I hope Matrix doesnt make us use STEAM to buy games in the future

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....

Because that's what plenty of people have said Steam sales have done for them? You know Steam doesn't force those discounts on publishers, right? They have control over how steep the discount is. If it wasn't working for the publishers and people making the games they wouldn't keep doing it!

I've read articles too that say sales of a title are often higher after the sale is over and the game goes back to its regular price then it was before the sale (presumably from word of mouth).

Right now these games are kinda 'hidden away'. If you aren't already a fan of wargames you're not that likely to find your way here. What do you think will happen if you take some of the high quality titles Matrix has and put them in front of an audience of seven million people at a price designed to encourage people to take a chance on them?

Matrix won't lose money, that's for sure, and you can potentially bring in tons of new people to the hobby, which will pay vast long term dividends for the hobby as a whole.

warspite1

Right so if its that clear cut and that simple why would Matrix - who have stockholders and financiers with a keen interest on the bottom line - not simply go down that route?

One thing is for certain. If the audience is seven million people I would love to know what a drop in price of say 50% would do for WITP-AE.

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Slashing the price does not necessarily get you added revenue because the number buying such a niche product is very limited in the first place.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I've always felt this 'niche' argument is a self-fulfilling one. Sure, these games are never going to do Skyrim or Battlefield nubmers, but I suspect that for every person who has bought a game like Witp:AE from Matrix there are multiple people who would buy them if:

1.) They knew they existed
2.) They were priced competitively with other video games
3.) A little more work was done on making interfaces and 'getting started' more approachable.

I often get the vibe that our hobby can be almost willfully 'niche', like it doesn't new people to join the hobby and can even sabotage its own success with attitudes like - "Well, why spend lots of time on a good interface, anyone who really wants to play will take the time to learn a bad one?"

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Right so if its that clear cut and that simple why would Matrix - who have stockholders and financiers with a keen interest on the bottom line - not simply go down that route?

One thing is for certain. If the audience is seven million people I would love to know what a drop in price of say 50% would do for WITP-AE.

Well, it looks like they may be starting down that route. Hopefully it's successful for everyone! As to the second question, maybe we'll find out!

[catwhoorg]

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy WITP:AE, but the steam crowd wouldn't add many more sales in my opinion no matter the price point.

Its the ultimate in niche games, and requires a huge amount of dedication to even complete an AI campaign. Getting someone to commit to several years for a PBEM ? Not going to be many on steam with that desire. (and that timeframe requires a fair amount of dedication, and not playing other games).

Panzer Corps ? Great game for steam. Instantly recognizable to anyone who knew the 5 star general series, short and long scenarios and campaigns. Easy to learn and play.

[Alchenar]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy WITP:AE, but the steam crowd wouldn't add many more sales in my opinion no matter the price point.

I think you need to explain Train Simulator then.


e: seriously, Train Simulator. There's at least one genre that grognards can feel positively mainstream in comparison to.

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg
Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy WITP:AE, but the steam crowd wouldn't add many more sales in my opinion no matter the price point.

Well, clearly it would never top the best sellers list, and it actually IS the grand daddy of 'niche' titles, but I bet it could do a lot better then you're expecting.

If a mere one tenth of one percent of the seven million people on Steam were willing to try it out that's 7000 copies sold, and I imagine there are quite a bit more then one tenth of one percent of gamers who would be interested in trying out a game like WITP.

[aaatoysandmore]

[:)]Matrixgames and Slitherine over the years have probably made themselves a database on all of us, what we buy, when we buy, how much we buy. We can't see that of course but it gives them an idea of who will buy what when. There's some of you out there that buy everything they make, there's some of you that only buy monster games and with that database they are able to figure a base price that will make them a nice tidy profit without having to sell mainstream or to all of us. We've built them that database and like robots have stuck to our buying habits. Change those and you'll change how they do business as that line will start to go down eventually and if they want to make a profit they'll have to change. I blame it on those of you who buy everything they make and throw money at them without even questioning them sometimes. You rush to be first, you gotta comment first, just something about being first. I remember the forum threads with 1st comments in them or in before lock or just silly childish stuff like that. Being first doesn't make it a good game and there you've just wasted your money to find that out. It's a poc game and you're stuck with it cause you just had to be first. lol
 
It's why I wait every year for this sale. I know it's coming. I don't have to be first I know I'm going to get the game eventually and waiting is no longer an issue with me. I've become more patient in my old age. I don't throw money away just because I have a job or it's easy to make. It's still money, money that can be used on other things like making my family happy. Getting lil timothy a new x-box one instead of a new leg or kidney. lol Now they have those weekly sales, makes it even better, now I have christmas and every week to look forward to and less griping because the prices are so high.
 
