Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

[Barb]

Do you count every factory as size 30? or just RnD factories? That would mean hell of a supply investment ... I doubt Japan has that much..

[Spidery]

Just a few thoughts. It is a good of you to document all this research: makes it easier for anyone else planning to play PDU off.

You seem to be planning on producing all the needed models throughout the war. Instead, you could build stockpiles early that should last the war out and then change to something else. If you build too many then you can use them up as kamikazes, if you build too few you can consign the groups for training roles.

This could reduce the need to spread thinly.

Have you checked withdrawal dates? I think some of the groups that seem to get stuck with obsolete models do so because they are withdrawn before the new models are available.

Some more detailed comments.

I think there are relatively few groups that upgrade to the Ki-83 and most of them are groups already flying fairly modern models. However, there are lots of groups that fly the Oscar and can upgrade to the Ki-94-II. So I suggest putting lots of effort into the Ki-94-II.

There is one 9 plane group restricted to the Lorna. As that plane is so hopeless, can you just consign that group to training with the 2 aircraft it comes with and free up a factory for something useful?

Do you need the D4Y2-S? I think all the groups that use this can fly the Irving.

Ki-119 - 12th Sentai I think is a group that upgrades to this. However, you could leave the group flying the Lily (or Sally) and not build it at all.

Do you need that much effort on the Ki-45a? The time before it is available is so short that you are unlikely to advance it.

Do you need the Ki-102b or can you leave groups that upgrade to it on their predecessor?

Do you need the Ki-54c? I think the 108th Sentai is the only thing that uses it and that can change to the Ki-57-II.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Do you count every factory as size 30? or just RnD factories? That would mean hell of a supply investment ... I doubt Japan has that much..

No, not at all!
Only few of them will be brought to 30. Those where I really need to focus the efforts
The other ones will be left as they are, more or less...

The "focused" ones are:
3 x 30 Rufe
1 x 30 A6M2Sen Baku
4 x 30 A6M3
3 x 30 B6N1
3 x 30 B7A2
4 x 30 D4Y1
2 x 30 J1N1-S
3 x 30 J2M3
6 x 30 KI-43 IIa
5 x 30 KI-44a
3 x 30 KI-45a
3 x 30 KI-61a
4 x 30 KI.-83
5 x 30 KI-84a
2 x 30 KI-84b
3 x 30 N1K1

54*30 means... 1,620,000 supplies... just for these RnD lines... scary[X(]

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

Just a few thoughts. It is a good of you to document all this research: makes it easier for anyone else planning to play PDU off.

You seem to be planning on producing all the needed models throughout the war. Instead, you could build stockpiles early that should last the war out and then change to something else. If you build too many then you can use them up as kamikazes, if you build too few you can consign the groups for training roles.

This could reduce the need to spread thinly.

Have you checked withdrawal dates? I think some of the groups that seem to get stuck with obsolete models do so because they are withdrawn before the new models are available.

Some more detailed comments.

I think there are relatively few groups that upgrade to the Ki-83 and most of them are groups already flying fairly modern models. However, there are lots of groups that fly the Oscar and can upgrade to the Ki-94-II. So I suggest putting lots of effort into the Ki-94-II.

There is one 9 plane group restricted to the Lorna. As that plane is so hopeless, can you just consign that group to training with the 2 aircraft it comes with and free up a factory for something useful?

Do you need the D4Y2-S? I think all the groups that use this can fly the Irving.

Ki-119 - 12th Sentai I think is a group that upgrades to this. However, you could leave the group flying the Lily (or Sally) and not build it at all.

Do you need that much effort on the Ki-45a? The time before it is available is so short that you are unlikely to advance it.

Do you need the Ki-102b or can you leave groups that upgrade to it on their predecessor?

Do you need the Ki-54c? I think the 108th Sentai is the only thing that uses it and that can change to the Ki-57-II.

Great Thoughts Spidery! Thanks!

