Question for Those Who Play Japan (Lokasenna welcome now)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

[&o]

Thanks, man. This was fun, so far. [8D]

[JocMeister]

Whatever happens it will still be fun! [:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

Just sent the turn back. I did order the three squads to attack. Why not? If they die I get info on forts and defenders. If they get extra offloads beforehand they might break through. If I don't attack they die for nothing.

Tokyo intel today: huge radio traffic. Really? [:)]

[obvert]

Awesome you got there!

Just to note. You should have prepped fully for the base. Japan does not EVER get prep notices, moving troops notices or any other unit based notices. Only heavy signal traffic in spots.

Well played, good to see this effort come to fruition even if the base is not taken.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Awesome you got there!

Just to note. You should have prepped fully for the base. Japan does not EVER get prep notices, moving troops notices or any other unit based notices. Only heavy signal traffic in spots.

Well played, good to see this effort come to fruition even if the base is not taken.

I didn't know it was never. I thought it was "incredibly rarely." [:)]

I did shift them to the target the day before landing. I don't think a SF prep would hurt, and I'm 99% sure a target prep of 0 has zero effect, but who knows what randoms lurk in the dark recesses?

It was fun watching them creep every day, looking for DL. Wish I had tried multiple targets back in the very early days while the IJN was out amphib-bonusing. Maybe next time.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

From what it sounds like to me is that both a landing on the west coast of the US using the special fast TF's on the first turn or landing a suicide force into a Japanese location to do nothing more than trigger a game mechanic that would eat up tons of resources by activating emergency units and possibly destroy large numbers of factories are both extremely gamey and in my opinion would be a game ender. I wouldn't play someone if I thought that is a tactic they found acceptable. Fortunately by pbem partner is like minded and just as new to this as I am.

I reckon that's where HR's come in and what 2 players are comfortable with.

Noted.

We have no HRs. My opponent and I are completely comfortable with this. Apparently you are not familiar with the Doolittle Raid, another "impossible", "suicide" operation that nevertheless changed the course of the war.

We now return to our scheduled program.

And if you had read much on that particular mission, you would know that Halsey's TF was spotted 600 miles off shore by one of the thousands of small fishing boats that had been drafted into service and that the Japanese did in fact react, although wrongly, but did not activate a nationwide force of reserves. It is nice to have hindsight in knowing exactly where your opponent is and isn't so as to take advantage of a game mechanic whereby a regiment could destroy dozens of square miles of factories just by landing for a single day.

There was no way an invasion force could have secretly arrived off of either the Japanese or US coasts without alerting everyone after 7 Dec.

But again, as long as your opponent is fine with these type "tactics", then all is well.

I hear what you'e saying, but you kind of have to go with the game as it is. There is no half-way in this game sometimes. You get a hex, you destroy or capture what is in it, period. The same is true all over the map, and it's equal opportunity. No advantage for either side. Same would be true if the Japanese took Sydney for a day, even though it would be unlikely to impossible in reality that they could or would wipe a bunch of the industry immediately after the battle to take the hex.

Those 'fishing boats' are actually xAKL convertible to PBs in game. A number of the exact same boats that were there, down to the name, are available in game (Nagato Maru, Nitto Maru, etc). So if you want to approximate the Japanese pickets you have to convert them to PBs and put them there on the approaches, just like they did. There is no guarantee they would have seen three ships, but a pretty good chance, even if spread out, that they'd spot two CVs and a bunch of cruisers and DDs.

I do put them out there, but it involves taking them out of the escort role for which you are always short as Japan. It's all choices.

Here is a note about the actual ships that met the fleet and forced them to launch early. Note there was also an 'armed merchant cruiser,' which for japan could also have included search float planes, another possibility in game.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Halsey-Doolittle Raid: TF 16 (Vice Admiral William F. Halsey Jr.), formed around carriers Enterprise (CV-6) and Hornet (CV-8), approaches to within 650 miles of Japan. Discovery by Japanese guardboat No.23 Nitto Maru compels Vice Admiral Halsey to order Hornet to launch 16 USAAF B-25s (Lieutenant Colonel James H. Doolittle) earlier than planned.

