Persistence is a virtue - Encircled (sov) vs Kamil (Axis)

[Aditia]

attacking from clear hex into mud hex seems like something that needs to be fixed to me; if it really negates offensive mud penalties that is. Just plain stupid. I applaud you for continuing the game

[Encircled]

I feel like I have to defend myself a bit here

Kamil was massively unfortunate with the mud, but all my best troops, my best generals (Tolbukin and Rokovossoky) and most of my air power were there.

To defend with as low CV's as they did (Totenkopf with a defence of "16"! On Turn 5!), then they must have had no supplies, no fuel and very high fatigue. Thats risky, whatever the weather and its one that I have to be honest that German players seem to think isn't that important (and it isn't, against the AI).

I have to be honest, and I thought that they would "rout"

And Gamey?

What am I supposed to do?

Not attack?

Nothing against my opponent here (and its not aimed at him), but I'm getting the distinct impression from some German players that they think that they can do what they want with their Panzers, and its just not on if the Russians actually do something about it.

Anyway, back to Kamil and his AAR (and it gets a lot better for the Germans!)

[KamilS]

Encircled

I feel like I have to defend myself a bit here

I think your performance defends itself.

You found yourself in favourable situation and exploited it perfectly. I can only applaud and weep. And of course take revenge.

Encircled

Anyway, back to Kamil and his AAR (and it gets a lot better for the Germans!)

I absolutely don't feel it that way. I hope it means some Easter presents for me.



Btw, here it is condition of destroyed formations at the end of my turn, prior to they surrender.

[Ridgeway]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I feel like I have to defend myself a bit here

Kamil was massively unfortunate with the mud, but all my best troops, my best generals (Tolbukin and Rokovossoky) and most of my air power were there.

To defend with as low CV's as they did (Totenkopf with a defence of "16"! On Turn 5!), then they must have had no supplies, no fuel and very high fatigue. Thats risky, whatever the weather and its one that I have to be honest that German players seem to think isn't that important (and it isn't, against the AI).

I have to be honest, and I thought that they would "rout"

And Gamey?

What am I supposed to do?

Not attack?

Nothing against my opponent here (and its not aimed at him), but I'm getting the distinct impression from some German players that they think that they can do what they want with their Panzers, and its just not on if the Russians actually do something about it.

Anyway, back to Kamil and his AAR (and it gets a lot better for the Germans!)

I think you are missing the point. The mud massively shortens potential supply lines, so those German units were isolated (as if you had encircled them). Consequently they cannot rout, the will either retreat or surrender.

There also may or may not be a game engine issue where a unit attacking out of a clear hex into a mud hex does not suffer any CV penalties, while the defending unit does. If that is indeed the case, doing so is "gamey" in the sense that it takes advantage of the game engine to create an artificial result. Of course it may be impossible to avoid given the setup of the units -- that is why I think random weather is not conducive to good games.

[squatter]

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I feel like I have to defend myself a bit here

Kamil was massively unfortunate with the mud, but all my best troops, my best generals (Tolbukin and Rokovossoky) and most of my air power were there.

To defend with as low CV's as they did (Totenkopf with a defence of "16"! On Turn 5!), then they must have had no supplies, no fuel and very high fatigue. Thats risky, whatever the weather and its one that I have to be honest that German players seem to think isn't that important (and it isn't, against the AI).

I have to be honest, and I thought that they would "rout"

And Gamey?

What am I supposed to do?

Not attack?

Nothing against my opponent here (and its not aimed at him), but I'm getting the distinct impression from some German players that they think that they can do what they want with their Panzers, and its just not on if the Russians actually do something about it.

Anyway, back to Kamil and his AAR (and it gets a lot better for the Germans!)

I think you are missing the point. The mud massively shortens potential supply lines, so those German units were isolated (as if you had encircled them). Consequently they cannot rout, the will either retreat or surrender.