I nearly dropped my teeth when I heard to price of WIF. Man they must only be marketing for a very few sales of that game if the price is that high. Even at 1/2 price the price would be too high in my book. But, I remember this same gripe when Command OPS Battles from the Bulge first came out and I waited that out and I can wait this one out as well it ain't that great of a game design imho. I've seen better over the years like Making History II (ducking from all the flamers lol)
 
To each his own I guess, as for me I will buy what I think is a fair and just price, as for the rest?  well they can keep it.[:)]

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg
Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy WITP:AE, but the steam crowd wouldn't add many more sales in my opinion no matter the price point.

Well, clearly it would never top the best sellers list, and it actually IS the grand daddy of 'niche' titles, but I bet it could do a lot better then you're expecting.

If a mere one tenth of one percent of the seven million people on Steam were willing to try it out that's 7000 copies sold, and I imagine there are more then one tenth of one percent of gamers who would be interested in trying out a game like WITP.

Not me and I'm even a part of the wargaming crowd. I just don't like those monster games at all. Give me Warlords type games. [:)]

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Not me and I'm even a part of the wargaming crowd. I just don't like those monster games at all. Give me Warlords type games. [:)]

Well, yeah, I suspect that a lot of people would boot it up, be completely overwhelmed, and give up on it. But honestly? I suspect that's true for a non-trivial number of people who bought it direct from Matrix! [;)]

[gradenko2k]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....

Some people will undoubtedly disregard these as "not being wargames", but since you asked:

Dustforce:
http://hitboxteam.com/dustforce-sales-figures

Defender's Quest:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/186940/

Witcher 2
http://kotaku.com/5858589/a-rare-glimps ... es-figures

Fez:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2 ... steam-sale

General sales:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1745 ... _games.php

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy WITP:AE, but the steam crowd wouldn't add many more sales in my opinion no matter the price point.

Its the ultimate in niche games, and requires a huge amount of dedication to even complete an AI campaign. Getting someone to commit to several years for a PBEM ? Not going to be many on steam with that desire. (and that timeframe requires a fair amount of dedication, and not playing other games).

Panzer Corps ? Great game for steam. Instantly recognizable to anyone who knew the 5 star general series, short and long scenarios and campaigns. Easy to learn and play.

Train Simulator 2014: 3,338 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/24010

Euro Truck Simulator 2: 5,861 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/227300

Crusader Kings 2: 8,146 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/203770

X Rebirth: 14,664 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/2870

Europa Universalis 4: 15,530 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/236850

Football Manager 2014: 66,145 peak concurrent players (and currently 6th most played title on Steam)
http://steamcharts.com/app/231670

Football Manager 2013: 87,420 peak concurrent players (and currently 13th most played title on Steam
http://steamcharts.com/app/207890

Now, obviously we do not know how many copies of WITP-AE have ever been sold, but if a game as niche as Football Manager just falls shy of 100k players, what does that say about how many potential buyers there are of Matrix's catalogue, if the prices were low enough that people felt they could take it even if they ended up not liking the game?

Anyone and everyone who likes this genre enough already bought WITP:AE years ago, and the only way is up. Hell, Matrix themselves are putting their own marketing strategy to the test by running the weekly sales for more than half a year when it was only supposed to be an experiment, and this very sub-forum has its own share of people going "Hey that's cheap enough! Let's try that!" whenever new deals were posted.

[PipFromSlitherine]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....

Some people will undoubtedly disregard these as "not being wargames", but since you asked:

Dustforce:
http://hitboxteam.com/dustforce-sales-figures

Defender's Quest:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/186940/

Witcher 2
http://kotaku.com/5858589/a-rare-glimps ... es-figures

Fez:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2 ... steam-sale

General sales:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1745 ... _games.php

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy WITP:AE, but the steam crowd wouldn't add many more sales in my opinion no matter the price point.

Its the ultimate in niche games, and requires a huge amount of dedication to even complete an AI campaign. Getting someone to commit to several years for a PBEM ? Not going to be many on steam with that desire. (and that timeframe requires a fair amount of dedication, and not playing other games).

Panzer Corps ? Great game for steam. Instantly recognizable to anyone who knew the 5 star general series, short and long scenarios and campaigns. Easy to learn and play.

