Hell bent on Lebensraum (no 821Bobo)

[vicberg]

I have to add to this. This game is getting a bit frustrating for me because I haven't muled at all. Turns 5-10 are critical for the Germans, the exact time that supply is a challenge. They have to isolate soviet units or push the Soviets into indefensible situations with armor fists or it becomes a snowball affect against the Germans where they face more Soviet units in defense, many set to reserve mode (and I would doubt that reserves suffer attrition for participating in the battle thought they are next to the enemy for combat and I wonder how much reserve mode CV is modified though they force marched up to 60 miles to the battle in some cases) and that slows the offensive even further.

I wouldn't mind the more intense fighting it if I didn't know what was coming down the road. I'm going to lose at least 1 - 1.5 million men during the blizzard. My forces will be severly depleted going into 42. The soviet OOB will continue to grow because I haven't done enough damage to soviet production or to the red army and there will be lines and lines of units in the front and in reserve mode in the back, making the 42 offensive difficult if not a waste.

The flip side is if I'm able to isolate or place the soviets into indefensible situations, which is what Pelton and Michaelt do consistently starting from turn 3 on through end of the 41 campaign season. The soviets have less troops, more difficult times establishing solid defense lines, allowing for holes to open for the Germans to further isolate or exploit. In other words, muling allows the germans to keep the soviets on their heels and that is a requirement for a good 42 campaign season.

[Flaviusx]

Vicberg, you do not need to mule in order to do well as the Axis. A good and highly experienced Axis player can easily duplicate the historical 1941 advance with Leningrad thrown in as a bonus. This is practically standard by now. Admittedly Soviet players are steeping up their game now that they've figured out reserves (but I also expect Axis blizzard play to improve for the same reason, along with the late war in general as a result of this.)

What muling lets you do is go beyond that and quite possibly end the game in 1941.

Sillyflower, I'm genuinely worried that more and more people will do this as time goes on. Folks like Scott or James or by your own admission yourself are perfectly capable of figuring it out and applying it. The only thing stopping you or them is the same thing that stops me from making 20 hex para drops -- it offends our sense of historicity. We know it's cheese.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

I have to add to this. This game is getting a bit frustrating for me because I haven't muled at all. Turns 5-10 are critical for the Germans, the exact time that supply is a challenge. They have to isolate soviet units or push the Soviets into indefensible situations with armor fists or it becomes a snowball affect against the Germans where they face more Soviet units in defense, many set to reserve mode (and I would doubt that reserves suffer attrition for participating in the battle thought they are next to the enemy for combat and I wonder how much reserve mode CV is modified though they force marched up to 60 miles to the battle in some cases) and that slows the offensive even further.

I wouldn't mind the more intense fighting it if I didn't know what was coming down the road. I'm going to lose at least 1 - 1.5 million men during the blizzard. My forces will be severly depleted going into 42. The soviet OOB will continue to grow because I haven't done enough damage to soviet production or to the red army and there will be lines and lines of units in the front and in reserve mode in the back, making the 42 offensive difficult if not a waste.

The flip side is if I'm able to isolate or place the soviets into indefensible situations, which is what Pelton and Michaelt do consistently starting from turn 3 on through end of the 41 campaign season. The soviets have less troops, more difficult times establishing solid defense lines, allowing for holes to open for the Germans to further isolate or exploit. In other words, muling allows the germans to keep the soviets on their heels and that is a requirement for a good 42 campaign season.

Vicberg: You can do all this without muling or even HQ build up for the 1st few turns. Gerans have to get the start right and max kills on russian units. That prevents defence being too strong. In any event, supplies towards L and M are less of a problem than historically. The other thing you have to do is to get the infantry up ASAP as that is how you kill Russians.

Your blizzard losses should not be 1-1.5M or close but that does in part mean killing enough russian units first.

@ Flavius -what stops me doing 20 hex paradrops is that I still haven't looked up how to do them. I'm also not clear what good they will do me other than to give Jerry something to kill. Then there is the cheese factor. However, at least I expect it would have been techinically (as opposed to morally which was not Stalin's biggest concern) feasible with total air superiority which is more than can be said for these supplies tactics. Otherwise, Germans would presumably have tried something like that. Sadly for them they did not have thousands of spare trains, lorries and drivers waiting around just in case they got the build up call. There was simply no significant spare capacity in the system. Even the western allies could not do it for Monty and Patton - it was always 1 or the other - and logistics has always been an american strength.

