Top Ten fighting ships of all time

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Warrior had a hull of iron, overlaid by teak, overlaid by iron armor ...

Iron siding wasn't a novel concept. The Venetians had an ironclad floating battery in 1712. Proposals were made for similar, in the Colonies, from three different sources in 1777-79. One was actually constructed in 1814 (but burnt on the stocks). Gloire was an iron sheathed frigate style ship, concieved when iron rolling technology matured enough to make such a vessel practical. Warrior was merely Gloire writ large; much larger (longer, wider, deeper, more burthensome) and with larger caliber guns, many of which were French Paixhan designs. You will see much of Seppings in both hulls. No real headline news.

The ironclad revolving turret has a bit more claim to novelty. Trainable/revolving centerline gun platforms had been on literally hundreds of warships for over 100 years. But the mechanically powered, armored turrets of the Monitor were a real eye opener. Given that every serious warship from that day, till even now, uses powered, armored turrets, so Monitor's progeny have relied on her fundamental technological advance for what? 250 years now?

otoh, the trireme is definitely #1. From even way before Salamis, thru the Pelopenesian Wars, Tyre, Alexander, Syracuse, Carthage, Rome, 500 years of dominance. Woof !!!!

Ciao. J

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Someone needs to mention (so I will) the Chinese expeditionary fleets of the 15th century which explored all of the Indian Ocean, much if not all of the Pacific, some think the Southern Ocean and perhaps even the South Atlantic. One of these fleets had 28,000 sailors in it (there may have been larger ones). The largest class of ships used were as follows:

"Chinese treasure ships" (±¦´¬, B¨£o Chu¨¢n), used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (nine-masted, about 127 metres (416 ft) long and 52 metres (170 ft) wide), according to later writers[citation needed]. This is more or less the size and shape of a football field.[71][72]

All the fleets of Europe combined were pathetic in comparison.

The emperor following all this activity had all the ships and maps derived from these expeditions burned.

I read a book ("A Brief History of Mankind", great book - highly recommend) that mentioned this. I'd completely forgotten about it. I remember when reading it that my reaction was "Wow. Had no idea. Impressive." Followed by "What an idiot," about the next emperor.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Symon

Given that every serious warship from that day, till even now, uses powered, armored turrets, so Monitor's progeny have relied on her fundamental technological advance for what? 250 years now?
Ciao. J

I'm sure you meant 150 years. I agree, the next big thing after her were effective submarines.

By the way, a general consensus has formed that Symon is in the IRS due to his excellent skills in mathematics. [:'(]

He's probably in De Eye-lands, Mon trying to track down Romney's money.

Did anyone notice that Romney is an anagram of R-money? R is texting spelling for "my". [:D]

[Amoral]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I read a book ("A Brief History of Mankind", great book - highly recommend) that mentioned this. I'd completely forgotten about it. I remember when reading it that my reaction was "Wow. Had no idea. Impressive." Followed by "What an idiot," about the next emperor.

To be fair, Europe had maps and contacts, and that got them the Bubonic Plague all the way from SE Asia. China was isolated, and did not have a black death. I'm not saying isolation was right, but the Emperor did not burn the maps and fleets because he couldn't see the benefits. He burned them because he saw the dangers.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Amoral

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I read a book ("A Brief History of Mankind", great book - highly recommend) that mentioned this. I'd completely forgotten about it. I remember when reading it that my reaction was "Wow. Had no idea. Impressive." Followed by "What an idiot," about the next emperor.

To be fair, Europe had maps and contacts, and that got them the Bubonic Plague all the way from SE Asia. China was isolated, and did not have a black death. I'm not saying isolation was right, but the Emperor did not burn the maps and fleets because he couldn't see the benefits. He burned them because he saw the dangers.

[citation needed]

[geofflambert]

This in from Wikipedia (not an authoritative source).

The Black Death is thought to have started in China or central Asia

I hate to have to say it again, but someone needs to do his homework.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Correct. The French had the first seagoing iron clad La Gloire launched in 1859.

Also incorrect (in a sense). The British launched the iron hulled Warrior (not iron-clad) in 1860. It may be a matter of debate but I expect iron clad oak was harder to penetrate than a plain iron hull.

