Where did my HQs go? Noob mistake #1

[Mynok]

Best lessons learned are the hard ones. I don't want them to change it. Done it myself.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Best lessons learned are the hard ones. I don't want them to change it. Done it myself.

The only lessons to be learned here are, that it is a stupid, needlessly painful aspect of the interface that should be fixed, and that some people will defend stupidity, no matter how foolish it makes them look.

It serves absolutely no purpose to the moving player to not have a warning, given the consequences. As it is now, it's simply a ridiculous "gotcha".

[Gandalf]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

The only lessons to be learned here are, that it is a stupid, needlessly painful aspect of the interface that should be fixed, and that some people will defend stupidity, no matter how foolish it makes them look.

It serves absolutely no purpose to the moving player to not have a warning, given the consequences. As it is now, it's simply a ridiculous "gotcha".

+1

[Zovs]

Technically the lesson that should be learned is that its a very bad idea to leave a HQ unit (any side) unprotected and alone in a hex. You can see the reverse of this effect when you displace enemy HQ's during your turn due to them being left alone and it should really not come as any sort of surprise to you that your HQ are dispersing due to carelessness.

HQs should not be in the front lines anyway and if they are in front line hexes and you need to move the combat units that they are stacked with to other locations then you need to pay particular attention to detail and move the HQ first before moving the combat unit. Hence the lesson that should be learned.

It really has nothing to do with the UI and there is really nothing that needs to be fixed. Adding in a warning dialog box would just be a major annoyance and slow down which is not needed or wanted, once you learn the basic lesson of not moving your HQs first if they are stacked with other combat units and are in front line locations.

[gradenko2k]

People are actually arguing against the game telling you "Wait, stop, hold up ... this move will cause your HQ to displace! Confirm you want to do this" ?

I mean, never mind the fact that no one would ever actually want to do this, but if you play "correctly", the whole "just disrupts flow of the game" argument wouldn't hold water because you'd never run into the dialog anyway!

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

It really has nothing to do with the UI and there is really nothing that needs to be fixed.

Actually, it has *everything* to do with the UI. There is a lot to love about this game, but to make such a claim is just silly. Despite all the good parts of the game, there are indeed, many aspects of the UI that are simply put, pants-on-head retarded. This is one of them.

This is akin to having a prompt before overwriting a save file, or formatting your C: drive, or having a safety belt light come on in your car's dashboard. The game will automatically displace your HQ unless you go through contortions to prevent it. I want to focus on fighting my PBEM opponent, not on fighting the interface. In other words, playing "Simon says" with the interface bouncing my HQ back, because I didn't move in the "proper" order is NOT what I want to do in a game.

Your idea of fun may vary.

[Zovs]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this rule.

As a last resort I suggest you read 7.1.3 and 15.10 again to fully understand the rules of the game and the main reason why there is no reason for a dialog box prompt for this rule violation.

7.1.3. ZERO CV UNITS

To reflect their inability to participate in ground combat, some ground units will have a combat value (CV) of zero and will perform an automatic displacement move (15.10) if an enemy combat unit moves adjacent unless they are stacked with a friendly combat unit with a CV of at least one.

A unit with a CV of zero will not participate in combat, but may take losses due to being forced to retreat or displace.

Headquarter units will always have a combat value (CV) of zero. Units in a routed or depleted (Actual TOE of ten percent or less) state will also have a CV of zero.

This is not an UI issue, this is an issue for the commander that does not understand or follow this rule, just because you don't like it does not mean it's broken or not meant to be part of the game.

It has nothing to do with fun either, it's just part of the game and if you make a mistake your virtual troops and HQs will pay for it.

[JS]

I think the key here is "To reflect their inability to participate in ground combat, some ground units will have a combat value (CV) of zero and will perform an automatic displacement move (15.10) if an enemy combat unit MOVES ADJACENT".