Train Simulator 2014: 3,338 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/24010

Euro Truck Simulator 2: 5,861 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/227300

Crusader Kings 2: 8,146 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/203770

X Rebirth: 14,664 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/2870

Europa Universalis 4: 15,530 peak concurrent players
http://steamcharts.com/app/236850

Football Manager 2014: 66,145 peak concurrent players (and currently 6th most played title on Steam)
http://steamcharts.com/app/231670

Football Manager 2013: 87,420 peak concurrent players (and currently 13th most played title on Steam
http://steamcharts.com/app/207890

Now, obviously we do not know how many copies of WITP-AE have ever been sold, but if a game as niche as Football Manager just falls shy of 100k players, what does that say about how many potential buyers there are of Matrix's catalogue, if the prices were low enough that people felt they could take it even if they ended up not liking the game?

Anyone and everyone who likes this genre enough already bought WITP:AE years ago, and the only way is up. Hell, Matrix themselves are putting their own marketing strategy to the test by running the weekly sales for more than half a year when it was only supposed to be an experiment, and this very sub-forum has its own share of people going "Hey that's cheap enough! Let's try that!" whenever new deals were posted.

While not being interesting in getting involved again in the wider debate I think it is worth saying that Football Manager is about as far from niche as it is possible to get [:)]. It's release is close to a CoD event in the UK and a large part of Europe.

Cheers

Pip

[mekjak]

Standard grognard defense: the only niche games are the ones with hexes, NATO counters and Windows 95 interfaces.

Football Manager is actually a niche title in a niche genre. Games consisting mostly of spreadsheets aren't exactly a huge fad, but niche games can be popular (look at all those truck, train and farming sims that have done exceedingly well). They do well because they're on the biggest PC games distribution platform, and their prices often go low enough that tons of people impulse buy them just to try them out - not to mention word of mouth from those who end up liking them.

I'm beginning to think that grognards actually hate the idea that wargaming should expand outside of a tiny hardcore audience.

[IainMcNeil]

We are not moving to Steam. Some games will release on Steam and then people can buy from there with their DRM if they prefer or from us without DRM if they want that.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Just one question.

Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??

On what basis is this fact or even probable?

Human nature.

Train Simulator 2014 is $40. DLC average $20-$40 each, and if you look at all the TS2014 DLC at full price it is around $3500. Yes, you read that correctly.

Obviously full price is only going to be paid by the true trainspotting fanatic. But there are literally thousands on Steam who have taken the plunge when the price is greatly reduced. I myself did it last week...a $56 starter kit with some DLC (already discounted, as the package in its separate components would cost $200) was discounted to $9.50. After trying it out I went back and bought another $30-$40 worth of sale DLC, full price would've been $175 or so. So for $45 I now have game and DLC that would've cost $375 at full price.

The developers and distributors have little to lose...at their regular prices I'm sure they initially have purchases in the hundreds for each products. Deep discounting 50-75% opens the market to thousands more sales...thousands that wouldn't happen if they didn't do sale prices.

Gee, why does this sound familiar?

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We are not moving to Steam. Some games will release on Steam and then people can buy from there with their DRM if they prefer or from us without DRM if they want that.

Holy Crapola!

Matrix is moving to no DRM?!?

When will this happen?

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Right so if its that clear cut and that simple why would Matrix - who have stockholders and financiers with a keen interest on the bottom line - not simply go down that route?

Untrue. Matrix is a privately-held company. No stock to hold.

As for financiers I have no idea if they need to raise capital beyond their walls. Given how small...I'm sorry, I meant to say niche...they've kept their market, I doubt they could get venture capital if they needed it. I suspect all projects (since I've seen here and there that they are apparently on shoestring budgets) are financed in-house except for the usual loans any small business will incur.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We are not moving to Steam. Some games will release on Steam and then people can buy from there with their DRM if they prefer or from us without DRM if they want that.

Holy Crapola!

Matrix is moving to no DRM?!?

When will this happen?

[:)]

And I note that Iain chooses to describe Steam with perhaps the least of the attributes associated with the site. There are at least 83 . . . OK, only 82 . . . things I would say about Steam before "they use DRM."

Several days ago, Terminus, on a Matrix forum no less, said the BNW DLC for Civ5 "makes it a whole new game." I've had Civ5 for a long time and never got into it. Went to Steam in the Autumn sale, read up on the BNW DLC in the handy forum, saw BNW for $10 in the that-day sale, bought it two minutes later, downloaded for ten, was playing, fully patched, in two more. Two clicks to the Workshop and I had a map pack (free) that let me play with historic start locations on a huge Earth map. Bingo bango.

