DBB: DEI Scen and Map Mods

[US87891]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

ORIGINAL: US87891

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

It was all my fault. I was testing and found some things and told JWE and that is what made him throw up his hands. Designers do all they can to solve all problems and the problems screemed the loudest get the most attention. And all the small fixes for the big noises just combine and push the baby cart over the cliff and nobody knows what it was that push the baby over the edge and so cannot go back and stop it falling. John wanted this to work so much he cussed for ten minutes when I called him about the tests and he cuses good.

It is not JWE. Nobody knows how to fix these things without breaking something else. But if it gets broken in stock it is broken in babes. I don’t know one thousand of what JWE knows and do not have any direct contact with designers but will take on the job to maintain the babe scenarios as best I can.

I will only post here and only on babes threads.

MO

This is disconcerting. I have been reading about the development of this scenario with a great deal of interest. If I may ask, will you complete this project? Thank you.

Mathias.

Well that is a good question. he is still working on it but I don't know where it is going. Some of the marine people showed the original fun scenario to their brass and now they want to make a training scenario of it and have some additions and modifications they want. I don't know if this can go to public but I hope so because it is a lot of fun to me. I will ask.

MO

Thank you for the response MO, and thank you for Mr. Eldredge's contact information. I spoke to him and found our objectives are not only compatible but complimentary. We are in complete accord. I look forward to working with you.

Mathias.

[Anonymous]

JWE says why not this scenario can go out to everybody but he has cautions that things are very very different and this is not a good AE friendly game this must be played manually. The scenario is what everybody calls "the DEI Problem" and has many data changes that go only to this scenario. Many data changes are from men at to Army History Institute at the Carlisle Pennsylvania barracks and they are pretty smart.This scenario will be fun if you know what you are doing. It will be 3 or 4 weeks before it is good for the game, but it is worth waiting for.

MO

[berto]

So there's hope for public release of this still. [:)]

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

JWE says why not this scenario can go out to everybody but he has cautions that things are very very different and this is not a good AE friendly game this must be played manually. The scenario is what everybody calls "the DEI Problem" and has many data changes that go only to this scenario. Many data changes are from men at to Army History Institute at the Carlisle Pennsylvania barracks and they are pretty smart.This scenario will be fun if you know what you are doing. It will be 3 or 4 weeks before it is good for the game, but it is worth waiting for.

MO

Happy to wait here... [8D]

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

JWE says why not this scenario can go out to everybody but he has cautions that things are very very different and this is not a good AE friendly game this must be played manually. The scenario is what everybody calls "the DEI Problem" and has many data changes that go only to this scenario. Many data changes are from men at to Army History Institute at the Carlisle Pennsylvania barracks and they are pretty smart.This scenario will be fun if you know what you are doing. It will be 3 or 4 weeks before it is good for the game, but it is worth waiting for.MO

Hi MO!

Your above comments have really grabbed my attention; am very interested in playing this scenario; I know it will be good. Change is good, gents, why not expand the AE envelope and see what the Babes Crew - including an excellent support team - can do. The challenges and bumps in the road of life are there to be overcome.

As for:

Quote:

" ...this scenario can go out to everybody but he has cautions that things are very very different and this is not a good AE friendly game this must be played manually."

Ladies and Gentlemen, I respectfully submit that from the moment we wake up in the morning and step out the door on our way to work, it is almost guaranteed that things will happen that are entirely unexpected, that life is full of "undocumented features", surprises await us at every turn. Men and Women of character enjoy the challenge, and learn to adjust, enjoy and get on with it.

Ok, am really looking forward to someting different. I authorize the Babes Team to take a quick potty break, perhaps refill the shot glasses with the Malt of choice - and then get back on it....

an (im)patiently awating in Denver,

Mac

[Anonymous]

Hi Mac

Yes. "change is good" and "things are very very different". here is a memo JWE wrote for the scenario intro section.