My expectation is that people will simply not want to play Russians against those tactics. If they do, it's up to them. As long as the German player is upfront about it, then we have 2 consenting adults even if only 1 of whom is likely to be satisfied. If it was widely regarded as acceptable I think more people would be doing it already. If I'm wrong it will enable me to catch up on some other games.

[vicberg]

Flav, this is exactly the point. Historical advance isn't good enough based on the current production model. The soviet production is too overwhelming and in combination with reserve mode, makes 42 a waste. I did a "historical" advance against cheerfully insane and faced 8 million men in 42. Hmmmm.....over double my OOB. 4 lines of defense, with lines 2-4 all in reserve mode. Spent 8 turns trying to make ANY progress and gave up.

The reserve mode, which people are finally starting to recognize, is too powerful, IMO. Reserves don't commit if the battle is overwhelming. Since the nearest reserve is 10 miles away up to 60 miles away, how does a commander know that the battle isn't worth reserves? A commander doesn't have time to make that choice. Strikes me as being a bit too omniscient. And I highly doubt that reservers suffer attrition for joining the battle or have their CV significantly modified if moving long distances to join the battle.

So the combo of soviet production and reserve mode blows the game out of the water if the German doesn't keep the soviet on it's heels. Does that lead to winning the game outright? Sure, when the opponents aren't evenly matched. But evenly matched, muling is a requirement otherwise the game is blown by 42.

If there's tactics I could be doing without muling to keep the game competitive into 42, by all means, please let me know.

[vicberg]

Sillyflower - that's exactly what I do. I leave skeletons around the pockets and move infanty through gaps and up to the front as fast as I can.

But I feel like I'm playing a different game than you. Routing Soviet units isn't enough as they come back. I need to isolate Soviet units and requires panzer running on full tanks. I smashed two Soviet armies against cheerfully insane. He had to pull them off the line to rebuild. Did it make a difference? Not really, he maintained his defense in depth, using reserve mode extensively, and that stopped me cold.

Only with full tanks in panzers can I make progress against that type of defense, otherwise I'm facing 8 million men and multiple layers of units in reserve mode.

[Schmart]

ORIGINAL: vicberg
The extreme Soviet manpower and production capabilities that leads to 8 million man army in 42 forces the Germans into extreme measures of mulling in order to overcome. Get two equal players and the game is matched as is. Get one player better than the other and the game becomes lopsided quite quickly because the game IS extreme.

I think Russian manpower multiplyers were reduced so that we don't see this as often? Maybe 6 million (7 million tops?).

Also, I think it works a bit both ways. My impression is that games tend to be light on casualties. I regularly see AARs (and my own games) with German strength consistently above 3 million, and a few even above 4 million. IIRC, after starting with over 3 million and quickly dropping, the Germans didn't get back above 3 million until for a brief time in mid-1943, and it was downhill from there. I believe the Russians historically maxed out at around 6 million.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Sillyflower - that's exactly what I do. I leave skeletons around the pockets and move infanty through gaps and up to the front as fast as I can.

But I feel like I'm playing a different game than you. Routing Soviet units isn't enough as they come back. I need to isolate Soviet units and requires panzer running on full tanks. I smashed two Soviet armies against cheerfully insane. He had to pull them off the line to rebuild. Did it make a difference? Not really, he maintained his defense in depth, using reserve mode extensively, and that stopped me cold.

Only with full tanks in panzers can I make progress against that type of defense, otherwise I'm facing 8 million men and multiple layers of units in reserve mode.

Perhaps you should look at my AAR in depth, here's a German who knows how it's done. And we agreed to no muling.
He has his own AAR, where he said he would note when and where he did a HQ buildup.

[glvaca]

by the way, just quickly looking at your latest AAR as the German, compare your ending positions on turn 2, with his ending on turn 2.

Keep in mind, there's not much you can actually do as the Russian after turn 1 to really influence the results. It's all about speed, concentration of power, and execution.