KI-83: mmm... in my book I find quite a few groups that get to the KI-83... but you're right that the KI-94 is very wide spread...mmm but it's so far away that I really don't know if it's worth reasearching it....
D4Y2-S:There is at least a NF group that comes with the D4Y2-S and then it upgrades to P1Y2-S... thought to skip the NF frances and leave it with the Judy version... pretty hard to decide here...mmmm
Lorna: yes, you're right...hopeless plane
KI-119: found! You are right it's the 12th Sentai... I see what u mean, but shouldn't I need all those juicy 800kg bomb carriers in 1945? For sure it's a lot of wasted resources for a single sentai...mmmm...
KI-102b: the predecessor is the KI-45c or the KI-48 IIb... neither of them is a good plane imho. If I don't produce not even a single KI-102b i'll be stuck with those crappy planes... but I see, again, your point... with PDU OFF you can't have all you want and have to make hard choices...
KI-54c: my mistake, wanted to write KI-54b! Which is a crappy bomber to which many late arrival sentais are stuck...

[Encircled]

Thats a shed load of supply

Are you sure you want to use that much on R & D?

[Spidery]

You need about 6 factories on the Ki-94-II to expect to have it available in December 1944. 4 factories would have it available mid January 1945 (or you could get lucky or unlucky - there is a lot of spread with long research times).

If you plan to survive to May 1946 then that gives you 15 months to use it and you should have the supply, engines and HI to deploy it.

Do you have any altitude HR? If you do, it may handicap the Ki-94-II as the max ceiling is its biggest strength.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Thats a shed load of supply

Are you sure you want to use that much on R & D?

I know, I know... decisions, decisions...

The fact is that, without RnD investments I won't be able to put up a decent fight not even in 1943 with PDU OFF... do you know what does it mean fighting Corsairs, Hellcats and P-38s with KI-43 IIa, A6M3s and a couple of KI-44IIa? Certain distruction!

...

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

You need about 6 factories on the Ki-94-II to expect to have it available in December 1944. 4 factories would have it available mid January 1945 (or you could get lucky or unlucky - there is a lot of spread with long research times).

If you plan to survive to May 1946 then that gives you 15 months to use it and you should have the supply, engines and HI to deploy it.

Do you have any altitude HR? If you do, it may handicap the Ki-94-II as the max ceiling is its biggest strength.

Yes, we will have limited altitude to 32K from 1944 on...

Really seems too much of investment for a 1945/46 plane.

I'm leaning towards the very same option I used with QBall... stopping any RnD after Ki-84 line...so to say get the N1K1, the J2M3, the KI-84a and then stop and let the rest arrive when the time has come...

[JocMeister]

This will be my last post since I´m going to give Erik what aid I can. Just wanted to wish you a final good luck! [:)]

[Spidery]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Spidery

You need about 6 factories on the Ki-94-II to expect to have it available in December 1944. 4 factories would have it available mid January 1945 (or you could get lucky or unlucky - there is a lot of spread with long research times).

If you plan to survive to May 1946 then that gives you 15 months to use it and you should have the supply, engines and HI to deploy it.

Do you have any altitude HR? If you do, it may handicap the Ki-94-II as the max ceiling is its biggest strength.

Yes, we will have limited altitude to 32K from 1944 on...

Really seems too much of investment for a 1945/46 plane.

Most of the supply investment will come in 1944 when you have a better idea of whether you can survive to 1946.

I'm leaning towards the very same option I used with QBall... stopping any RnD after Ki-84 line...so to say get the N1K1, the J2M3, the KI-84a and then stop and let the rest arrive when the time has come...

Is this game realistic R&D off? If so, then you don't need to stop at the first of a line. You can build enough to fill out the groups that can use the first model quickly then restart R&D with the next in line. You can be adaptive in this, moving factories forward as the production demand drops.

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
KI-54c: my mistake, wanted to write KI-54b! Which is a crappy bomber to which many late arrival sentais are stuck...

I don't know if DBB reinforcement and upgrade are the same that stock game...anyway,
about Ki-54b, you don't need to build it to fill the groups. In my reinforcement list
they came in May 1945 with four Shinbu-tai (299th, 300th, 303rd, 304th), and all of this
came full of planes (10 each). You can use this 40 Ki-54b as one-shoot-airplane and then
disband the groups. O no?