SBDs (VB 3, VB 6) and F4Fs (VF 6) from Enterprise, meanwhile, attack Japanese guardboats ("picket" boats) encountered near TF 16, damaging armed merchant cruiser Awata Maru and guardboats Chokyu Maru, No.1 Iwate Maru, No.2 Asami Maru, Kaijin Maru, No.3 Chinyo Maru, Eikichi Maru, Kowa Maru, and No.26 Nanshin Maru. Guardboats No.23 Nitto Maru and Nagato Maru, also damaged by SBDs and F4Fs from Enterprise, are sunk by gunfire of light cruiser Nashville (CL-43) (see 19 April). [/font]

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-Chron/USN-Chron-1942.html

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

Awesome you got there!

Just to note. You should have prepped fully for the base. Japan does not EVER get prep notices, moving troops notices or any other unit based notices. Only heavy signal traffic in spots.

Well played, good to see this effort come to fruition even if the base is not taken.

I didn't know it was never. I thought it was "incredibly rarely." [:)]

I did shift them to the target the day before landing. I don't think a SF prep would hurt, and I'm 99% sure a target prep of 0 has zero effect, but who knows what randoms lurk in the dark recesses?

It was fun watching them creep every day, looking for DL. Wish I had tried multiple targets back in the very early days while the IJN was out amphib-bonusing. Maybe next time.

With 100% prep they would have taken very few disabled troops against only a Japanese base force with 9 SNLF squads. You likely would have been able to take the base easily, but only if he has no armor to move to Utsonomiya in a day from Tokyo and no 2E to mob you to dust. Very unlikely there are no ready bombers in the HI right now. There is also usually some [R] armor on the HI at this point I think, so it might be a moot point.

[offenseman]

What glorious fun! Bravo Moose for giving it a shot- Cadillac plan even. [&o]

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: obvert


I hear what you'e saying, but you kind of have to go with the game as it is.

I have no problem if some people choose to play this way, I know it is a game with the intent to have fun. Many people choose to implement house rules of one type or another and I have no problem with that either, I try and use as few as possible.

I do have a couple questions though. I've read where players prep their units. What exactly does prepping involve? Is it simply loading them onboard ship with supplies or is there more to it than that?

In the above situation, do facilities (ports, industry, airfields) get damaged due to land combat or do they have to be captured once the enemy is destroyed or retreated?

Can any size force, in this case a few squads, destroy the facilities in the hex?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: obvert


I hear what you'e saying, but you kind of have to go with the game as it is.

I have no problem if some people choose to play this way, I know it is a game with the intent to have fun. Many people choose to implement house rules of one type or another and I have no problem with that either, I try and use as few as possible.

The trouble I've found with certain HRs is some allow a lot of misinterpretation or make sense in one respect but not in another situation that is very similar. If you outlaw landing on Honshu you have trouble saying what else you'd have to restrict.

I do have a couple questions though. I've read where players prep their units. What exactly does prepping involve? Is it simply loading them onboard ship with supplies or is there more to it than that?

Prepping is setting the unit to prepare for a certain base target. it's in the unit screen a bottom right. Critical if you're landing it amphibiously or shocking across a river. Landing against opposition withou prep will usually result in roughly 50-100% of the unit to be disabled depending on a few factors, including strength of units there, time on amphibious ships prior to landing and speed of unload.

In the above situation, do facilities (ports, industry, airfields) get damaged due to land combat or do they have to be captured once the enemy is destroyed or retreated?

Can any size force, in this case a few squads, destroy the facilities in the hex?

There is a rule for aircraft factories and other production centers (somewhere mentioned above in this thread) and other similar rules for other industry. All of it can be damaged or destroyed if the base is captured, including the port/airfield, and again when the base is recaptured, and so on.

[Sabre21]

I agree with you on Hr's, you have to be careful on what you use, but again it's what the players themselves choose.

I appreciate the help on the prepping question. Now I understand what the Set Future objective function pertains to. So from what I read, it can take quite some time to prep up. Can this be done on ship or while on the march, or does it have to be from a stationary position prior to loading or attacking?