IF the german is fast enough, the Russian simply won't have the units for 2, let alone 3 or 4 rows of divisions in reserve.

[Flaviusx]

In game strength returns for both sides are inflated by including in the totals a lot of stuff which I don't think the usual historical returns do. HQs and airbases in particular (and their manpower totals as expressed in the game always seemed to me suspiciously high.) So you have to take that 3.5 million man in game German army with a grain of salt. Ditto for the Red Army.

[karonagames]

If there's tactics I could be doing without muling to keep the game competitive into 42, by all means, please let me know.

I have found the best tactic when I start getting frustrated with an aspect of the game, is take a break, and then figure out the ways and means of overcoming the thing that is making me frustrated.

I am not an expert, as I have only played 2 41 GC's as the axis that have got beyond t60, and my opponents have used very different strategies, which luckily for me, played into the hands of the strategies I was using. In the first game the sovs fought forward and allowed me to grind with infantry and encircle with panzers, the next game was against a runaway who avoided encirclement like the plague and who conserved his forces, but he made a mistake that game me Moscow.

I used HQB 5-6 times in both games, and I have not used the muling technique. In the first game,I faced a 4m strong red army during the blizzard, and March Madness applied, so gave me a good 1942 starting position which enabled me to get Moscow and force a surrender. In the second, I faced a 5.2m red Army during the blizzard and no March Madness so started 42 facing the 4deep reserve-loaded blanket of about 6m men.

I basically kept prodding and probing the blanket with grinding infantry attacks backed up with motorised units in offensive reserve mode, this produced favourable casualty ratios without gaining much ground, until eventually a crack appeared that I pounced on, which has now allowed me to get to the gates of Stalingrad by T67 and well on the road to Baku.

Whether this would work against an 8m blanket, I don't know, but I do know from my 1942/1943 tests that a 2.5m German army can still hold up an 8m Red Army, but it needs reserve mode to do it, so you won't see me supporting any changes to this rule.

[vicberg]

IF the german is fast enough, the Russian simply won't have the units for 2, let alone 3 or 4 rows of divisions in reserve.

I have to disagree. Glvaca, with all due respect you've been fighting a very forward defense which plays into his hands. The further forward you decide to fight, the better will be his supply situation. You had a LOT of units in the Crimea and a number still defending the Denpr (both north and south) after he crossed elsewhere. Once the landbridge in the north is breached or the denpr is cross anywhere in the south, I have seen many a soviet opponent pull far back because these spots become untenable. You didn't do that. SJ80's rail lines are still way back there in the south. If you were to pull back, far, in the south, you'll see his panzers on fumes. You could have avoided these encirclements entirely.

After I post my turn 11 with Viktor, check out what he's doing. He has small hedgehog all along the south. He just wants to slow me down. He's probably already railed out all the arms and factories. So he has a minimal committment in the south and a very strong in in the north. I'm lucky to push 2 or 3 hexes in the north, but I'm doing it at high cost to my panzers, and there's still a chance for Moscow. I never posted my game with cheerfully insane and I wish I did. He did pickets in the first few turns then started his defense in depth. He didn't care a BIT about terrain but maintained solid lines running from Moscow down to Kursk/Stalino. I mean absolutely straight. If I pushed 2 or 3 hexes into his lines, he retreated ALL of his lines 2 or 3 hexes. He didn't care about cities, rivers, nothing. I couldn't isolate or do nearly enough damage. I'd like another crack at that defense because I believe I can do more damage to it, but it was quite affective. It all comes down to playing style.

I will say that I'm probably focusing my panzer too far into the wooded north and that the best route for isolation or mosow is from the clear terrain to the south of Smolensk, however, in comparing my game to SJ80, we are about at the same physical locations on the map. The difference is that I've had to do a number of small pockets vs. the larger encirclements that SJ80 has been doing. Overall, it looks like we are at similar places in terms of isolated units, though he probably has a handful more than me.

However, I can tell you right now, barring a disaster during winter, that I'll be facing LOTS of troops all in reserve mode in 42. It won't be pretty and there will be minimal chance for a good campaign. I simply haven't destroyed enough of his units.

