Night bombing need a fix

[herwin]

I'm definitely SOL. My copy of Morse and Kimball has taken a walk.

[herwin]

There are some calibration data in this.

[Crackaces]

I have not seen Michealm enter this discussion so I am going to start assuming this is a ballywick he is not going to tackle? The change in CAP without changing bomber behaviors has created a horrible gaming experince ...

I guess home rule is in order ..

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Imho where the game fails in the night air combat is that

a) bombers will always find the target
b) fighters will always find the bombers
c) bombers still get formation bonus and gunners fire normally, but
d) fighter efficiency is seriously nerfed by the night as is AAA fire

Leading to a situation where relative to bomber losses there are considerably more bomb hits and about 5 times more defending fighters shot down which is of course FUBAR. Add there that 4Es will never ever abort and you have a mess, and all bombers can fly as often as they'd fly daytime missions

When what we would WANT to have is a situation where bombers will generate 1/5 to 1/10 the bomb hits they are now doing, suffering 2-3x OPS losses(not counting OPS and writeoffs due AAA and CAP) while suffering more pilot fatigue to prevent flying every night for months(more fatigue would also generate more OPS losses), and where defending fighters will shoot down, depending on availability of ground and airborne radar, moonlight, weather, searchlights, pilot skill etc. absolute maximum 5-6% of the incoming bombers while themselves suffering very little losses to gunners and 2-3x OPS losses due to night compared to daylight CAP.

Current situation is why both me and my opponent agreed to not do night flying at all: not realistic, clearly not WAD and not fun.

Or am I how wrong?

I think your expectation of fighters "where defending fighters will shoot down, depending on availability of ground and airborne radar, moonlight, weather, searchlights, pilot skill etc. absolute maximum 5-6% of the incoming bombers " is too high.

This is the PTO, not the nights over Germany. I doubt, outside of the home islands, that fighters scored many kills. All of the other items should keep the number of bombers and their effect down.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: Erkki

Imho where the game fails in the night air combat is that

a) bombers will always find the target
b) fighters will always find the bombers
c) bombers still get formation bonus and gunners fire normally, but
d) fighter efficiency is seriously nerfed by the night as is AAA fire

Leading to a situation where relative to bomber losses there are considerably more bomb hits and about 5 times more defending fighters shot down which is of course FUBAR. Add there that 4Es will never ever abort and you have a mess, and all bombers can fly as often as they'd fly daytime missions

When what we would WANT to have is a situation where bombers will generate 1/5 to 1/10 the bomb hits they are now doing, suffering 2-3x OPS losses(not counting OPS and writeoffs due AAA and CAP) while suffering more pilot fatigue to prevent flying every night for months(more fatigue would also generate more OPS losses), and where defending fighters will shoot down, depending on availability of ground and airborne radar, moonlight, weather, searchlights, pilot skill etc. absolute maximum 5-6% of the incoming bombers while themselves suffering very little losses to gunners and 2-3x OPS losses due to night compared to daylight CAP.

Current situation is why both me and my opponent agreed to not do night flying at all: not realistic, clearly not WAD and not fun.

Or am I how wrong?

I think your expectation of fighters "where defending fighters will shoot down, depending on availability of ground and airborne radar, moonlight, weather, searchlights, pilot skill etc. absolute maximum 5-6% of the incoming bombers " is too high.

This is the PTO, not the nights over Germany. I doubt, outside of the home islands, that fighters scored many kills. All of the other items should keep the number of bombers and their effect down.

Yes, that is why I said absolute max 5-6%. That is what it was with good pilots, ground and airborne radar(and GCI which I dont think the Japanese really used outside Formosa and Home Islands?), lots of bombers and fighters in same area, searchlights, and not a terrible weather.

[CV 2]

The allies didnt fly massive bombing raids at night (until the firebombing raids in '45) EVERY NIGHT like players will do in the game. So to say that Japan didnt score many kills at night is a misnomer. Had the Japanese faced this in the real war, they likely would have developed a counter to it. Had the allies faced it, there likely would have been many more night fighters deployed.

And therein lies your problem with the GAME, and why it is "gamey" to do. A simple "house rule" of limiting 16 aircraft maximum per target on ports and airfields (unlimited vs city attacks), and no industry night raids (manpower only) I have found to be very workable.

[hades1001]

Guys thank for you inputs but I think a lot of you have missed my points.

Let's focus on the game not history. First of all, how come a whole Sentai of elite Tojo were shot down during their engagement with 4E bombmers, and all pilots KIA after shot down during the local CAP mission? What happened?

Secondly, how come night bombing achieve as good results as day bombing? despite the number of planes on the runway?

That's the things I think need to be fixed.

[CV 2]

House rules are the best solution you will get most likely. I wouldnt look for this to get "fixed" anytime soon (read that as 'ever').

[herwin]

That supports the suggestion that there needs to be a consensus collection of house rules to deal with the stuff that can't be fixed. When I brought the idea up recently (and was shouted down), that was what I was looking for. It could even be in this form:

Problem: describe the problem.

Discussion: problem details.

Recommended house rule or rules: with alternatives where suitable.

