized designs and will probably want me to distribute them along with all the PlayersDB scenarios at the same time in the Complete PlayersDB Harpoon ANW Library. I encourage this.

I (unlike AGSI) do not play favorites. I will promote anyone who asks me to do so. Our Complete PlayersDB Harpoon ANW Library is wildly popular and successful. I can see no reason not share that success with others who ask for it.

[Spearfish]

But you'll have to include their databases in this combined bundle...

Besides I guess this success overshadowed DB2000... [:D]

[hermanhum]

If Y2kDB and other databases want their material bundled with mine, I cannot foresee a reason to not make this happen. 

However, I won't be chasing anyone (including AGSI) down and demanding to help them.  As a player, wouldn't you prefer having all the databases and scenarios bundled together into one nice convenient installer instead of searching the interweb for them one at a time? 

PlayersDB has over 400 scenarios in our bundle.  Adding a couple hundred more is not a problem and can only serve to benefit the players.  Of course, only people who really care about providing premium service, convenience, and benefits to their users and followers would think this way.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

But you'll have to include their databases in this combined bundle...

Besides I guess this success overshadowed DB2000... [:D]

Crushed it. That why we talk about it 3 or so years after its last update.[:D]

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

If Y2kDB and other databases want their material bundled with mine, I cannot foresee a reason to not make this happen. 

However, I won't be chasing anyone (including AGSI) down and demanding to help them.  As a player, wouldn't you prefer having all the databases and scenarios bundled together into one nice convenient installer instead of searching the interweb for them one at a time? 

PlayersDB has over 400 scenarios in our bundle.  Adding a couple hundred more is not a problem and can only serve to benefit the players.  Of course, only people who really care about providing premium service, convenience, and benefits to their users and followers would think this way.

Oh..despite the great pitch I don't think you'll have many takers.

My understanding is the next Harpoon will have an updated DB schema etc. so will wait to see how your db works after before signing on the dotted line..hehe

[Vincenzo_Beretta]

All databases employ either tricks or tweaks to make the game more challenging. Some of them are more extreme than others.

For example, DB2000 employs invisible "KGB agents on weather balloons", or SS-N-19s on similar balloons to simulate an Oscar striking a CVN with the player unable to stop it (because there is no Oscar to be found via ASW tactics in the first place). You are not forced to employ this kind of tricks, but some scenario do.

At the end it comes down to two things: your philosophy about what is "fun" and the objective fact that scenario/DB designers must confront the (increasing) number of unfixed bugs in the basic game.

I agree that it is time for a new generation of games. But in the meanwhile it would be cool to play with a game that - as you may have noticed - has such passionate following. The reason why they, sadly, are unable/unwilling to fix it is, by now, beyond me - and something I sometimes can only compare with "writer block".