Now I've a question for you: all the Ki-48-Ib Sentai upgrades to Ki-48-IIa and then switch
to Ki-48-IIb/IIc (Lily Dive Bomber version) before they can be updgraded to other model (some
in Ki-119, some in Ki-45 KAIc and so on)...what you think to do with this Sentai? Keep all the
Ki-48-IIa for the entire war (and maybe use their 4x100kg bomb for ASW)? Or...? Or what?

[Lokasenna]

I largely agree, however have you looked at the Transport groups? I noticed that you are stopping the Thalia. Can all groups upgrade to Topsy? I like the Topsy, in general, over the Thalia, so in general I like this decision...but I didn't see any note about "dead end" transport sentais.


Other comments:

* The 3x Rufe R&D are for A6M5 and beyond?

* No Seiran? Or did I miss it somewhere in your list (I thought it was M6A1 or something)? Or do no groups use it? Likewise, the Paul? Or did your previous experiment with this plane (it was you, right?) not work out?

* Are you going to R&D all of those late-war planes from the start? I realize there's a supply cost to using the same factory to R&D multiple lines, but realistically we know that you won't get any return from the investment on planes like the Randy and Ki-83 for several years of game time. If Realistic R&D is set to On... maybe you aren't able to convert many of these factories to as wide a variety of planes?


I think you are largely limited by the air groups more than anything else, so the initial production makes sense. And the places you have chosen to focus in R&D imply which groups will be your front line units, which will be second string, etc. I think it makes sense, but I did have those questions above [:)].

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
KI-54c: my mistake, wanted to write KI-54b! Which is a crappy bomber to which many late arrival sentais are stuck...

I don't know if DBB reinforcement and upgrade are the same that stock game...anyway,
about Ki-54b, you don't need to build it to fill the groups. In my reinforcement list
they came in May 1945 with four Shinbu-tai (299th, 300th, 303rd, 304th), and all of this
came full of planes (10 each). You can use this 40 Ki-54b as one-shoot-airplane and then
disband the groups. O no?

Now I've a question for you: all the Ki-48-Ib Sentai upgrades to Ki-48-IIa and then switch
to Ki-48-IIb/IIc (Lily Dive Bomber version) before they can be updgraded to other model (some
in Ki-119, some in Ki-45 KAIc and so on)...what you think to do with this Sentai? Keep all the
Ki-48-IIa for the entire war (and maybe use their 4x100kg bomb for ASW)? Or...? Or what?

You are probably right about those KI-54b... I now checked and your assertions seem correct. Think i'll give that Industry away and forget about the nasty KI-54 line!

After some thoughts on that subject, I think i'll stick with the Lily Dive bombers and forget about any future upgrades... The KI-45 KAIc may be the only interesting one for rear-guard duties against long range 4E raids. The KI-119 is just too far away...

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I largely agree, however have you looked at the Transport groups? I noticed that you are stopping the Thalia. Can all groups upgrade to Topsy? I like the Topsy, in general, over the Thalia, so in general I like this decision...but I didn't see any note about "dead end" transport sentais.


Other comments:

* The 3x Rufe R&D are for A6M5 and beyond?

* No Seiran? Or did I miss it somewhere in your list (I thought it was M6A1 or something)? Or do no groups use it? Likewise, the Paul? Or did your previous experiment with this plane (it was you, right?) not work out?

* Are you going to R&D all of those late-war planes from the start? I realize there's a supply cost to using the same factory to R&D multiple lines, but realistically we know that you won't get any return from the investment on planes like the Randy and Ki-83 for several years of game time. If Realistic R&D is set to On... maybe you aren't able to convert many of these factories to as wide a variety of planes?


I think you are largely limited by the air groups more than anything else, so the initial production makes sense. And the places you have chosen to focus in R&D imply which groups will be your front line units, which will be second string, etc. I think it makes sense, but I did have those questions above [:)].

Yup, the Rufes are for the A6M5 and the Sen Baku is to be able to get the upgrade path of those groups which have the SEN Baku as a chokepoint to the A6M5b version...

Seiran? Yes, I don't want it. It's a float TB plane...used on late huge subs...a waste of resources imho. Don't plan to build any of those sub-monsters.
Paul... I know... I have only 2 sentais coming in 1000+ days with those planes... with no upgrade paths... worth?
Norm.. I've loved this float plane, but can't find a single unit that upgrades to it...am I missing something??

