Several issues arising out of game.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

ORIGINAL: CV 2
...

Green button.

Long ago and well deserved!

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Before this devolves into the usual, must return, for just a moment, to the intent of the OP. Jonathan and Ramon have both commented on the apparent lack of AT for Chinese units. While I do agree Chinese units are quite thin in this respect, I must suggest ya'll take a look at Treespider v witpqs's AAR at tm.asp?m=2754161, where a bunch of Chinese units (ordinary Corps stuff) attack a Japanese stack with a bunch of Infantry and a pantload of Tank Regiments, and absolutely smoke them; 72% casualties (killed or disrupted, mostly killed) to vehicle units. Several other Combat Reports, at other places, show Tank/Vehicle devices incurring reasonable casualties.

Spidey and witpqs are playing Spidey's mod which is based on Babes. Really think that Babes data tweaks (in this area) represent a noticeable improvement in combat outcomes.

Ramon, Jonathan, take a vacation in the Balearics (and invite me along). When you come back, try out a Babes scenario. Ciao. J

Thanks for the referral! [:)]

You all know about Babes. What Treespider did in addition was (in no particular order):

• Make a bunch of industry centers in North America that must be repaired, so supply available from North America starts out low and ramps up over time.
• Changed certain production parameters so places like Palembang (and maybe all refineries?) produce squat for supply.
• Reduced the size of various airfields with an eye toward slowing things down.
• Made big changes to the Japanese economy with the aim of putting more historical stress on the Japanese merchant fleet. The idea being that those ships would be required to carry back to Japan much more stuff than has been seen in AARs so far.
• Added many bases and tiny "political" units in China to simply act as molasses to slow down advances.
• Increased garrison requirements in China for both sides.
• Added oil and resources at the Panama Canal which can be shipped to Australia to keep the civilian economy going.
• Along with a change in at least one of the Babes scenarios, various ships' cargo capacities are reduced so as to require more trips (or ships) to move the same amount of supply.

Some house rules are required to keep it real, such as the Allied player can not turn off industry or repairs to industry except in China. So, you've got to bring that fuel into Australia to keep industry going (and resources too).

I'm certain I omitted 27 things Treespider did, so maybe he'll chime in with anything critical I missed or more detail.

As the thread is about China: So far, China is working out quite well. The point was to make China much more of the stalemate that it was in real life and the changes are doing that. The availability of Japanese offensive power is reduced. Chinese offensive power is a bit less than it was (owing to higher garrison requirements), and the Chinese have a greater ability to harass the Imperial supply lines. We have not yet gotten to the point where the Chinese are supply-starved, as the Burma road only recently closed.

The Chinese still, however, lack much real offensive punch. The attack in question was a two-stage affair. First, the Imperial troops attacked what they probably thought was a smaller force than it actually was. It was in reality more than twice their size (and AV) and somewhat dug in. The attack went badly, blunting the IJA units and certainly burdening them with disruption. The second stage was that the Chinese shock attacked, purely opportunistically. The attack went well, definitely aided by the failed IJA attack the day before.

In China, use good defensive terrain. Concentrate enough troops. Don't get cut off. Use interior lines to redeploy as needed. Threaten and cut off the IJA's supply lines. Build forts. Counter enemy offensives with offensives in other areas that the IJA is compelled to address. Give your troops time for the at-start disabled squads to repair. Pay attention to your units' experience, morale, fatigue, and disruption. Except in really overwhelming numbers, Chinese units will not be good offensive units until their experience is in the mid-50s.

Hope this helps.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: CV 2



All that would have to be done to prevent this is to not make HQs able to change commands. Pretty simple fix. Hell, that isnt even a code change, thats a database change. I remember everyone saying that changing 2nd air army and releasing almost all the Manchurian air units was "gamey" until Elf said that was the way he designed it. Well, same thing. I cant believe that after what? 4 years now from test to current no one has ever encountered this? You can safely assume it was. And since thats the way it is, then it was probably intended to be that way.

You are taking Ian's comments on this matter out of context. Ian stated it's working as designed but the design intent was not to circumvent the political point system , which you're doing.