"Japanese Naval Base Forces have been an area of particular concern. For this specific scenario, Japanese BFs are treated as an HQ echelon, with their structural/operational components broken out according to the best information we are able to obtain for the time period. Base Forces (BFs) were viewed as command and control echelons for operational areas not covered by a Fleet HQ. They were subordinate to Fleet, and their command structure was very similar, although reduced in scale.

An IJN BF had no intrinsic combat value, it was primarily a command/support organization, but could, and did, have various Naval “shops” attached thereto (port units, sub base units, etc.). IJN BFs were organized in 2 tiers; there was the BF, which was in lieu of a Fleet HQ in an area, and there was the Special BF, which had an additional tactical component to its mission. The Special BF would likely be encountered without the various Naval “shops” attached, but with more fully fleshed out Guard Units. The standard BF would likely be encountered with certain of the various Naval “shops”, but without the combat support weaponry supporting the SBF guard infantry.

The IJN BF was thus comprised of a command/control element, and certain specific Naval functional elements. It might have, under command, a guard unit, an AA unit, a CD unit, one or more SNLF units, but it was primarily a Naval HQ unit, with the others assigned as desired. As an example, the 32nd Special Base Force had very little of intrinsic combat power, but it was the command element for the majority of the SNLF units operating in the DEI during the scenario time frame.

Naval Guard Units were on a similar organization with the SNLFs. They had rifle units (typically 2 companies), but sometimes, rifle companies had only 3 platoons. They had (perhaps) a gun unit; this could have a 37mm pltn, a 70mm pltn, a 75mm pltn, a 90mm mortar pltn, all of which were interchangeable, and provided on a platoon basis so a unit could have 1 of each, or none of any, or 2 of this, whatever, quite flexible. They may also have a heavy gun unit comprising a mix of various CD guns, although these mainly appeared post 1942, unless the Guard Unit was a Defense Unit (technically, a Bobitai as opposed to a Keibitai) and mainly showing in Special Base Forces (Tokobetsu Konkyochitai). There was (often, but not always) an AA defense unit, itself composed of 4 different organizations; A, B, C, and Special.

The various combat elements were under command of the Guard Unit, if present, but the AA and CD elements were separate (not necessarily organic) and could fall under direct BF command echelon.

IJN BFs are therefore considered HQ units. Their historical components are assigned according to the best information we are able to get."

I don't know where he gets this things from but I learned a long time ago he has Army friends and friends in japan and he can find out some wierd things so I can believe in this. What he wants is commen sense. I think you will like this scenario.

MO

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

JWE says why not this scenario can go out to everybody but he has cautions that things are very very different and this is not a good AE friendly game this must be played manually. The scenario is what everybody calls "the DEI Problem" and has many data changes that go only to this scenario. Many data changes are from men at to Army History Institute at the Carlisle Pennsylvania barracks and they are pretty smart.This scenario will be fun if you know what you are doing. It will be 3 or 4 weeks before it is good for the game, but it is worth waiting for.MO

Hi MO!

Your above comments have really grabbed my attention; am very interested in playing this scenario; I know it will be good. Change is good, gents, why not expand the AE envelope and see what the Babes Crew - including an excellent support team - can do. The challenges and bumps in the road of life are there to be overcome.

As for:

Quote:

" ...this scenario can go out to everybody but he has cautions that things are very very different and this is not a good AE friendly game this must be played manually."

Ladies and Gentlemen, I respectfully submit that from the moment we wake up in the morning and step out the door on our way to work, it is almost guaranteed that things will happen that are entirely unexpected, that life is full of "undocumented features", surprises await us at every turn. Men and Women of character enjoy the challenge, and learn to adjust, enjoy and get on with it.

Ok, am really looking forward to someting different. I authorize the Babes Team to take a quick potty break, perhaps refill the shot glasses with the Malt of choice - and then get back on it....

an (im)patiently awating in Denver,

Mac

+1

[Mac Linehan]

Hi, MO!

Thank You for the update - the memo is informative, a real teaser on the direction (to my view) that the Babes Team is going. Very exciting stuff.