[offenseman]

You can prep anywhere and at any time. You gain one prep point per day so 100 days to 100% prep.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




Noted.

We have no HRs. My opponent and I are completely comfortable with this. Apparently you are not familiar with the Doolittle Raid, another "impossible", "suicide" operation that nevertheless changed the course of the war.

We now return to our scheduled program.

And if you had read much on that particular mission, you would know that Halsey's TF was spotted 600 miles off shore by one of the thousands of small fishing boats that had been drafted into service and that the Japanese did in fact react, although wrongly, but did not activate a nationwide force of reserves. It is nice to have hindsight in knowing exactly where your opponent is and isn't so as to take advantage of a game mechanic whereby a regiment could destroy dozens of square miles of factories just by landing for a single day.

There was no way an invasion force could have secretly arrived off of either the Japanese or US coasts without alerting everyone after 7 Dec.

But again, as long as your opponent is fine with these type "tactics", then all is well.

I hear what you'e saying, but you kind of have to go with the game as it is. There is no half-way in this game sometimes. You get a hex, you destroy or capture what is in it, period. The same is true all over the map, and it's equal opportunity. No advantage for either side. Same would be true if the Japanese took Sydney for a day, even though it would be unlikely to impossible in reality that they could or would wipe a bunch of the industry immediately after the battle to take the hex.

Those 'fishing boats' are actually xAKL convertible to PBs in game. A number of the exact same boats that were there, down to the name, are available in game (Nagato Maru, Nitto Maru, etc). So if you want to approximate the Japanese pickets you have to convert them to PBs and put them there on the approaches, just like they did. There is no guarantee they would have seen three ships, but a pretty good chance, even if spread out, that they'd spot two CVs and a bunch of cruisers and DDs.

I do put them out there, but it involves taking them out of the escort role for which you are always short as Japan. It's all choices.

Here is a note about the actual ships that met the fleet and forced them to launch early. Note there was also an 'armed merchant cruiser,' which for japan could also have included search float planes, another possibility in game.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Halsey-Doolittle Raid: TF 16 (Vice Admiral William F. Halsey Jr.), formed around carriers Enterprise (CV-6) and Hornet (CV-8), approaches to within 650 miles of Japan. Discovery by Japanese guardboat No.23 Nitto Maru compels Vice Admiral Halsey to order Hornet to launch 16 USAAF B-25s (Lieutenant Colonel James H. Doolittle) earlier than planned.

SBDs (VB 3, VB 6) and F4Fs (VF 6) from Enterprise, meanwhile, attack Japanese guardboats ("picket" boats) encountered near TF 16, damaging armed merchant cruiser Awata Maru and guardboats Chokyu Maru, No.1 Iwate Maru, No.2 Asami Maru, Kaijin Maru, No.3 Chinyo Maru, Eikichi Maru, Kowa Maru, and No.26 Nanshin Maru. Guardboats No.23 Nitto Maru and Nagato Maru, also damaged by SBDs and F4Fs from Enterprise, are sunk by gunfire of light cruiser Nashville (CL-43) (see 19 April). [/font]

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-Chron/USN-Chron-1942.html

Thanks for doing a response.

Here, the DD turned back 400 miles from the coast. All a "fishing boat" would have seen was an ocean liner. Quite a different thing than a carrier TF. But, as I told Lokasenna (who is amused and interested by this turn of events, a great opponent to have) I ack. there are imaginary fishing boats in our game. BUT, imaginary sun spots kept the imaginary radios from working. So, no DL.

As for the OP's assertion that I knew exactly where the enemy was . . . in a pig's eye. I had old Sigint, far worse than real life. I did not have it for every potential target. Those I did not have it for left the target list. Such is life.

As for a regiment taking out industry in a day, consult history. Hellooooooo. Fire? See "Sacking of Jerusalem", "Sacking of Alexandria", "Sacking of Rome", "Sacking of . . ." Cities are easy to break. Only breaking small, defined parts of them? That's hard.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

Awesome you got there!

Just to note. You should have prepped fully for the base. Japan does not EVER get prep notices, moving troops notices or any other unit based notices. Only heavy signal traffic in spots.