I think the displacement is supposed to be simulating an enemy moving in on your HQ, displacing it, as it is in danger of being overrun. Just because you happen to move your combat unit before the HQ in the game, this doesn't mean the enemy is suddenly moving in, threatening to overrun the HQ. In reality, both the HQ and the combat unit's moves would be simultaneous. They are not happening at the same time in the game, because of the turn based system. I would suggest that your HQ should only get displaced if it is left alone close to an enemy unit at the end of your turn. That way, no pop up notification would be needed.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

This is not an UI issue, this is an issue for the commander that does not understand or follow this rule, just because you don't like it does not mean it's broken or not meant to be part of the game.

Bingo. Debate ended. The only fools here are the ones who can't figure out how to keep their HQs from getting displaced.

[pat.casey]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

This is not an UI issue, this is an issue for the commander that does not understand or follow this rule, just because you don't like it does not mean it's broken or not meant to be part of the game.

Bingo. Debate ended. The only fools here are the ones who can't figure out how to keep their HQs from getting displaced.

As a rule of thumb in product design, if a UI implementation is confusing to a large number of people, regardless of whether or not it confuses its developer, it is a bad implementation.

As a rule of thumb in normal social interactions, referring to those who disagree with you as "fools" is neither polite nor likely to convince people of the superior quality of your position.

[Mynok]

He did it first.

And no, I don't buy into those UI design rules. People are idiots. That includes me. Things that teach us to be more careful and counteract our innate idiocy by thinking and planning are good things.

[cookie monster]

[8|]

[Mynok]

I hope you aren't planning to argue against the "people are idiots" premise. I have loads of evidence. [;)]

[pat.casey]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I hope you aren't planning to argue against the "people are idiots" premise. I have loads of evidence. [;)]

I'm not taking a position for or against your premise.

I'm offering an alternate premise:

When involved in a debate, calling your opponents idiots reduces, rather than improves, your chances of changing their mind and bringing them around to agree with you.

[Duality]

The only thing that bothers me about the HQ displacement is when it gets displaced by a unit which is surrendering. Twice now I have ran into this situation while clearing pockets. I'll attack an isolated unit, it will move one hex just before it surrenders and dissappears. The hex it moves to just happens to be right next to my HQ. Yes, my HQ was probably too close to the front lines and yes, I should not have left them alone but they got displaced by a bunch of Russians running toward them with white flags! Perhaps they did not want the burden of POWs? [:)]

[gradenko2k]

The ruling still works in cases of your units moving towards the enemy's HQs.

I suppose I get the point where having this happen to you teaches you a lesson about moving your units in the correct order, but it barely accomplishes even that precisely because we had to start an external thread just to explain what's happening in the game in the first place. I mean, wouldn't the player learn just as much if the game told them "WARNING! YOU ARE ABOUT TO VIOLATE RULE 7.3.1 REGARDING 0 CV UNITS!"

The point isn't that we want the rule abolished
The point isn't that we want to be exempted from the rule

The point is that if the game would just tell us what we're doing, we'd be that much more aware of the consequences of our actions, especially when that action is something we'd never want to perform if we were aware of it in the first place

[Mynok]

Are you telling me that the first time this happened to you it did not cause you to head to the rule book and try to figure out what happened? Seriously?

Point 1: Why are your freaking HQs in the front line? I can count on two fingers the instances in my games where I found it necessary to move an HQ up to the front line in order to keep units in range.

Point 2: See Point 1.

[RayWolfe]

What everyone seems to overlook is that the interface PREVENTS you from moving a HQ to be adjacent to the enemy unless there is a friendly there as well. If that's acceptable, why is it unacceptable to move the friendly to expose a HQ without a warning?
I think JS has got the perfect answer.

[karonagames]

All I can say is that the suggestion of a "trap" to flag up a possible displacement of HQs was the first to be posted in the development forums when the game launched 6 weeks ago. There has been no response whatsoever from the development team, so I don't know whether it is a case of "No news is Good news" or not.

[gradenko2k]

Are you telling me that the first time this happened to you it did not cause you to head to the rule book and try to figure out what happened? Seriously?

You're really not utilizing the computer medium all that well if you're still throwing the player back into the manual every time something happens.

Point 1: Why are your freaking HQs in the front line? I can count on two fingers the instances in my games where I found it necessary to move an HQ up to the front line in order to keep units in range.

Playing as the Soviets in 1941. Germans pushed up right against a hex where I had an infantry division and an HQ.