[jeffk3510]

If you have 5 dollars and Chuck Norris has 5 dollars, he has more than you. [8|]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: JWE

Before this devolves into the usual, must return, for just a moment, to the intent of the OP. Jonathan and Ramon have both commented on the apparent lack of AT for Chinese units. While I do agree Chinese units are quite thin in this respect, I must suggest ya'll take a look at Treespider v witpqs's AAR at tm.asp?m=2754161, where a bunch of Chinese units (ordinary Corps stuff) attack a Japanese stack with a bunch of Infantry and a pantload of Tank Regiments, and absolutely smoke them; 72% casualties (killed or disrupted, mostly killed) to vehicle units. Several other Combat Reports, at other places, show Tank/Vehicle devices incurring reasonable casualties.

Spidey and witpqs are playing Spidey's mod which is based on Babes. Really think that Babes data tweaks (in this area) represent a noticeable improvement in combat outcomes.

Ramon, Jonathan, take a vacation in the Balearics (and invite me along). When you come back, try out a Babes scenario. Ciao. J

Thanks for the referral! [:)]

You all know about Babes. What Treespider did in addition was (in no particular order):

• Make a bunch of industry centers in North America that must be repaired, so supply available from North America starts out low and ramps up over time.
• Changed certain production parameters so places like Palembang (and maybe all refineries?) produce squat for supply.
• Reduced the size of various airfields with an eye toward slowing things down.
• Made big changes to the Japanese economy with the aim of putting more historical stress on the Japanese merchant fleet. The idea being that those ships would be required to carry back to Japan much more stuff than has been seen in AARs so far.
• Added many bases and tiny "political" units in China to simply act as molasses to slow down advances.
• Increased garrison requirements in China for both sides.
• Added oil and resources at the Panama Canal which can be shipped to Australia to keep the civilian economy going.
• Along with a change in at least one of the Babes scenarios, various ships' cargo capacities are reduced so as to require more trips (or ships) to move the same amount of supply.

Some house rules are required to keep it real, such as the Allied player can not turn off industry or repairs to industry except in China. So, you've got to bring that fuel into Australia to keep industry going (and resources too).

I'm certain I omitted 27 things Treespider did, so maybe he'll chime in with anything critical I missed or more detail.

A large number of the Kwantung Army units are now permanently restricted and thus cannot be bought with PP. This includes much of the artillery, AA, engineer, and armor assets which add little to the Manchukuo garrison Requirement. In regular games most players strip the Kwantung Army of these assets, something which did not happen IRL. When coupled with the HR preventing units from leaving Manchuria/Korea without paying PP it does create even more of the strain felt by the Japanese IRL.

As the thread is about China: So far, China is working out quite well. The point was to make China much more of the stalemate that it was in real life and the changes are doing that. The availability of Japanese offensive power is reduced. Chinese offensive power is a bit less than it was (owing to higher garrison requirements), and the Chinese have a greater ability to harass the Imperial supply lines. We have not yet gotten to the point where the Chinese are supply-starved, as the Burma road only recently closed.

The Chinese still, however, lack much real offensive punch. The attack in question was a two-stage affair. First, the Imperial troops attacked what they probably thought was a smaller force than it actually was. It was in reality more than twice their size (and AV) and somewhat dug in. The attack went badly, blunting the IJA units and certainly burdening them with disruption. The second stage was that the Chinese shock attacked, purely opportunistically. The attack went well, definitely aided by the failed IJA attack the day before.

I thought if I massed tanks with some quality Inf Div. I would have been able to achieve more. I do believe part of my failure was a lack of PREP. I've found that PREP is more important than it once was. I failed to prep for the dotbase in which George's army was located. In normal AE and other versions the hex in question would not have had a base...in my version most cultivated hexes in China have a dot base.

The extra bases create an opportunity for the Chinese to prep for far more fall back positions than regular AE. In addition the extra bases and Political units help to create a smoke screen that the Chinese can use to hide regular army units that can be used to harass LOCs "behind" my lines.