Well played, good to see this effort come to fruition even if the base is not taken.

I didn't know it was never. I thought it was "incredibly rarely." [:)]

I did shift them to the target the day before landing. I don't think a SF prep would hurt, and I'm 99% sure a target prep of 0 has zero effect, but who knows what randoms lurk in the dark recesses?

It was fun watching them creep every day, looking for DL. Wish I had tried multiple targets back in the very early days while the IJN was out amphib-bonusing. Maybe next time.

With 100% prep they would have taken very few disabled troops against only a Japanese base force with 9 SNLF squads. You likely would have been able to take the base easily, but only if he has no armor to move to Utsonomiya in a day from Tokyo and no 2E to mob you to dust. Very unlikely there are no ready bombers in the HI right now. There is also usually some [R] armor on the HI at this point I think, so it might be a moot point.

Six squads got ashore in the one phase I had, and three are disabled. No arty, no engineers. Enough supply for three squads, but big whoop. Another day and things are very different, but with 10/10 DL and air power next door I don't think there will be a second day of unloading. Waiting the turn back now.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: offenseman

What glorious fun! Bravo Moose for giving it a shot- Cadillac plan even. [&o]

Thank you. One more trick up the Moose's sleeve, then we go back to getting our butarkis kicked. Be a few days.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: offenseman

You can prep anywhere and at any time. You gain one prep point per day so 100 days to 100% prep.

Can't prep off-map so far as I know.

[Bullwinkle58]

Turn back. Sadly, I get a Chevy after all.

Invasion Support action off Utsonomiya (115,60)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

27 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
xAP Mariposa

Japanese ground losses:
14 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

xAP Mariposa fired at enemy troops
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Utsonomiya at 115,60, Range 10,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Ashigara
DD Kuroshio
DD Ayanami
DD Ushio

Allied Ships
xAP Mariposa, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk

Allied ground losses:
2780 casualties reported
Squads: 181 destroyed, 87 disabled
Non Combat: 128 destroyed, 127 disabled
Engineers: 14 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 171 (170 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 21 (21 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Reduced sighting due to 3% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 3% moonlight: 10,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 10,000 yards
Japanese open fire on surprised Allied ships at 10,000 yards
xAP Mariposa sunk by CA Ashigara at 10,000 yards
xAP Mariposa sunk by CA Ashigara at 10,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Utsonomiya at 115,60, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Ashigara
DD Kuroshio
DD Ayanami
DD Ushio

Allied Ships
xAP Thomas Barry, Shell hits 16, and is sunk

Allied ground losses:
1004 casualties reported
Squads: 150 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 29 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 65 (60 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 3 (3 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Japanese Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Allied TF begins to get underway
Reduced sighting due to 3% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions and 3% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
xAP Thomas Barry sunk by CA Ashigara at 2,000 yards
xAP Thomas Barry sunk by CA Ashigara at 2,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...

===============================

Morning Air attack on 148th Infantry Regiment, at 115,60 (Utsonomiya)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 9 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 31
G4M1 Betty x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
71 casualties reported
Squads: 17 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
31 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
12 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

=======================

Lokasenna told me that was about the only base in Japan with zero forts. The base force there had 0 AV. If I had gotten to attack it would have fallen. He said he had 600,000 supply invested already in the aircraft factories there.

We go on.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Wendell Willkie just won the next presidential elections...

EDIT: Sorry not Willkie; Thomas Dewey

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Wendell Willkie just won the next presidential elections...

EDIT: Sorry not Willkie; Thomas Dewey

I thought Dewey won in 1948? I saw a newspaper once . . . [:)]

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I agree with you on Hr's, you have to be careful on what you use, but again it's what the players themselves choose.

I appreciate the help on the prepping question. Now I understand what the Set Future objective function pertains to. So from what I read, it can take quite some time to prep up. Can this be done on ship or while on the march, or does it have to be from a stationary position prior to loading or attacking?

There is a lot more to it than just this. Read this thread from last month.

tm.asp?m=3545042&mpage=1&key=prep&#3553652

As to when, just look at the unit and whenever you can press the button you can set the objective.

Alfred