Not quite right in either sense. Neither ship was built with a hull of armor plate. One must learn about the shipbuilding techniques of the time before making such wiki-pronouncements.

Gloire was designed by Dupuy de Lôme. She was framed classically, with iron Seppings trusses. She had an inner skin of planking to the scantling of the 1832 establishment and an outer skin of formed, iron plating, down to the 3rd design lwl and extending from station VI to the forefoot (the gripe in English terms).

Warrior was designed by Isaac Watts and was also relatively classical. She was a take-off from an 1858 wooden frigate design, but had some internal adjustments. In addition to Seppings trusses, she had iron frames in the midship section and a thin iron hull. The fore and aft, and the filler frames were of wood. The first example of riveting in warships, with the trusses riveted to the iron frames and the iron frames riveted to the hull plating. The remaining plating was secured to the frame timbers by iron clench bolts (kinda puts that received wiki wisdom about French hulls being weak because they used iron fasteners, into the nonsense dumpster where it belongs, yeah?). Warrior had a traditional wood plank set over the skin (of 2/3 scantling), then an armor cladding, again using iron clench bolts.

Both ships had wooden wales of varying thicknesses overlaying the exterior iron plate. Warrior is extolled in the wiki-world as having a central citadel, but that is the sheerest bull poop. Nothing of the sort was contemplated or designed. It was simply the vaporings of someone who noted that her midsection had the majority of iron in it. That's all.

Warrior was simply much larger and more heavily armed. She was NOT a technological departure in any way, shape, or form.

Ciao. J

[geofflambert]

Simple Symon met a pieman, but never mastered english. First you say no iron plate, then you say there was iron plate. I'm sure you have a distinction but didn't express it well. If you want to get picky, the Monitor wasn't an ironclad, was she?

I'm guessing you mean when I said the Warrior had an iron hull that I meant that the iron hull was in fact and of itself armor. Looking back that is a fair interpretation of what I said. Now, I didn't say La Gloire had an iron hull and you yourself say she had iron plate armor. I'm mystified what your objection to what I said is in that regard. Please excuse my snarkiness. Clearly you at least have done your homework.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Allways has to have the last word Bullwinkle. [:@]

I wish I had that power . . .

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Sorry, nothing rhymes with bullwinkle

Someone give that space happy lizard a mouse. He has WAY to much free time on his hands[:'(]

Not as much as that moose. He looks stuffed.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Simple Symon met a pieman, but never mastered english.

English is my second language. Think I have mastered it sufficiently to express myself cogently.

Iron is not armor. Iron is a structural material with well established moduli, like wood. Iron has certain structural benefits over wood, assuming the technology is available to produce iron in the requisite form and thickness. Iron is useful in resisting wracking stresses, and when combined with Seppings trusses, useful in reducing hogging moments in long vessels. Its usefulness against round shot was a highly desirable, but almost secondary consideration.

The only time I used the term armor was with Warrior's outer iron sheathing, because that was it's function. It was not a structural member. The rest of the time, I used the term iron.

Don't know why I even bother engaging pre-teens. You have your wiki-world, where reality is worse than a bath and some deodorant. Gotta say I try to feel for ya, but just can't reach that far. Ciao. J

[Encircled]

Can I put a vote in for the war cruise of SMS Emden in 1914?

Undergunned, underpowered, but still managed to wreck havoc in the Indian Ocean till she ran out of luck at the Cocos Islands.

[kjnoel]

ORIGINAL: Symon


Don't know why I even bother engaging pre-teens. You have your wiki-world, where reality is worse than a bath and some deodorant. Gotta say I try to feel for ya, but just can't reach that far. Ciao. J

This forum is so much fun. Any other forum would use the term noob [;)]

Facetiousness aside, this is a great thread for learning I have to say!

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: CV60

I'm a sucker for lists like this, so I'll give a shot at creating my own list ... 3) Queen Elizabeth BB-In service from Jutland to end of WWII. Effective in 2 World Wars ...

I recall that we have the Warspite in AE, but it can barely hold it's own against IJN CA's.