For screen shots see my brief AAR HERE

In China, use good defensive terrain. Concentrate enough troops. Don't get cut off. Use interior lines to redeploy as needed. Threaten and cut off the IJA's supply lines. Build forts. Counter enemy offensives with offensives in other areas that the IJA is compelled to address. Give your troops time for the at-start disabled squads to repair. Pay attention to your units' experience, morale, fatigue, and disruption. Except in really overwhelming numbers, Chinese units will not be good offensive units until their experience is in the mid-50s.

Hope this helps.

[witpqs]

Good point about the prep. The Chinese host was not prepped for that base either (except for that one tiny political unit), so it would have helped whichever side did it.

[el cid again]

If AE OB is similar to WITP
China is vastly too weak. Also, allegedly China is weak in supplies. IRL it was a source of supplies for both sides - the Chinese traded with the enemy!
Not entirely for wrong headed reasons. Reality is different in China.

There are almost no AT weapons in China - and little AT expertise. It was IJA that had dedicated AT teams in infantry squads, not China. The Japanese concept was at least backed by some weapons and tactics too. No one was even trying most of that in China. So AT values may be correct.

But the Chinese OB is huge. And Chinese units live off the land - something I was able to simulate in WITP - but probably absent in AE. Chinese units should rebuild slowly if left alone - invisibly as it were.

A problem is that the Chinese spend more time fighting other Chinese than the Japanese. Another problem is that Chinese in huge numbers served Japan - if "Chinese" applies to all the nationalities involved. Many of these units were even worse than ROC units - but they do work as garrison forces. Is this modeled in AE?

ORIGINAL: cantona2

As you are aware Ramon (Fletcher) and I have recently given up our game, played under the last official patch. Several issues have arisen that we feel need addressing or discussed.

1) Chinese OOB, Chinese AT values and relative weakness of Chinese Corps. China seems very, very weak in the field. Several encounters, after having made the best possible leadership changes and ensuring a decent force ratio, resulted in massive losses for China in the region of 80-85% vs 1 or 2% Japanese. If this happened once or twice then fair enough. I happened wih increasing frequency, sometimes even with fully supplied units in good defensive terrain.

Chinese AT values are laughable. One Cavalry Corps in wooded terrain could not dislodge a Japanese armoured regiment. I think I mentioned in my AAR that not even the vaunted early war Panzer Regiments could have done this. I accept that anti-tank gun capacity in Chinese TO&E's has to be low but why are AT values for squads so low? A dedicated aerial campaign in China backed by a few divisions and a lot of armour can blitz its way to Chungking.

This is not sour grapes as if I am out maneouvered in the field then so be it and no moaning but China seems to be the house of cards Hitler though Russia was going to be.

2) Coordination issues on both sides. Ramon explains it very well in his AAR section on the first counter attacks on the USMC toehold on Lunga. I had a very similar problem in my tentative counter in the Arakan. All supporting fields (most level 5 one or two 8+) had at least one RAAF Group HQ on them as well as X2 supplies, as well as a theatre air HQ at Dacca. First attack on Akyab, 150+ fighters (following established forum doctrine for escorts) did not show, neither did the sweeps (weather ok and so on as bombers took off from same bases), cue 40+ bombers shot down. End of bomber support for attack.

3) Dud rate is baffling. One merchant ship got hit by 9 duds in one sole attack, 14 in total in a chain of attacks from Milne Bay to Merauke via PM and HI. I get the hisorical dud question and love its in the game but it seemed in this game that the Dutch, British and S-Boat subs were also having an excessively high dud rate. Especially against military targets, I think 5 of his carriers were hit by duds (only the Kaga had an explosion). This issue also occured in my game vs Local Yokel in WITP vanilla days. We commented that MSW's and PG's were torpedo magnets but all other military targets swallowed dud after dud.

4) The invulnerabiliy of 4e's unescorted during daylight raids also raised some concerns. OK for the AFB (me) but very frustrating for the JFB (him). He'd lose more fighters than I bombers, thats including flak and ops losses. Sometimes 12 bombers vs 50 fighters and still he'd lose maybe two or three planes, the eggs dropped on the target and maybe one op loss on the way back.