Here's my take - from the view point of a player:

> AE, already a deep and complex game, can do more - much more. In support of this statement one only has to take note of the series of patches and player modifications that have added - in stages - an even greater depth of detail and realism to this awesome game.

> 40 miles hexes, while on the higher end of the scale when, for example, compared to WitE, is, once one appreciates the vastness of the Pacific Ocean and sheer size - in distances - of the campaigns fought therein, a workable standard. If it is possible to break down Divisional units to it's regimental (or even battalion components, i.e. artillery), which can inter react and reflect differing command / combat combinations and thus capabilities, this would be a move in the right direction. Even if component units were stacked in the same hex (because of scale), this would potentially allow a greater level of flexibility and reflect the realistic challenges of command, control and combat ability. Separating the Arty from the infantry would be very realistic. My ideal setup would be the ability to specifically designate the line "assault" units, and place the supporting arms (arty) behind them, so as to protect the support units to a greater or lesser degree. The line units would bear the brunt of the assault or defense, thus taking a higher porportion of the casualties or losses. I realize that there are significant code limitations, and the game scale or combat resolution process may not support (without significant code changes) this level of detailed management. I am also confident that the Babes Team will do what is possible within the current game engine framework - and that it will be good.

In any event, all of you - the modders and patchers - have done an outstanding job of squeezing a higher level of performance out of the AE engine. This is all the more remarkable when one considers that programming evolves very rapidly - even three to five years sees a significant advance in format and approach.

OK - Thanks again for the update.

Mac

[Anonymous]

Hi Mac
That is how this scenarios is set up. Like the Japanese 48 division has a division HQ that reports to 14 Army until it changes to 16 Army and it has pieces that report to 48 Division HQ. 1 Taiwan, 2 Taiwan, 47 infantry, 48 recon, and 3 artillery battalions with 75mm guns and 1 with 10cm howitzers. And the other ones are broken up the same way. Sometimes a infantry regiment is broken up into battalions like the III/33rd called the Miura destachment on Davao when the rest of the 33rd was on Lamon Bay. And the Kawaguchi brigade has a Kawaguchi HQ unit and the 124 infantry is broken up into I/II/III batns so that Oka can make his barges conquests of Borneo and the rest fight the Indian and Dutch batns in Kuching. There is even some SNLF broken up into companies for occupy Jolo and to make paratrooper things work and the companies can recombine and some of the batns can recombine too but a regiment is as big as a unit is except for the PI army. PI army has some divisions but they are very small to begin and nobody in the PI gets reinforcements so they can just get smaller.

MO

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

Hi Mac
That is how this scenarios is set up. Like the Japanese 48 division has a division HQ that reports to 14 Army until it changes to 16 Army and it has pieces that report to 48 Division HQ. 1 Taiwan, 2 Taiwan, 47 infantry, 48 recon, and 3 artillery battalions with 75mm guns and 1 with 10cm howitzers. And the other ones are broken up the same way.

> MO - this is very impressive, a realistic breakdown and representation of the Japanese Order Of Battle; the Babes Team is doing some serious historical research.

Sometimes a infantry regiment is broken up into battalions like the III/33rd called the Miura detachment on Davao when the rest of the 33rd was on Lamon Bay. And the Kawaguchi brigade has a Kawaguchi HQ unit and the 124 infantry is broken up into I/II/III batns so that Oka can make his barges conquests of Borneo and the rest fight the Indian and Dutch batns in Kuching. There is even some SNLF broken up into companies for occupy Jolo and to make paratrooper things work and the companies can recombine and some of the batns can recombine too but a regiment is as big as a unit is except for the PI army. PI army has some divisions but they are very small to begin and nobody in the PI gets reinforcements so they can just get smaller.

