bin Laden dead!

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MrRoadrunner
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by MrRoadrunner »

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: Lützow

.....an islamic state might have demanded the body to build a place of pilgrimage.


Muslims are against shrines and statues. The reason is that the people might worship these things instead of worshipping god.

So, none would be built.

In my view the body should have been sent to Saudi Arabia and let them deal with any backlash.

-




So the "rock" in the Dome of the Rock is meaningless. Or, what about Mecca? Or, every mosque that they do not mind shooting up but hate to see them shot up by Westerners? [:-]

And, yes a nice State funeral in Saudi Arabia would have been just great?
A mile down in the ocean is fine. Though I would have liked to seen the body on display, for a year, in the World Trade Center complex.
Just sayin', ya know.

RR
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Gil R.
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Gil R. »

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Not to be political, but what is it with Democrat presidents that they can't launch a raid without losing a helicopter? [:D]


Oops. I somehow forgot that eight servicemen were killed in Pres. Carter's failed 1980 raid. I was making fun of Carter, not that.
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Gil R.
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Gil R. »

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: Lützow

.....an islamic state might have demanded the body to build a place of pilgrimage.


Muslims are against shrines and statues. The reason is that the people might worship these things instead of worshipping god.

So, none would be built.

Surely, you realize that "shrine" has multiple definitions. (And no, I won't stop calling you "Shirley.")
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Fred98
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Fred98 »

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

So the "rock" in the Dome of the Rock is meaningless. Or, what about Mecca?


The "rock" and Mecca are both meaningless in this context.

You will note they have no statues nor shrines to their prophet Muhammad. Thats becasue they are supposed to worship god and not Muhammad.

The thing about sending the body to Saudi is that it becomes a test for the Saudis to see what side they are on.

-








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Prince of Eckmühl
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Thats becasue they are supposed to worship god and not Muhammad.

Helluva a deal, isn't it?

And its a shame that the similarities between Islam and the other two legs of the stool are so often lost on the rest of the world.
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goodwoodrw
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by goodwoodrw »

Howl me down if you please and my comment will probably cause the thread to be locked (and it probably should), but I've got big shoulders.
I wonder if ordinary people, military leaders and heads of of state would jumping up and down if the boot was on another foot and the Mossad unlawfully entered the U.S. in similar circumstances, in covert military operation to assassinate of a couple of Palestinian terrorists, probably not, would Britain, Spain or Germany unlawfully enter another European country to assassinate a Basque Separatists, IRA terrorist or Black September terrorist probably not! all these organizations have caused many deaths over the years, and sadly not only people are people around the celebrating the death of an individual, political leaders including my own Prime Minister openly condoning the deliberate killing of a human being.
What this really means is terrorism HAS WON! the Western and civilized world has stooped to the terrorists level, a sad world, I have nothing more to say on this subject, the quicker PCO and CMBN come out the better!

PS
For the record
I'm a non practicing Christian
I have more 30 years military service
More than 10 years in the justice department
and believe using all the necessary force to achieve the aim, but on the other hand I don't believe in the unnecessary celebration after the fact. ( we just need to do whats necessary and move on).
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Aurelian
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: BASB

Howl me down if you please and my comment will probably cause the thread to be locked (and it probably should), but I've got big shoulders.
I wonder if ordinary people, military leaders and heads of of state would jumping up and down if the boot was on another foot and the Mossad unlawfully entered the U.S. in similar circumstances, in covert military operation to assassinate of a couple of Palestinian terrorists, probably not, would Britain, Spain or Germany unlawfully enter another European country to assassinate a Basque Separatists, IRA terrorist or Black September terrorist probably not! all these organizations have caused many deaths over the years, and sadly not only people are people around the celebrating the death of an individual, political leaders including my own Prime Minister openly condoning the deliberate killing of a human being.
What this really means is terrorism HAS WON! the Western and civilized world has stooped to the terrorists level, a sad world, I have nothing more to say on this subject, the quicker PCO and CMBN come out the better!

PS
For the record
I'm a non practicing Christian
I have more 30 years military service
More than 10 years in the justice department
and believe using all the necessary force to achieve the aim, but on the other hand I don't believe in the unnecessary celebration after the fact. ( we just need to do whats necessary and move on).

Entebbe ring a bell?

And did any of the aforementioned nations have four jet liners sent on suicide missions?

Just what was the US suppossed to do? Send a card to bin Laden asking him if he would come out and give up? Pretty please with a cherry on top?

A better question to ask is just how Public Enemy #1 could live in a million dollar home next to a Pakistani military base with impunity?

Or why didn't Pakistan do anything to apprehend and turn him over? Great "ally" in this war on terror are they not?
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jomni
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by jomni »

I think espionage / covert ops isn't "terrorism" because these are targeted attacks instead of random mass murder.
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Fred98
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Fred98 »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Just what was the US suppossed to do? Send a card to bin Laden asking him if he would come out and give up?