5) Naval bombardments also seemed eschewed. The North Carolina managed to inflict 300+ casualties on the defenders of Lunga, but when the whole IJN battleline pummelled my marines I actually lost 2 squads (after FOW, confirmed by me when I run the turn). I would say that after the bombardment I was still at 90-92% fighting strength. This also after raids by KB and a lot of LBA (fort level never went beyond 3 do not know what level Ramon had when I landed). These same Marines then fought back two IJA attacks by three, according to Ramon elite and 100% prepped, divisons. By this point I had 20 supply on Lunga.

We both love the game but felt very strongly about these issues to sop playing. I am already used to playing without carriers so the Battle of the Solomons had no impact on our decision, as a matter of fact the game continued for a few weeks afer he defeat at sea. Ramon has stated that had I pounded Rangoon from Northern Oz, due to the ease the 4e's have in getting to the target, I would have cut off all supply to the Solomons.

Anyhow thanks for the time in reading this and do not take it as a 'I hate this game and I am leaving rant', rather as an 'we both love the game and want as much as possible to see it improved' post.

Cantona2

[el cid again]

I gather from Mifune that aircraft performance suffers from failure to get into the nitty gritty of what the data means? He use RHS values (modified for
AE scale) and found far better effects. It took YEARS to figure out how the fields work - and just plugging in numbers without regard to code isn't going
to produce realistic effects. I am going to experiment with this - and if it can be addressed - or if Mifune's values already have done that comprehensively - we may issue scenarios simply incorporating those values in otherwise unchanged scenarios.

ORIGINAL: cantona2

As you are aware Ramon (Fletcher) and I have recently given up our game, played under the last official patch. Several issues have arisen that we feel need addressing or discussed.

1) Chinese OOB, Chinese AT values and relative weakness of Chinese Corps. China seems very, very weak in the field. Several encounters, after having made the best possible leadership changes and ensuring a decent force ratio, resulted in massive losses for China in the region of 80-85% vs 1 or 2% Japanese. If this happened once or twice then fair enough. I happened wih increasing frequency, sometimes even with fully supplied units in good defensive terrain.

Chinese AT values are laughable. One Cavalry Corps in wooded terrain could not dislodge a Japanese armoured regiment. I think I mentioned in my AAR that not even the vaunted early war Panzer Regiments could have done this. I accept that anti-tank gun capacity in Chinese TO&E's has to be low but why are AT values for squads so low? A dedicated aerial campaign in China backed by a few divisions and a lot of armour can blitz its way to Chungking.

This is not sour grapes as if I am out maneouvered in the field then so be it and no moaning but China seems to be the house of cards Hitler though Russia was going to be.

2) Coordination issues on both sides. Ramon explains it very well in his AAR section on the first counter attacks on the USMC toehold on Lunga. I had a very similar problem in my tentative counter in the Arakan. All supporting fields (most level 5 one or two 8+) had at least one RAAF Group HQ on them as well as X2 supplies, as well as a theatre air HQ at Dacca. First attack on Akyab, 150+ fighters (following established forum doctrine for escorts) did not show, neither did the sweeps (weather ok and so on as bombers took off from same bases), cue 40+ bombers shot down. End of bomber support for attack.

3) Dud rate is baffling. One merchant ship got hit by 9 duds in one sole attack, 14 in total in a chain of attacks from Milne Bay to Merauke via PM and HI. I get the hisorical dud question and love its in the game but it seemed in this game that the Dutch, British and S-Boat subs were also having an excessively high dud rate. Especially against military targets, I think 5 of his carriers were hit by duds (only the Kaga had an explosion). This issue also occured in my game vs Local Yokel in WITP vanilla days. We commented that MSW's and PG's were torpedo magnets but all other military targets swallowed dud after dud.

4) The invulnerabiliy of 4e's unescorted during daylight raids also raised some concerns. OK for the AFB (me) but very frustrating for the JFB (him). He'd lose more fighters than I bombers, thats including flak and ops losses. Sometimes 12 bombers vs 50 fighters and still he'd lose maybe two or three planes, the eggs dropped on the target and maybe one op loss on the way back.