Perhaps the factors in choosing which house rule to use could be discussed--use rule set A against the AI; use rule set B for a historical game; use rule set C for a competitive game.

e.g.,

Problem: modelling ground combat

Discussion: the 1-day time scale and the 46-mile hex are hard to reconcile. The game engine is also weaker modelling mobile warfare and infiltration operations than it is modelling positional warfare. Finally, the game does not model combined arms operations well.

Recommended rules: There are three ways of addressing this. If both players want a competitive game and both are knowledgable about the behaviour of the ground combat engine, stacking and supply limits should be adequate to create a balanced ground game. If players want a more historical ground game, they will have to accept certain limitations on the realism that can be expect. The following set of rules should be in force: ...list of rules... Finally for games against the AI, the following house rules should be in force: ...list of rules...

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: CV 2

House rules are the best solution you will get most likely. I wouldnt look for this to get "fixed" anytime soon (read that as 'ever').

+1

Sadly. No concensus that there is even a problem. HR's can be formulated for PBEM. Against the AI, gonna have to break out the editor some more ... [:(]

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: CV 2

House rules are the best solution you will get most likely. I wouldnt look for this to get "fixed" anytime soon (read that as 'ever').

+1

Sadly. No concensus that there is even a problem. HR's can be formulated for PBEM. Against the AI, gonna have to break out the editor some more ... [:(]

Instead of thinking night and day . think two phases .. one in which the attacker has the advantage, and the second phase is a complex interaction of variables. If you look at it like that ...no home rule is needed to play the game. [8D]

[sandman455]

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Here is the results of night bombing from the latest patch.

Please take a look. Some tweak of the night air combat model may be necessary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Portland Roads , at 91,132

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 69



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 17
B-17F Fortress x 17
B-24D Liberator x 50


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 11 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Portland Roads , at 91,132

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 32



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 8 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 20000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, never read the actual combat report. [:(]

Yes there is something wrong. I have zero doubt. It's like there is something backwards in the code. Night fighter vs night bombing was usually a whole lot of nothing. Wasn't easy to use the radar sets and given the likelihood of there being no radar sets at all in your examples the chance of intercept would be small.

But should the fighters manage to find the formation, your average or even crappy fighter turned into a real killer. Almost anything, regardless of firepower or performance could get results if they could find and catch the bombers. This is just basic day vs night issues. Bomber is big, fighter is small. Who is going to see who first? Who is going to be able to set up a nice approach and have the target their sights for a long time? Who will be late suppressing - if at all? All of the things the bomber relied heavily on during the day for protection are out the window at night. And the results supported this conclusion.

Look at the performance records of any NJG group in Germany. There was only half a dozen or so. They probably had more aces per pilot assigned than any daytime group. And their pilots would tally multi-kill nights all the time - 4 or more in a single mission. You'd never see that during the day. Even the Japanese had very good success at night when they could actually get an intercept.

The fighter has a huge advantage at night and you would lose bombers by the handfuls, not fighters.

[Banzan]

German NFs were led by ground control close to their target. Easy over germany, impossible in the pacific.
Not sure if the japanese homeland had the same kind of "radar boxes" (not sure how they are called in english) like germany. Together with "schräge Musik" they made the german NFs very effective at start.

In 1942 during opperation Biting the allied got their hands on german radar equippment that allowed them to build counter measures later. German NF effency dropped a lot after these came into action.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Banzan

German NFs were led by ground control close to their target. Easy over germany, impossible in the pacific.

I've read accounts of it being done by USN carriers. I presume at least some US bases did it also.

[sandman455]

ORIGINAL: Banzan

German NFs were led by ground control close to their target. Easy over germany, impossible in the pacific.
Not sure if the japanese homeland had the same kind of "radar boxes" (not sure how they are called in english) like germany. Together with "schräge Musik" they made the german NFs very effective at start.

In 1942 during opperation Biting the allied got their hands on german radar equippment that allowed them to build counter measures later. German NF effency dropped a lot after these came into action.

Agree 100%.
But I'm not talking about making the intercept which was admittedly very hard to do. We are talking about fighters ACTUALLY finding the bombers at night and then getting shot down (slaughtered, really) without bomber losses. I personally can not reconcile the results in my head. If it were ops losses absolutely, but that's not what they are so I'm throwing my BS flag.

If anyone wants to explain it, I'm on the edge of my seat.

During daylight, there's plenty to justify fighters getting mauled by massed bomber formations and we have plenty of recorded history of just that. But at night the very things that let you obtain some parity with the fighters is seriously compromised. Just look at your typical night fighter. Bf-110's, Ki-45's and JU-88's were horrible during the day against fighters and only acceptable against unescorted bombers. But at night, they became aircraft capable of shooting done 6 bombers in a single mission?

Not surprisingly your typical ace night fighter pilot wasn't very good during the day either. It was a special skill to find and repeatedly attack bombers at night. It was a very disorienting engagement and I would think the ops losses would far exceed the losses to bomber defensive fire. But this is unsupported and unrelated to the game results in question.