Stream has my credit card on file. Plimus does not and never will. I have two Matrix games--AE and WITE--both on physical media since I did not trust Digital River at the time to do the download correctly.

I've bought, by count in my Steam library, 19 games in the past two years from them. Total bought from other distributors? Zero.

I'm 55-YO. I play COD and I play Civ5 and I play Skyrim and I play AE (every day.) Am I in the "Steam crowd"? Yup.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: Fintilgin

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore
Not me and I'm even a part of the wargaming crowd. I just don't like those monster games at all. Give me Warlords type games. [:)]

Well, yeah, I suspect that a lot of people would boot it up, be completely overwhelmed, and give up on it. But honestly? I suspect that's true for a non-trivial number of people who bought it direct from Matrix! [;)]

In the business model it's not necessary for the customers to like, or even play, WitP:AE. A purchase is all that is required.

And I bet there are quite a few former SPI/AH players whose interest would be piqued by it. But at the normal $80 or even Christmas sale price of $53 they would chuckle at the distributor's audacity and optimism/ignorance, then move on.

If Matrix wants this to work, they're going to have to roll the dice and try Steam pricing. Then that 0.1% (Thief! That was in my first message here!) will give the game(s) a chance. If they refuse sales (or equally offer games for $50, $60, $70 on sale) they will simply be conducting another self-fulfilling prophecy.

[dutchman55555]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Several days ago, Terminus, on a Matrix forum no less, said the BNW DLC for Civ5 "makes it a whole new game." I've had Civ5 for a long time and never got into it. Went to Steam in the Autumn sale, read up on the BNW DLC in the handy forum, saw BNW for $10 in the that-day sale, bought it two minutes later, downloaded for ten, was playing, fully patched, in two more. Two clicks to the Workshop and I had a map pack (free) that let me play with historic start locations on a huge Earth map. Bingo bango.

LMAO. I also snagged BNW for that price. I was tempted when it was $30, but at $10 it was a no-brainer. And yes, the integrated Mods, quick integration of any DLC, and simple to access Multiplayer (I play Civ 5 with a co-worker most Friday evenings) all make it a dream.

I also note that there are currently 49,199 people playing Civ 5 on Steam. That's just after dinner time to early hours of the morning on the East Coast of NA to a lot of Europe on a Friday evening.

Anyone have firm figures on Matrix's regular customer base?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

In the business model it's not necessary for the customers to like, or even play, WitP:AE. A purchase is all that is required.

And I bet there are quite a few former SPI/AH players whose interest would be piqued by it. But at the normal $80 or even Christmas sale price of $53 they would chuckle at the distributor's audacity and optimism/ignornace, then move on.

If Matrix wants this to work, they're going to have to roll the dice and try Steam pricing. Then that 0.1% (Thief! That was in my first message here!) will give the game(s) a chance. If they refuse sales (or equally offer games for $50, $60, $70 on sale) they will simply be conducting another self-fulfilling prophecy.

The first line is often missed by folks around here. So long as Matrix doesn't lie or misrepresent what the game is it's not their concern if the customer doesn't care for it. A sale is a sale.

If they would loosen up on their marketing a bit (it's so dry sawdust comes out) they could really juice AE sales on Steam.

Ad copy: "WITP-AE is the biggest, meanest, hairiest wargame ever designed. You probably aren't smart enough to understand it. You probably can't play it, tough guy. You'd probably run away crying like a little girl. But if you're man enough to try it, for today only in the Steam Summer Sale you can challenge yourself to the duel for only $19.95. WITP-AE has never been available for this price before and we pledge it will never be offered for less than it is today.

So what's it gonna be, big man? Four more Whoppers with fries, or the hardest game you've ever seen? Do you feel lucky, punk? Well? Do ya?"

50,000 units easy in the Summer Sale. Maybe 100,000.

[Fintilgin]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We are not moving to Steam. Some games will release on Steam and then people can buy from there with their DRM if they prefer or from us without DRM if they want that.

I look forward to it being a great success and you guys gritting your teeth, easing up the foot dragging, and 'some' becoming 'most' or 'the vast majority'.

Then, perhaps battlefront.com will move Combat Mission to Steam, make truckloads of money, and together, hand-in-hand, the wargaming community can move forward into the bright future of the 21st Century. [:D]