Pretty please with a cherry on top?


The US tried that and it failed.

-

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tigercub
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by tigercub »

I have a WANTED DEAD or ALIVE news paper street poster made the day after the attack looks great...worth a few bucks now!
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dogancan
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by dogancan »

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
Muslims are against shrines and statues. The reason is that the people might worship these things instead of worshipping god.

partly true. only Wahabis are against shriens and statutes (i.e. al-qaeda, suudi arabia, talibans etc.).

Wahabism is a relatively new sect in sunni Islam, founded sometime in 18th century. Sponsored by Saudi Arabia, and they are by far the most fundamentalist, radical, oppressive, cruel interpretation of the Islamic texts. Not any other sect in Islam (inc. middle ages) come close to their radicalism. There WAS a shrine of the prophet of Islam there in Mecca, but Wahabis simply destroyed it.

There are lots of shrines in other islamic countries. In some, like Turkey, actually not only the muslim 'saints', but even the shrines of Christian saints are protected and 'worshipped' (though for the latter, commoners are not really aware of that fact).

Anyway, imo killing bin laden is only a single step with lots of symbolic meaning but not so much actual benefit. AFAIK he was not the de facto leader of al qaeda in the last years anyway. international coalition must struggle against the spread of wahabism, and dare to challenge saudis who are sponsoring this sect with billions of dollars. It is this belief which provides the ideological ground of al-qaeda and promises heaven for killing innocents merely because they are the 'others'.

there are a lot more tolerant interpretations of islam (alevism, sufism, etc.), albeit most of these are only prevalent in non-arab muslim communities. Lots of info on these in wikipedia.
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ilovestrategy
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by ilovestrategy »

ORIGINAL: BASB

but on the other hand I don't believe in the unnecessary celebration after the fact. ( we just need to do whats necessary and move on).


Wrong. For us Americans it is a VERY necessary celebration. I've been walking on air ever since we got the news. I've waited almost 10 years for this moment. Hell, here's a brewsky!
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Jim D Burns
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: BASB

Howl me down if you please and my comment will probably cause the thread to be locked (and it probably should), but I've got big shoulders.
I wonder if ordinary people, military leaders and heads of of state would jumping up and down if the boot was on another foot and the Mossad unlawfully entered the U.S. in similar circumstances, in covert military operation to assassinate of a couple of Palestinian terrorists, probably not, would Britain, Spain or Germany unlawfully enter another European country to assassinate a Basque Separatists, IRA terrorist or Black September terrorist probably not! all these organizations have caused many deaths over the years, and sadly not only people are people around the celebrating the death of an individual, political leaders including my own Prime Minister openly condoning the deliberate killing of a human being.
What this really means is terrorism HAS WON! the Western and civilized world has stooped to the terrorists level, a sad world, I have nothing more to say on this subject, the quicker PCO and CMBN come out the better!

PS
For the record
I'm a non practicing Christian
I have more 30 years military service
More than 10 years in the justice department
and believe using all the necessary force to achieve the aim, but on the other hand I don't believe in the unnecessary celebration after the fact. ( we just need to do whats necessary and move on).


You’re ignoring one glaring fact in the equation. Let’s assume for arguments sake some radical Catholic sect began bombing civilian targets in Islamic countries and killing thousands of innocent people all in the name of their warped religious interpretations.

Now assume they hid out in any western nation you care to name to avoid repercussions for their acts by the victim Islamic nations.

The glaring fact is, without exception every single western nation would hunt down and capture or kill these individuals without any prodding at all from the victimized Islamic nations. They would then gladly extradite any surviving criminals to these Islamic nations to be held to answer for their crimes.

Now let's look at the real world again. While some of the Islamic nations these Muslim terrorists are hiding in do occasionally help our intelligence and military operations, not one of them is actively pursuing terrorists on their own accord. And none of them would do a dam thing if not for the pressure brought on them by western nations.

So we victim nations are left with very few choices, all of them bad. Do nothing and let our people die, declare war on the nations harboring the terrorists and hold them to account for their inaction, or act unilaterally and ignore the sovereignty of the nations in question.

Were Islamic nations actually concerned about the west, they’d do something about terrorism within their own borders and there would be no need for the rotten situation the world faces today. But the fact is they view these terrorists as doing Allah’s work and probably applaud their actions in private.

Jim
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Zap
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Zap »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: bairdlander
No photo's of body to be released as he was shot in the face.And the body is gone.Why would they give him quick funeral?Why give him such luxury?[&:]

They wear headcams during these kinds of raids, so there is more than a photo out there, they've probably got video of the take down itself. The only logical reason I can think of to not release proof of death is to frighten his cohorts into thinking he is perhaps alive somewhere spilling the beans to US intelligence. Shake them up and see what happens when they scramble like rats to cover their asses.