[vicberg]

I basically kept prodding and probing the blanket with grinding infantry attacks backed up with motorised units in offensive reserve mode, this produced favourable casualty ratios without gaining much ground, until eventually a crack appeared that I pounced on, which has now allowed me to get to the gates of Stalingrad by T67 and well on the road to Baku.

Offensive reserves is something I've started experimenting with. I'll try that.

[Flaviusx]

Glvaca, Vicberg does a have point about your defense in the south. It really is a bit too far forward.

Once the Germans cross the Dnepr in strength the Ukraine is more or less indefensible. You have to keep backing into what I refer to as the logistical deadzone. This is the area where buildups cannot be done -- the game provides you perfect intelligence regarding distance from railheads, so you can easily calculate what is eligible for buildups and where. Your main line of resistance should be located in this area, and be gradually withdrawn as the Axis supply advances. Anything forward of that is merely for screening/attrition purposes.

This provides you with the balance of forces necessary to fight it out up north where the Germans can push their supply lines well forward and you have less space to give up, but much better terrain.

Your evac probably needs some refinement, too. I don't evacuate anything west of the Dnepr and start right away with the big juicy targets. Kharkov is generally my third evacuation site (after Leningrad and Poltava.) The idea here is that you don't want to have all that stuff exposed when the Axis cross the Dnepr around turn 6. Your rail cap won't keep up with it. So you write off everything far forward and start working immediately on the big stuff.

By turn 10 or so you can strip the entire southern factory complex up to Voronezh and Rostov.

[vicberg]

Flaviusx is right on the money. That's exactly what Viktor just did. He held the southern Denpr in strength long enough to evac his production and then moved most of his troops to the north.

BigAnorak. You are advocating a war of attrition across the front. That's an interesting idea against a blanket. I'll see if that works better.

[karonagames]

You are advocating a war of attrition across the front. That's an interesting idea against a blanket. I'll see if that works better.

My strategy is based on moving to the defensive only if my total german manpower; frontline and in the pools goes below 3.3m. So far it has stayed above:

Situation T54:

[karonagames]

T66:

Patience and probing for cracks was the answer for me:

[vicberg]

Wow! That's a blanket alright and you've managed to push it to the edge of the map. Ok. I can see a case now for no muling.

[karonagames]

I can see a case now for no muling.

I haven't used HQ build up in 1942 either, hence the stupid number of vehicles in my pool.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: vicberg

IF the german is fast enough, the Russian simply won't have the units for 2, let alone 3 or 4 rows of divisions in reserve.

I have to disagree. Glvaca, with all due respect you've been fighting a very forward defense which plays into his hands. The further forward you decide to fight, the better will be his supply situation. You had a LOT of units in the Crimea and a number still defending the Denpr (both north and south) after he crossed elsewhere. Once the landbridge in the north is breached or the denpr is cross anywhere in the south, I have seen many a soviet opponent pull far back because these spots become untenable. You didn't do that. SJ80's rail lines are still way back there in the south. If you were to pull back, far, in the south, you'll see his panzers on fumes. You could have avoided these encirclements entirely.

After I post my turn 11 with Viktor, check out what he's doing. He has small hedgehog all along the south. He just wants to slow me down. He's probably already railed out all the arms and factories. So he has a minimal committment in the south and a very strong in in the north. I'm lucky to push 2 or 3 hexes in the north, but I'm doing it at high cost to my panzers, and there's still a chance for Moscow. I never posted my game with cheerfully insane and I wish I did. He did pickets in the first few turns then started his defense in depth. He didn't care a BIT about terrain but maintained solid lines running from Moscow down to Kursk/Stalino. I mean absolutely straight. If I pushed 2 or 3 hexes into his lines, he retreated ALL of his lines 2 or 3 hexes. He didn't care about cities, rivers, nothing. I couldn't isolate or do nearly enough damage. I'd like another crack at that defense because I believe I can do more damage to it, but it was quite affective. It all comes down to playing style.

I will say that I'm probably focusing my panzer too far into the wooded north and that the best route for isolation or mosow is from the clear terrain to the south of Smolensk, however, in comparing my game to SJ80, we are about at the same physical locations on the map. The difference is that I've had to do a number of small pockets vs. the larger encirclements that SJ80 has been doing. Overall, it looks like we are at similar places in terms of isolated units, though he probably has a handful more than me.