> What is so remarkable about the Japanese expansion into Malya and the Dutch East Indies, is that Japan, using only a very small percent of her ground forces, supported by a professionally trained and equipped Navy, was able to project its will and accomplish its goals over very long distances - against a numerically superior opponent. Not to mention first class staff work (Colonel Tsuji, war criminal he may be, had it together when planning for ops - comes to mind). When we read about "row boat invasions", The Babes Team makes it a reality - by giving the player numerous small battalion sized units / detachments - of superior training and morale - to accomplish the task. This arrangement of forces is necessary, because the majority of the IJA was tied up in China, Manchukuo and, of course, the Home Islands. With the Babes approach - Battalions and Regiments - a player would be wise to do his staff work - prep the target, have supporting air and naval gunfire support on hand - to coordinate and thus optimize the chance of success in an invasion or combat resolution. Furthermore, if the supporting arms (artillery) is separate, a player has the flexibility to concentrate his firepower where needed.

> All of this gives new meaning to "Kimura / Miura or Kanno Detachment". These smaller formations were what was usually available to get the job done; saving the Imperial Guards Division or 65th Infantry Brigade Heavies (with the conmensurate increase in difficulty to support larger units logistically - especially shipping - at expended distances - often through hostile waters) for the final assault (carefully planned - one would hope - it's all in the logistics and planning) on a major City or Fortress - such as Singapore / Bataan / Soerabaja or Batavia.

MO

OK - keep up the good work, Gents. We (the silent majority!) truly appreciate you attention to detail, and commitment to quality work. The map revisions are also worth of note - I salute the Team.

Banzai / Semper Fi (your choice)

Mac

P.S. - and this is just the beginning..... There is no reason why AE should not continue to evolve and improve; that time only lends maturity and experience to each of the modification team's efforts.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

Hi Mac
That is how this scenarios is set up. Like the Japanese 48 division has a division HQ that reports to 14 Army until it changes to 16 Army and it has pieces that report to 48 Division HQ. 1 Taiwan, 2 Taiwan, 47 infantry, 48 recon, and 3 artillery battalions with 75mm guns and 1 with 10cm howitzers. And the other ones are broken up the same way.

> MO - this is very impressive, a realistic breakdown and representation of the Japanese Order Of Battle; the Babes Team is doing some serious historical research.

Sometimes a infantry regiment is broken up into battalions like the III/33rd called the Miura detachment on Davao when the rest of the 33rd was on Lamon Bay. And the Kawaguchi brigade has a Kawaguchi HQ unit and the 124 infantry is broken up into I/II/III batns so that Oka can make his barges conquests of Borneo and the rest fight the Indian and Dutch batns in Kuching. There is even some SNLF broken up into companies for occupy Jolo and to make paratrooper things work and the companies can recombine and some of the batns can recombine too but a regiment is as big as a unit is except for the PI army. PI army has some divisions but they are very small to begin and nobody in the PI gets reinforcements so they can just get smaller.

> What is so remarkable about the Japanese expansion into Malya and the Dutch East Indies, is that Japan, using only a very small percent of her ground forces, supported by a professionally trained and equipped Navy, was able to project its will and accomplish its goals over very long distances - against a numerically superior opponent. Not to mention first class staff work (Colonel Tsuji, war criminal he may be, had it together when planning for ops - comes to mind). When we read about "row boat invasions", The Babes Team makes it a reality - by giving the player numerous small battalion sized units / detachments - of superior training and morale - to accomplish the task. This arrangement of forces is necessary, because the majority of the IJA was tied up in China, Manchukuo and, of course, the Home Islands. With the Babes approach - Battalions and Regiments - a player would be wise to do his staff work - prep the target, have supporting air and naval gunfire support on hand - to coordinate and thus optimize the chance of success in an invasion or combat resolution. Furthermore, if the supporting arms (artillery) is separate, a player has the flexibility to concentrate his firepower where needed.