Jim





I don't think that is a reason. Since they have gathered up all those hard drives and other information. With that treasure- trove of information. I think many of his cohorts will be legitimately worrying. When the Usa will be coming for them?
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by E »

ORIGINAL: BASB
What this really means is terrorism HAS WON! the Western and civilized world has stooped to the terrorists level, a sad world

I agree with the sentiment, but not the reasoning nor the application of the conclusion here. I think terrorism won when the US gave up citizen's rights in the name of terrorism (not to mention other "stooping").

However, _this_ situation is one I whole-heartedly applaud (and I'm anti-death penalty!).

As an aside, I do not think it was intended to be a killing and I think that's a silly assumption.
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: BASB

What this really means is terrorism HAS WON! the Western and civilized world has stooped to the terrorists level, a sad world, I have nothing more to say on this subject, the quicker PCO and CMBN come out the better!

I can't see it. There was no way any sort of arrest and trial was a viable possibility. If the Americans had informed the Pakistanis, he would have been gone never to return long before anybody got there to arrest him. If the SEALS had just grabbed him, any sort of trial would have been virtually impossible in view of the security requirements, quite apart from anything done in the meantime to 'persuade' the US authorities to release him. That left taking him out, or just leaving him there. There is no possible way Obama could have done the latter, so what other choice was there?

Sure it was an assassination in everything but name, but the Cold War era was full of those on both sides. E, I think the White House have confirmed capture was not in the plan. The objective was to find him and kill him. Obama made the right call, IMHO, and I really can't see any other US President or potential President having done otherwise. The only choice was how, and the only other suggestion I've heard was a cruise missile attack. Which would have a) hit a target less than 1km from a Pakistani military academy, b) hit a target in the middle of a residentiual area and c) would almost certainly have not provioded adequate proof of OBL's death. In other words, another complete non-starter.

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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by MrRoadrunner »

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

So the "rock" in the Dome of the Rock is meaningless. Or, what about Mecca?


The "rock" and Mecca are both meaningless in this context.

You will note they have no statues nor shrines to their prophet Muhammad. Thats becasue they are supposed to worship god and not Muhammad.

The thing about sending the body to Saudi is that it becomes a test for the Saudis to see what side they are on.

-

There is truth in your words about images of the "prophet".
But, that is not what your original message stated.

They do have shrines and they have "holier than holy" shrines. But, that is another issue again?

Sending the body to the Saudis would have been a meaningless gesture that could potentially stirred the pot to create a greater martyr?

We kinda agree. But, I think we see it from different angles?

[8|]


RR
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― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: tigercub

I have a WANTED DEAD or ALIVE news paper street poster made the day after the attack looks great...worth a few bucks now!
Last year my wife got me a gift certificate to a local gun shop where you could rent a fully automatic weapon (or two) for a fee. I chose a Bren .303 and a .45 Thompson SMG. Both were great fun. I selected Osama Bin Laden targets for the occasion, which I gleefully shot to pieces. I wonder if those are collectibles now too!
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Aurelian
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Hertston
ORIGINAL: BASB

What this really means is terrorism HAS WON! the Western and civilized world has stooped to the terrorists level, a sad world, I have nothing more to say on this subject, the quicker PCO and CMBN come out the better!

I can't see it. There was no way any sort of arrest and trial was a viable possibility. If the Americans had informed the Pakistanis, he would have been gone never to return long before anybody got there to arrest him. If the SEALS had just grabbed him, any sort of trial would have been virtually impossible in view of the security requirements, quite apart from anything done in the meantime to 'persuade' the US authorities to release him. That left taking him out, or just leaving him there. There is no possible way Obama could have done the latter, so what other choice was there?

Sure it was an assassination in everything but name, but the Cold War era was full of those on both sides. E, I think the White House have confirmed capture was not in the plan. The objective was to find him and kill him. Obama made the right call, IMHO, and I really can't see any other US President or potential President having done otherwise. The only choice was how, and the only other suggestion I've heard was a cruise missile attack. Which would have a) hit a target less than 1km from a Pakistani military academy, b) hit a target in the middle of a residentiual area and c) would almost certainly have not provioded adequate proof of OBL's death. In other words, another complete non-starter.


If, as he claims. the West stooped to terriost levels, it would of been carpet bombing by a squadron or two of B-52s instead of SEALS.
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E
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RE: bin Laden dead!

Post by E »

ORIGINAL: Hertston
E, I think the White House have confirmed capture was not in the plan. The objective was to find him and kill him.
News to me (surprising, and a bit morally "wrong." But not sad or disheartening in this case. More like... "happy-making - jig dancing - happy feet - sort of crazy.").
ORIGINAL: Hertston
and c) would almost certainly have not provioded adequate proof of OBL's death.

The situation, as I've heard it, is a conspiracy theorist's wet dream already.
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