The combat report clearly shows a bunch of bombers shooting down fighters at night. I do not know how. IMO the results have been mistakenly reversed. All historical evidence suggest fighters were capable of the reverse as well. Once a fighter had found the formation, it appears from reading the wiki on NJG1-5 that skilled night fighter pilots were able continue to attack over and over until out of fuel, ammo or lost contact with the formation. No where does it suggest these groups got chewed up by bombers.

[Cavalry Corp]

From what I read both sides made extensive use of night bombing - so HR are silly.

On the tech forum you will see the latest patch has addressed much of these issues including bombing accuracy etc etc. Also all NF will be getting better chances in future even ones withot Radar. However as Japan does not get a form NF until 44 I think that may still cause some worries. Same goes for the allies, Japs made extensive use of night bombing against which the allies to time as well to get NF going. Not sure on the date but the A20 NF appears in 43 I think.

Night bombing was a problem to both sides


Cav

[Barb]

I think that the problems you are facing are more attributable to players, than to the game.

If you compare your operational tempo and calculate number of sorties you produce per month - it is much much more than the real tempo of operations! And there is the root of all evil.

Using approximate numbers, I will try to illustrate:
Back in 1942, there were two heavy bomber groups in Australia (43rd and 19th) having about 55 heavies total. 19th was worn out outfit flying old B-17Ds, and some worn out B-17Es. 43rd was relatively fresh unit. Now of the 55 bombers about 25% was in overhaul (3rd/4th level maintenance, engine changes, etc.), leaving some 40 planes in units. Of these similar number was not combat ready (1st/2nd level maintenance, combat damage, etc.). Of the 25 planes that were combat ready - about half was needed for naval patrols - leaving us with about 12 planes to strike with. Of these half was in strike reserve (if someone bad shows up close) - and the other half was free for operations. In total about 6 planes for daily offensive missions!
And this was for much of the 1942 and 1943 as well!
So majority of 1942 combat missions against japanese positions and ships were flights of 3-12 planes. For example against Rabaul - a well defended target, this number of planes wasn't really sufficient to force a way in daylight, so they took to night.
"Wewak", "Bismarck Sea","Hollandia","Rabaul" missions in 1943 were major efforts IRL - putting every available plane in to air, and still they rarely numbered more than 50 Lightnings, 50 heavies and 60 strafers on deck. But players in 1943 in this area usually put up real armada - 120 Lightnings, 100 heavies, 60 mediums and 120 strafers for their major offensive effort. And keep this numbers in action continuously for 5 days. Thats about 2-3x number for 2-3x number of days. Voila - Japan suffered 5-10 times the losses suffered in reality!

79 Betties in one strike? At Night ? That can mean about 3+ Kokutais with 120 planes at one field. Even modern big airfields with multiple runways would have real headache to get them all to the air in a hour!

Use smaller packages of planes and you will see much better results! Rotate your units in and out of combat. Have about 1/3rd-1/2 of your planes in reserve.

Other thing is unstoppability of allied heavy bombers - 3 B-17s could fly into 65 Zeros, shot one down, damage twelve others, drop bombs on target and get away with one plane lightly damaged. No matter that those Zeros had best japanese pilots in game. And it would matter little if the jap pilots were in Ki-43, A6M2, Ki-44, Ki-61 Ki-84, J2M or N1K.

[Barb]

Also numbers of planes declared to be in theathers:
While the clerks in D.C. calculated that three 5th Air Force Fighter groups had full complement + 50% in reserve (about 300 for 3 groups of 3 squadrons or 450 for 3 groups of 4 squadrons) - the reality in Australia was different.
Some of the planes were still in U.S. - waiting for transports. Other were somewhere in the middle of Pacific. Others were in repair shops - to customize them. Still others needed maintenance, engine changes, overhauls.
Result: Fighter squadrons had seldom more than 75% operational planes. Leaving half of the planes for defense and reserve - no surprise that fighter squadrons flew 8 or 12 plane missions (2-3 flights)!

See it? US Fighter group in WITP:AE usually had 75 planes + 12 in reserve or 100 planes + 16 in reserve. Even having 50% CAP setting this group can send 30-50 planes for offensive mission per day.
US Fighter group in reality of SWPAC in reality had about 60 planes, of these were 45 operational (or 80 planes with 60 operational) with the same "CAP setting" can send 20-30 planes for offensive mission per day.

Its 1.5 to 2 times more than reality.

[Banzan]

Well, it works the same way in a smaller scale:

Night Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 28 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 9



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 2 destroyed

No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Yokohama Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (3 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes



---------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 45 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 4



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 4


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Yokohama Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes



---------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 36 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 1



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 4


No Japanese losses

No Allied losses



Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Yokohama Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes



---------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Port Moresby , at 98,130

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 24 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 1



Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 4


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Yokohama Ku S-1 with A6M2-N Rufe (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Raid is overhead


The bombercrews got kills, so in game terms the cap was shot down by the bombers.

[Erkki]

Amusing how they dont hit a thing with their bombs(and its airfield attack, not ground, port or naval, 15 B-17s only scored 1 hit), but have no trouble shooting down the CAP. [:D]