There also may or may not be a game engine issue where a unit attacking out of a clear hex into a mud hex does not suffer any CV penalties, while the defending unit does. If that is indeed the case, doing so is "gamey" in the sense that it takes advantage of the game engine to create an artificial result. Of course it may be impossible to avoid given the setup of the units -- that is why I think random weather is not conducive to good games.

I think the accepted definition of gamey is something like "when a player deliberately takes advantage of a quirk in the game mechanics to produce a result that appears drastically a-historical"

Encircled didnt know that the German divisions were in effect isolated, and presumably didnt either know that his CVs would remain unaffected by the mud whereas his opponent's would be, and didn't realise that his attack would therefore result in a surrender rather than a retreat.

So while the quirk in the game engine is certainly there and if possible should be corrected, I dont think there's any way one could say that Encircled was being gamey.

[76mm]

Even if he knew, so what, was he not supposed to attack because of a goofy game mechanic? A house rule against attacks on the mud/clear border? That sounds pretty gamey to me....

[Manstein63]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Even if he knew, so what, was he not supposed to attack because of a goofy game mechanic?

I agree if you are playing random weather you have to expect this kind of thing it could easily go the other way the German player attacking into mud and it probably will at some point. However neither of the two players seem upset by it so we readers shouldn't be either.
Manstein63

[Ridgeway]

I tend to agree that Encircled wass "damned if he did and damned if he didnt". He could either make a "gamey" attack, or make no attack at all. Like I said above, the problem is using random weather -- the costs seem to me to far outweigh the benefits.

[Encircled]

I have to admit that random weather isn't my preferred option!

Looking at the supply, fatigue and fuel of Kamil's units, I'm surprised that they had such low CV's.

I don't think I'd play with random weather again, certainly in '41

Is it possible to switch to non-random at any time?

[KamilS]

Turn 7 - start

There was practically no fighting during Encircled's turn. He tried to de-block pocket in the south, but fortunately his forces were inadequate.

All along the front Soviets either occupy strong positions or were withdrawn to them. Overall situation doesn't look good. Only positive aspect of current stated of affairs are two bridgeheads across upped Dnepr. It gives me options.

There happened to be mud in southern zone, but its impact was as big as my commitment in that area ... 5% of my troops, no more.

[KamilS]

centre (7 start)

[KamilS]

south (7 start)

[KamilS]

Turn 7 - movement

In this turn I finally abandoned plans for pushing for Pskov - Vielkie Luki line and opted for much more limited solution - capturing territory just west of Vielkie Luki.

Progress was ... well, there was no progress. Most of my attacks were beaten back. Half measures equals no gain at all. It won't happened in the future. AGN won't have any tanks from now on.


In the centre using two bridgeheads across Dnepr I shifted direction of my thrust to south east. Unfortunately strong infantry was followed by weak panzers. I badly missed destroyed formations, postponing transfer of last two mobile units from AGN didn't help either. Nevertheless I made progress. 7 divisions were pocketed and what is more important width of front in AGC area was expanded.


AGS was less busy than usual. Most of surrounded divisions were destroyed and river Dnepr was approached in force. There is no chance of easy crossing. Encircled's defences near Kiev look strong.
In lower Dnepr area one panzer corps converted territory while rest of my armoured forces built up their supplies.


I managed to inflict very small casualties that turn, so overall situation is bad, pretty bad.

[KamilS]

centre (7 move)

[KamilS]

south (7 move)

[KamilS]

casualties (7 end)

[KamilS]

turn 8 - start

Previous turn turned out to be exception. Encircled's vicious counter-attacks in northern and central part of the front brought peaceful atmosphere of previous Soviet turn to sudden end.


My guess is, that AGN is now weaker than opposing forces. I will have to addresses this problem somehow.

My greater concern however was situations in the centre. Under determined attack ring of encirclement was broken. Fortunately, heroic 8th Panzer Division not only held bridgehead, but taught me were certain river Oster is.

In the south, near Kiev I was granted pleasure of seeing Soviet tanks in great numbers. Spotting strong garrison in Odessa wasn't great news either.

[KamilS]

north (8 start)

[KamilS]

centre (8 start)

[KamilS]

south (8 start)