However, I can tell you right now, barring a disaster during winter, that I'll be facing LOTS of troops all in reserve mode in 42. It won't be pretty and there will be minimal chance for a good campaign. I simply haven't destroyed enough of his units.

M8, I have never lost as the German, and have always managed to take Moscow, Leningrad, Kharkov and Rostov. I do about 3 buildup per game, sometimes more, sometimes less.

As to my AAR, I'm not going to run like a rabit East of the Dnepr because I don't want to give the german masses of space to retreat come Blizzard if I can help it. The reason I don't _HAVE_ to run East of the Dnepr is because I ran West of the Dnepr. That's the whole point of not fighting West of the Dnepr, because it's too close to his supply lines, etc... East of the Dnepr, that's a completely different thing, and I don't think he has ever been in a position to do a buildup in the South because of RR lagging behind. He's been fighting 25+ distance from RR heads AND still he has 30+ movement points to spend, repeatedly. As I said in my AAR repeatedly, without reaction, he uses air supply a lot, but doesn't drop on units but on his HQ's. That seems to be his secret. It seems to be VERY efficient because he's not muling and he can't have done HQ buildups as his RR are to far behind.

Now, the largest pocket thusfar in the AAR have been 10 Divs. at a time, that's nothing to complete fronts at a time I managed myself.

Now to come back to your turn 2 versus SJ80's turn 2, or turn 7 if you like, if you can't see the difference than I'll stop trying to help you here. He's focussed, he's aggressive, and he's flexible. You're spread out, haven't figured out that it's the infantry that will do the heavy lifting when you meet such a line, and you're slow. Sorry if that's blunt.

Now as too reserves, they are nice, and I've had a lot of units on and off on reserves but they have to commit for 1, and he needs to attack where you have reserves. that's 2. Thirdly, when the German is really pushing you and keeping you off balance, you'll be moving units constantly to plug gaps, they will not have all that much movement left to go on reserve. Lastly, if your units get beat up, they need to go on refit to replace losses, so they can't be on reserve.

You're on the wrong path, open your mind, you're not doing things right.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Glvaca, Vicberg does a have point about your defense in the south. It really is a bit too far forward.

Once the Germans cross the Dnepr in strength the Ukraine is more or less indefensible. You have to keep backing into what I refer to as the logistical deadzone. This is the area where buildups cannot be done -- the game provides you perfect intelligence regarding distance from railheads, so you can easily calculate what is eligible for buildups and where. Your main line of resistance should be located in this area, and be gradually withdrawn as the Axis supply advances. Anything forward of that is merely for screening/attrition purposes.

This provides you with the balance of forces necessary to fight it out up north where the Germans can push their supply lines well forward and you have less space to give up, but much better terrain.

Your evac probably needs some refinement, too. I don't evacuate anything west of the Dnepr and start right away with the big juicy targets. Kharkov is generally my third evacuation site (after Leningrad and Poltava.) The idea here is that you don't want to have all that stuff exposed when the Axis cross the Dnepr around turn 6. Your rail cap won't keep up with it. So you write off everything far forward and start working immediately on the big stuff.

By turn 10 or so you can strip the entire southern factory complex up to Voronezh and Rostov.

Indeed I can improve many things in my game but I refuse to just run and run, I want him to pay for getting that turf even if I have to pay myself. Besides, I want to keep Moscow, and running away won't help with that, just on the contrary.

On the evec side of things, yes, I have made mistakes, like for example doing evac of HI, which is also the reason I still have ARMS in Kharkov etc...
I did not appreciate at that time that they are completely useless in the game, which is also a big dissapoitment.

Again, I run West of the Dnepr and fight East, it has served me well over the last games, and if I can hold on the Rostov, I'll consider the campaign a success. The farther West of Rostov the better.

Leningrad cannjot be held against the commitment of an extra Pz Corps, Inf Corps and all the reinforcements that he can get there. And especially not against an aggressive fast moving German, it's just not in the cards.

Moscow can be held, and I have pillaged the South constantly to shore up my defences there.

But that's not the point. My point is, I can get to Moscow in 1941 and beyond without muling. I've done it several times, screenshots are available.