To be honest, even if it's cool and trendy to RnD those late war planes, in a realistic PDU OFF scenario, you're not gonna have that much return from them, even if you invest a lot of resources.
How many groups upgrade to the KI-83 line? 4 Sentais
How many to the J7W1? 7 Sentais
How many to the KI-94 II?...A LOT!
How many to the KI-84a? A LOT!

So... I need to change my mind and my plans.
Way less investments in the Ki.83 and reconsider the other production lines...

What do u imply Lokaseanna with your last question? Supply is really critical for Japan and both me and Obvert have seen the last year of war and we both know what really limits Japanese ability to keep on fighting isn't the quality of its planes but, above all, the supplies (the lack of them).
So is it really worth to spend thousands of supplies to convert the same RnD factories on multiple lines, even being able to do that? Isn't it better to simply be less trendy and stick with lots of crappy planes, while reasonably focus on very few usefull lines? Like the Ki.43, Ki-44 and A6M ones?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Spidery

You need about 6 factories on the Ki-94-II to expect to have it available in December 1944. 4 factories would have it available mid January 1945 (or you could get lucky or unlucky - there is a lot of spread with long research times).

If you plan to survive to May 1946 then that gives you 15 months to use it and you should have the supply, engines and HI to deploy it.

Do you have any altitude HR? If you do, it may handicap the Ki-94-II as the max ceiling is its biggest strength.

Yes, we will have limited altitude to 32K from 1944 on...

Really seems too much of investment for a 1945/46 plane.

Most of the supply investment will come in 1944 when you have a better idea of whether you can survive to 1946.

I'm leaning towards the very same option I used with QBall... stopping any RnD after Ki-84 line...so to say get the N1K1, the J2M3, the KI-84a and then stop and let the rest arrive when the time has come...

Is this game realistic R&D off? If so, then you don't need to stop at the first of a line. You can build enough to fill out the groups that can use the first model quickly then restart R&D with the next in line. You can be adaptive in this, moving factories forward as the production demand drops.

I really don't wanna abuse the Realistic RnD OFF system. For example I won't convert the A6M2 factories to A6M2 Sen Baku ones. I would like to play a game as much realistic as possible. So to say, we all know that the Ki-44b is crap...but the Japanese didn't know that. probably they would need a feedback from the pilots first before moving to the KI-44c line.
So I will try to keep, at least for the most important production lines, at least a mid-path plane in production.

My goal in this match isn't to maximise Japanese RnD system, but to get the best out of a PDU OFF game, without screwing my supply reserves.

I'd like to have a balanced and historically realistic air force.
For example, in mid 1943, I'd like to have some sentais equipped with 2nd generation fighters, but having the bulk of my air force stuck with old "horses".
Something like (in mid 1943):
50% A6M3/5s and KI-43 (IIa and IIb)
10% N1K and J2M
20% KI-44 (a, b and c)
20% KI-61s and KI-84a

Something like that...

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I largely agree, however have you looked at the Transport groups? I noticed that you are stopping the Thalia. Can all groups upgrade to Topsy? I like the Topsy, in general, over the Thalia, so in general I like this decision...but I didn't see any note about "dead end" transport sentais.


Other comments:

* The 3x Rufe R&D are for A6M5 and beyond?

* No Seiran? Or did I miss it somewhere in your list (I thought it was M6A1 or something)? Or do no groups use it? Likewise, the Paul? Or did your previous experiment with this plane (it was you, right?) not work out?

* Are you going to R&D all of those late-war planes from the start? I realize there's a supply cost to using the same factory to R&D multiple lines, but realistically we know that you won't get any return from the investment on planes like the Randy and Ki-83 for several years of game time. If Realistic R&D is set to On... maybe you aren't able to convert many of these factories to as wide a variety of planes?


I think you are largely limited by the air groups more than anything else, so the initial production makes sense. And the places you have chosen to focus in R&D imply which groups will be your front line units, which will be second string, etc. I think it makes sense, but I did have those questions above [:)].