5) Naval bombardments also seemed eschewed. The North Carolina managed to inflict 300+ casualties on the defenders of Lunga, but when the whole IJN battleline pummelled my marines I actually lost 2 squads (after FOW, confirmed by me when I run the turn). I would say that after the bombardment I was still at 90-92% fighting strength. This also after raids by KB and a lot of LBA (fort level never went beyond 3 do not know what level Ramon had when I landed). These same Marines then fought back two IJA attacks by three, according to Ramon elite and 100% prepped, divisons. By this point I had 20 supply on Lunga.

We both love the game but felt very strongly about these issues to sop playing. I am already used to playing without carriers so the Battle of the Solomons had no impact on our decision, as a matter of fact the game continued for a few weeks afer he defeat at sea. Ramon has stated that had I pounded Rangoon from Northern Oz, due to the ease the 4e's have in getting to the target, I would have cut off all supply to the Solomons.

Anyhow thanks for the time in reading this and do not take it as a 'I hate this game and I am leaving rant', rather as an 'we both love the game and want as much as possible to see it improved' post.

Cantona2

[el cid again]

5) Naval bombardments also seemed eschewed. The North Carolina managed to inflict 300+ casualties on the defenders of Lunga, but when the whole IJN battleline pummelled my marines I actually lost 2 squads

5) Naval bombardments also seemed eschewed. The North Carolina managed to inflict 300+ casualties on the defenders of Lunga, but when the whole IJN battleline pummelled my marines I actually lost 2 squads

I rationalize that to mean you called in fire on your own troops!

There are statistical things in code - a range of outcomes - it takes a hundred runs to get a sense of the data spread. A FEW strange outcomes is fine - actually good simulatoin.

[Nemo121]

When you have 5 dollars and Chuck Norris has 5 dollars, soon a smart man will ensure Chuck Norris has 10 dollars [8D]

[witpqs]

Chuck Norris can kick you so hard that eight generations from now one of your descendants will jump from a sharp pain on the side of his face and exclaim "What was that???"

[Fletcher]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

5) Naval bombardments also seemed eschewed. The North Carolina managed to inflict 300+ casualties on the defenders of Lunga, but when the whole IJN battleline pummelled my marines I actually lost 2 squads

5) Naval bombardments also seemed eschewed. The North Carolina managed to inflict 300+ casualties on the defenders of Lunga, but when the whole IJN battleline pummelled my marines I actually lost 2 squads

I rationalize that to mean you called in fire on your own troops!

There are statistical things in code - a range of outcomes - it takes a hundred runs to get a sense of the data spread. A FEW strange outcomes is fine - actually good simulatoin.

el cid again come back ! Nice !!....
One clarification about IJN bombardment mission over Lunga in my game vs Cantona2: I bombed 4 consecutive times with 5 BBs in the same month with same outcome! ... If one were with 2 USMC squad disabled, I´ll be agree, but 4 times is strange, ..very strange..!

Best wishes, and nice to see you again.
Ramón

[cantona2]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

5) Naval bombardments also seemed eschewed. The North Carolina managed to inflict 300+ casualties on the defenders of Lunga, but when the whole IJN battleline pummelled my marines I actually lost 2 squads

5) Naval bombardments also seemed eschewed. The North Carolina managed to inflict 300+ casualties on the defenders of Lunga, but when the whole IJN battleline pummelled my marines I actually lost 2 squads

I rationalize that to mean you called in fire on your own troops!

There are statistical things in code - a range of outcomes - it takes a hundred runs to get a sense of the data spread. A FEW strange outcomes is fine - actually good simulatoin.

Sorry El Cid, the NC was bombarding Japanese troops prelanding

[SqzMyLemon]

el cid again

I rationalize that to mean you called in fire on your own troops!

There are statistical things in code - a range of outcomes - it takes a hundred runs to get a sense of the data spread. A FEW strange outcomes is fine - actually good simulatoin.

In another PBEM I've got going, I've got Japanese forces ashore engaging Allied defenders at Luganville. In two separate bombardment attacks by BB's and CA's only my Japanese troops were hit. I lost just under 1000 casualties and massive disruption while my opponent suffered absolutely no losses. This should be an exception and not the rule. It seems for every one good bombardment result there are anywhere from 3-5 subpar ones. I've also encountered bombardments from Allied CL's and DD's that inflict more damage under similar circumstances than a force of Japanese BB's and CA's. I understand random results will occur, but bombardment seems off to me.