Oddly enough, I don't recall that any IJN ship made the Top Ten list, but coincidently, the QE Class also made the #3 slot.

Yeah, a bit odd...

I don't feel I know enough about historical ship designs to build a list of my own, but WW2 classes that have always impressed me:

IJN CAs, particularly Mogami and Takao classes
Brooklyn CLs
US WW2 fleet subs (Gato class, Balao class, etc.)
Fletcher DDs ....

Fletcher Class did make the list at #5 for being the "lightweight fighter with the Super Heavyweight punch," but no subs did.

Here's the link to the show with video of all the winners:
http://military.discovery.com/tv-shows/ ... -ships.htm

[zuluhour]

No one mentioned the viking boats. Plied waters from the new world to Moscow and south on the Volga. They did not lose they were assimilated.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: kjnoel
This forum is so much fun. Any other forum would use the term noob [;)]

Facetiousness aside, this is a great thread for learning I have to say!

Not directed at you, pal. Facetiousness aside, some people want to know, other people just want to .... .

If I can post something that helps you learn or directs you to somewhere you can use to help build your knowledge base, then I am content.

Ciao. J

[mike scholl 1]

Are we talking about a CLASS of ships..., or about a SINGLE ship? If a single ship, I nominate U-35 from WW I, USS Johnson from Leyte Gulf, and HMS Warspite from more battles than I can mention.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Someone needs to mention (so I will) the Chinese expeditionary fleets of the 15th century which explored all of the Indian Ocean, much if not all of the Pacific, some think the Southern Ocean and perhaps even the South Atlantic. One of these fleets had 28,000 sailors in it (there may have been larger ones). The largest class of ships used were as follows:

"Chinese treasure ships" (±¦´¬, B¨£o Chu¨¢n), used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (nine-masted, about 127 metres (416 ft) long and 52 metres (170 ft) wide), according to later writers[citation needed]. This is more or less the size and shape of a football field.[71][72]

All the fleets of Europe combined were pathetic in comparison.

The emperor following all this activity had all the ships and maps derived from these expeditions burned.

I first heard of this massive exploration from a guy who was making an argument that Europe became dominant over the world because there was just enough military competition between countries, but not too much. India never could get going because the various kingdoms were too strong and were too good at knocking the others down. On the other end of the scale was China which was poised to dominate the world from its explorations and then one short sighted idiot came along and shut the whole project down ending China's massive lead with one stroke.

Bill

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Are we talking about a CLASS of ships ...

The Top Ten show was referring to a class of ships, and then cited examples of that class, i.e., HMS Warspite of the Queen Eliz Class.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Someone needs to mention (so I will) the Chinese expeditionary fleets of the 15th century which explored all of the Indian Ocean, much if not all of the Pacific, some think the Southern Ocean and perhaps even the South Atlantic. One of these fleets had 28,000 sailors in it (there may have been larger ones). The largest class of ships used were as follows:

"Chinese treasure ships" (±¦´¬, B¨£o Chu¨¢n), used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (nine-masted, about 127 metres (416 ft) long and 52 metres (170 ft) wide), according to later writers[citation needed]. This is more or less the size and shape of a football field.[71][72]

All the fleets of Europe combined were pathetic in comparison.

The emperor following all this activity had all the ships and maps derived from these expeditions burned.

I first heard of this massive exploration from a guy who was making an argument that Europe became dominant over the world because there was just enough military competition between countries, but not too much. India never could get going because the various kingdoms were too strong and were too good at knocking the others down. On the other end of the scale was China which was poised to dominate the world from its explorations and then one short sighted idiot came along and shut the whole project down ending China's massive lead with one stroke.

Bill

Interesting theory, but if we were picking any one factor (which I don't think is ever wise) then I'm going with the Industrial Revolution and differing views on how to produce Things. More interesting was the enormous fluctuations in population all over the world.


The Black Death has been traced to the Siege of Caffa (learned this from that book, it really is a great one!). A fleet of a dozen or so ships docked at Messina in Sicily, and that was the first instance of Black Death. Sources: Plagues and Peoples, William H. McNeill; The Black Death, Philip Ziegler.