> All of this gives new meaning to "Kimura / Miura or Kanno Detachment". These smaller formations were what was usually available to get the job done; saving the Imperial Guards Division or 65th Infantry Brigade Heavies (with the conmensurate increase in difficulty to support larger units logistically - especially shipping - at expended distances - often through hostile waters) for the final assault (carefully planned - one would hope - it's all in the logistics and planning) on a major City or Fortress - such as Singapore / Bataan / Soerabaja or Batavia.

MO

OK - keep up the good work, Gents. We (the silent majority!) truly appreciate you attention to detail, and commitment to quality work. The map revisions are also worth of note - I salute the Team.

Banzai / Semper Fi (your choice)

Mac

P.S. - and this is just the beginning..... There is no reason why AE should not continue to evolve and improve; that time only lends maturityand experience to each of the modification team's efforts.

+1

[JWE]

MO is getting antsy to post a first look at the scenario, so it will probably be up a bit later today. It’s not playable yet, but it does have all (most) the elements broken down for Japan so people can look and see what’s up. There will be some confusion with the HQs so thought I would give a quick explanation.

Things are (kinda) set at the early Jan 1942 time frame. Southern Fleet was disbanded (renamed) and Ozawa and staff became 1st Southern Expeditionary Fleet on Jan 3, ‘42. Then 3rd Fleet (Takahashi) evolved to 3rd Southern Expeditionary Fleet on March 10, ’42 and also became known as SW Area Fleet on April 10, ’42. Bits and pieces of 3rd Fleet were activated as 3rd Southern Expeditionary Fleet (Sugiyama) on Jan 3, ’42 with responsibility for the PI. Both 1st and 3rd SoExpFlts were structurally dotted line to SW Area but that was because they were in the “SW Area” of ops, not because they were necessarily under “command” of SW Area Flt.

In addition to all this, the fleets (under their several names) were designated as area forces for the DEI op: Eastern Borneo, Celebes, Ambon, Timor, Bali, and Eastern Java (Soerabaja) were the responsibility of Eastern Force (Takahashi, aka 3rd, 2nd SoExp, SW Area, Fleet(s)); Sumatra, Banka, and Western Java (Batavia) were the responsibility of Western Force (Ozawa, aka Southern and 1st SoExp, Fleet(s)). Woof !!

So, what you get is just 1st, 2nd, 3rd Southern Expeditionary Fleets. You only get one rename in the editor, so 2nd SoExp gets renamed to SW Area on April 10, ’42. 1st and 3rd were in existence, with those names, at the time in question.

Naval Base Forces are no longer base forces, per se. They are Naval HQ units (radius 1) with their component parts being made up by separate units. Units (naval guard units, port units, sub base units, seaplane Ku support units) are assigned to their historically corresponding BFHQ and really should not be disturbed; the “package” should travel and operate as a “blop”.

A word of caution, the HQ leaders are the best we can do historically. When we could find the guy, we made him the leader. A lot of HQ leaders are actually “troop/unit” leaders in the database, so if you change them out of a HQ, they will not be able to come back, so you might not want to mess with them.

A final word of caution, the troop transports and the last of the Nav OOB units aren’t done yet. A lot of TFs are defined, with various Sentai identified and populated. These were done mostly to keep things in their appropriate historical units and assigned to their corresponding HQs, so they can do their opening week deeds with the forces actually at hand. Of course, one may disband or restructure these to one’s heart’s content. It’s just an organizational short cut.

Maybe a gazillion other things going on, but it’s hard to “have a lot o’ ‘splainin to do” up front. So take a look and take a while to digest it.

Ciao. J

[Anonymous]

And here it is.

[Anonymous]

And you want the map extras too.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

And here it is.

Yeah!

[stuman]

Thanks Guys for doing this ! It is much appreciated.

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

And you want the map extras too.

Thank you.

[Mac Linehan]

John, MO -

An exciting first look. Was so excited I had to go potty.

Thank You!

Mac

[berto]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

And here it is.

A game within a game. Amazing! And another dream come true. This is well worth the wait.

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: berto

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

And here it is.

A game within a game. Amazing! And another dream come true. This is well worth the wait.

+2

Mac!