[Fletcher]

SqzMyLemon

Thanks a lot to share your experience

Best wishes
Ramón

[inqistor]

I made a quick research around Chinese AT values:
Device 371 Chinese Squad have AT 5, same as non-western countries, and same as Japan
Device 1311 75mm Gun, have actually similar AT, as other 75mm guns, and 90 penetration, which is better than all Japanese 75mm guns, except Type 90
Device 1308 37mm AT Gun, is actually better even from 47mm AT Japanese Gun (53 vs 52 AT, and 70 vs 65 penetration)

So all this is only because Chinese have so few guns in their units.
The only possible modification would be difference between 75mm Bofors Gun, which should be main Gun of China in 1941, and 75mm Pack Howitzer, which will be delivered, after war starts. Stock does not work this way, but my calculations, dependable of muzzle velocity, set AT strength at 32. Not really much more.
Anyway, clearly, if China is weak in AT power, Japan is even weaker. And they will face even more powerful tanks in future.

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

el cid again

I rationalize that to mean you called in fire on your own troops!

There are statistical things in code - a range of outcomes - it takes a hundred runs to get a sense of the data spread. A FEW strange outcomes is fine - actually good simulatoin.

In another PBEM I've got going, I've got Japanese forces ashore engaging Allied defenders at Luganville. In two separate bombardment attacks by BB's and CA's only my Japanese troops were hit. I lost just under 1000 casualties and massive disruption while my opponent suffered absolutely no losses. This should be an exception and not the rule. It seems for every one good bombardment result there are anywhere from 3-5 subpar ones. I've also encountered bombardments from Allied CL's and DD's that inflict more damage under similar circumstances than a force of Japanese BB's and CA's. I understand random results will occur, but bombardment seems off to me.

It was simple trick in WITP. When you used DDs in your bombardment force, you would get FAR better results.
I almost always get quite acceptable results of bombardments, but I usually bombard at point-blank, and include DDs in most cases.

Anyway, it will be easy to check, what was difference in these TFs, as you can check, and compare configuration of ships, and their guns statistics.

[Fletcher]

inquistor

In my own experience with BB Yamato, and another 4 BBs with CAs and DDs bombarding at short (2.000 yards) against LCUs at Lunga, I got 2 disabled USMC squads... this was the last of my bombardment mission over enemy ... frustrated after another 4 similar missions, I thought that was better be docked at Truk.

best wishes
ramón

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

It was simple trick in WITP. When you used DDs in your bombardment force, you would get FAR better results.
I almost always get quite acceptable results of bombardments, but I usually bombard at point-blank, and include DDs in most cases.

Anyway, it will be easy to check, what was difference in these TFs, as you can check, and compare configuration of ships, and their guns statistics.

Hi inqistor,

I should have pointed out that these bombardment groups all had 6 or more DD's included in the TF with escorts set to bombard. My point being that when you still consider there are 8" and 14" shells being lobbed at the enemy by the BB's and CA's on top of what the DD's are adding the results are quite poor more often than not.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: CV 2

Well truth be told, I think the "best" house rule (from my personal viewpoint, I dont expect everyone to agree) is to allow the 5 Chinese divisions to enter Burma, require Japan to maintain a minimum garrison (like Manchuria) and leave it. Neither side does anything (except HK of course). In my opinion, the game engine doesnt handle this theater very well.

But like I said, just my opinion.

I'd agree 100%. Historically, the campaign there had been pretty much of a stalemate for more than a year. One of the big reasons the IJA supported the war with the Western Powers was in hopes of cutting off aid to China. In the game this front if far too active and fluid. Simply shutting it down is the quickest fix for what will be a major "balancing act" if/when the designers ever choose to tackle it.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

I'd agree 100%. Historically, the campaign there had been pretty much of a stalemate for more than a year. One of the big reasons the IJA supported the war with the Western Powers was in hopes of cutting off aid to China. In the game this front if far too active and fluid. Simply shutting it down is the quickest fix for what will be a major "balancing act" if/when the designers ever choose to tackle it.

See Treespider's mod.