Yup, the Rufes are for the A6M5 and the Sen Baku is to be able to get the upgrade path of those groups which have the SEN Baku as a chokepoint to the A6M5b version...

Seiran? Yes, I don't want it. It's a float TB plane...used on late huge subs...a waste of resources imho. Don't plan to build any of those sub-monsters.
Paul... I know... I have only 2 sentais coming in 1000+ days with those planes... with no upgrade paths... worth?
Norm.. I've loved this float plane, but can't find a single unit that upgrades to it...am I missing something??

To be honest, even if it's cool and trendy to RnD those late war planes, in a realistic PDU OFF scenario, you're not gonna have that much return from them, even if you invest a lot of resources.
How many groups upgrade to the KI-83 line? 4 Sentais
How many to the J7W1? 7 Sentais
How many to the KI-94 II?...A LOT!
How many to the KI-84a? A LOT!

So... I need to change my mind and my plans.
Way less investments in the Ki.83 and reconsider the other production lines...

What do u imply Lokaseanna with your last question? Supply is really critical for Japan and both me and Obvert have seen the last year of war and we both know what really limits Japanese ability to keep on fighting isn't the quality of its planes but, above all, the supplies (the lack of them).
So is it really worth to spend thousands of supplies to convert the same RnD factories on multiple lines, even being able to do that? Isn't it better to simply be less trendy and stick with lots of crappy planes, while reasonably focus on very few usefull lines? Like the Ki.43, Ki-44 and A6M ones?

Ah, I understand a little better now about some of those models. I think you're right to just leave the R&D on those late war models, really. As you say, with PDU Off, you'll be using such a wide variety of airframes (on both sides) due to airframe restrictions within units that you should be fine.

I was mainly asking if Realistic R&D On restricted your ability to change factories to something else (from Ki-27b to G4M2 if you wanted to, for example - is that possible in Realistic R&D On?)... Because if you can only change the R&D factories to similar models, then it doesn't make sense to put a lot of effort into working for so many models. Just focus on the mainstays, while still producing your "dead end" airframes.

Which I think is your implication with your final question/statement.

[ny59giants]

I'll take you in another direction again Nic. Any consideration on expanding some Light or Heavy Industry in Japan very early in the war as some of it will pay back by 45?? Since Refineries don't produce supply in DBB, this has to be considered. Maybe even in Manchuria as it sees even less 4e bombers.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

I really don't wanna abuse the Realistic RnD OFF system. For example I won't convert the A6M2 factories to A6M2 Sen Baku ones. I would like to play a game as much realistic as possible. So to say, we all know that the Ki-44b is crap...but the Japanese didn't know that.

Trust me, in PDU off you are happy anytime a new aircraft becomes available so you can upgrade an obsolete air unit. On that note though I'm out of here. I'm going to follow Erik's AAR exclusively this time around. Enjoy the game and I wish you the best of luck.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
]


I really don't wanna abuse the Realistic RnD OFF system. For example I won't convert the A6M2 factories to A6M2 Sen Baku ones. I would like to play a game as much realistic as possible. So to say, we all know that the Ki-44b is crap...but the Japanese didn't know that. probably they would need a feedback from the pilots first before moving to the KI-44c line.

I could not agree with this more. Frankly, I have always been suspicious of the research model that allows for parallel research of models that I suspect were sequential. Frankly, I would have expected that a player should have to completely research the Ki-44b before converting the research effort to the Ki-44c. I get very rationale (seeming) results playing Japanese R&D this way. The whole line gets accelerated, dogs and all. Meanwhile, parallel research efforts are going on for different airframes entirely.

[GreyJoy]

Getting ready. HRs are set (will post them soon) and am already working (in spare time [:(]) at my first turn.

I'm thinking of a very usual opening. Nothing too fancy. Kotha Baru, Lingayen, Guam etc... I wanna do things fast, but wanna try to avoid any major mistake in the opening hours.

Obert offered me to do a double port strike on turn one... not sure if it's fair so I probably won't do a Manila attack combined with a PH one.. the allies would have been already alerted me guess... but we'll see. i'll discuss with Erik once more about that.
Also I keep on thinking that Manila isn't such a juicy target...

I had forgotten how long is the Japanese first turn....[>:][X(]