DW: Universe in top 10 sellers @ Steam!

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: pycco

ORIGINAL: Darkspire

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet

I went to register on Steam yesterday just so I could answer some questions, and it turns out it was required to install the Steam Client just to validate my email Address - yeah, right [8|]

I am in the same boat, I jumped through all the hoops and waited for days only to find out unless you succumb to the dark side and install the Steam app you can't post.

Darkspire

why do you guys hate steam with such passion? just curious no flame war please.

It's online DRM in general for me. I don't like being treated like I've done something wrong when I haven't. It's almost like they see all of us as being guilty until proven guilty, if that makes sense.

And to clarify, the Serial # Matrix requires is OK. It is a one time thing. It's having some intrusive program that is constantly watching over my shoulder (Steam client) that I object to.

[Osito]

[nm]

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

IDK when it got back into the top 10 but DW is back up to 6th after falling down to around 15th. I don't know what would have caused that but I would love to think the coverage by Quill18 helped with that. I don't know if any other big youtubers covered it but he's the largest channel I've seen cover a Slith product at 150k subs and he was very impressed.

Almost certainly, Quill's got a big following amongst exactly the kinda people who will love this game. The really nice thing is that Quill's fans will still find his DW vid long after DW drops off the front pages on Steam.

What would be even better is if he did a full LP - a lot of people have already requested one in comments on that vid. Hopefully he's getting just a little bit tired of EU and Civ5 by now

Hopefully the likes of Arumba will pick it up too.

[Buio]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
It's online DRM in general for me. I don't like being treated like I've done something wrong when I haven't. It's almost like they see all of us as being guilty until proven guilty, if that makes sense.

And to clarify, the Serial # Matrix requires is OK. It is a one time thing. It's having some intrusive program that is constantly watching over my shoulder (Steam client) that I object to.

I think you like other Steam haters are just overvaluing the DRM thing. You are of course right to have your opinon and not play or support any Steam games, but in my opinion it's just making a mountain out of a molehill or Don Quixote fighting windmills.

Regarding the serial, do you understand that Steam version of DWU has less DRM than the Matrix one? And calling Steam intrusive and "watching over my shoulder" is silly according to me. Compared to what others do that you have no control over as long as you are using the internet, Steam is a tiny needle in a haystack.

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Buio
I think you like other Steam haters are just overvaluing the DRM thing. You are of course right to have your opinon and not play or support any Steam games, but in my opinion it's just making a mountain out of a molehill

If you ever get your entire account locked and access to your games blocked (for whatever silly reason), you will be singing a different tune.

The non-Steam route means that you have direct control of your game, anytime... anywhere.

[whiran]

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet
What really gets me is why do Steam users think their games are so secure?

Have they ever thought about the bigger picture?

I don't know about you but over the years I've lost / broken a few game disks / CDs of the games I bought in a store.

On top of that, CDs degrade over time. There will come a point when any CDs you have in your collection will no longer work at all. Plus, as Operating Systems change old games become harder and harder to install properly.

I still have games on floppy disks from my Apple II+ days. I can't play them though. I no longer have a floppy drive on my computer. On my latest laptop I don't have a dvd drive. I suspect that my next desktop system won't have a dvd drive either. In a few more years all the games that I do have on physical media will become a real pain to re-install since I'll have to track down a dvd player to even make it happen. Or, I'll simply do a digital install.

Was it a conspiracy of publishers back then to put these games on media that was going to become obsolete? Was that part of the 'bigger picture?'

For me, this is the 'bigger picture:' Steam is just another form of media. If you are really concerned about Steam disappearing then backup your system. You can run most games without Steam actively connected to anything. Many games you can simply run the executable and the game runs regardless of whether or not you logged into Steam.

One day Steam will also become obsolete just like every other form of media that I've had games delivered to me on. Steam will go the way of the floppy drive. But, in the meantime, Steam (and other digital delivery platforms) are current while DVDs (and blu-ray) are on their way out. At least digital platforms will be around longer than the current set of physical media options.

[histgamer]

Some people like Steam some people don't... Great... Can we leave it at that?

[Erik Rutins]

As a side note, we're back in the Top 10. Thank you all for your help and support on the Steam forums as well, it's been great to see our community helping out new players over there too. Our own site is where our heart is, but it's great to see so many new players jumping on board and getting to experience the joys of DW for the first time.

Loved this thread: http://steamcommunity.com/app/261470/di ... 671707177/

[Spacecadet]

ORIGINAL: whiran

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet
What really gets me is why do Steam users think their games are so secure?

Have they ever thought about the bigger picture?

I don't know about you but over the years I've lost / broken a few game disks / CDs of the games I bought in a store.

On top of that, CDs degrade over time. There will come a point when any CDs you have in your collection will no longer work at all. Plus, as Operating Systems change old games become harder and harder to install properly.

I still have games on floppy disks from my Apple II+ days. I can't play them though. I no longer have a floppy drive on my computer. On my latest laptop I don't have a dvd drive. I suspect that my next desktop system won't have a dvd drive either. In a few more years all the games that I do have on physical media will become a real pain to re-install since I'll have to track down a dvd player to even make it happen. Or, I'll simply do a digital install.

Was it a conspiracy of publishers back then to put these games on media that was going to become obsolete? Was that part of the 'bigger picture?'

For me, this is the 'bigger picture:' Steam is just another form of media. If you are really concerned about Steam disappearing then backup your system. You can run most games without Steam actively connected to anything. Many games you can simply run the executable and the game runs regardless of whether or not you logged into Steam.

One day Steam will also become obsolete just like every other form of media that I've had games delivered to me on. Steam will go the way of the floppy drive. But, in the meantime, Steam (and other digital delivery platforms) are current while DVDs (and blu-ray) are on their way out. At least digital platforms will be around longer than the current set of physical media options.

I'm not against Digital Distribution, I have a massive GOG Library and a huge collection of Indie games/Bundles.

They're all DRM free, I have them backed up as needed, and can move/install them however/whenever I please.

I also don't have a Backdoor or Big Brother (Steam) tracking me - and yes, when you need to have their Client running to even validate your Email, that's intrusive and something fishy is going on.


Microsoft used to have a Music store, they shut it down and those purchases are effectively gone.
Is Microsoft smaller than Steam?

I linked that EA was looking at buying Steam, do you really trust EA to do the right thing?


I understand a lot of people like Steam, and that's fine, it's just not something I can accept.



Back on topic, I was surprised (and glad) to see DW climb back into the Top 10 yesterday - can only mean good things.

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

If you ever get your entire account locked and access to your games blocked (for whatever silly reason), you will be singing a different tune.

There are no silly reasons why Steam suspends people's accounts. They publish a list of reasons here:

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_art ... -WFZC-5519

As can be seen, every item except one can be classified a criminal or borderline criminal activity. The one that isn't, violating code of conduct and subscriber's agreement, sounds catch all, but again it is remarkably short and to the point:

http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php ... ne_conduct

There isn't much there that does not qualify as totally unacceptable behavior directly affecting others if not actually criminal pretty much anywhere.

I find it hard to see how anyone guilty of any of these things could argue they have not done harm to others in one way or another.

There are two questions over this that do raise concerns. One is the proportionality of the punishment. If some idiot sees a CD key on a hack site and tries to use it activate a game on their account do they deserve to have all their games confiscated and be debarred from ever buying another game in future? The other is the position of valve as judge, jury and executioner with no right of appeal.

Since these things have never affected me, or are ever likely to (apart from some fraudulent use of my identity I suppose) I don't really have a feel for how valve actually deal with this in practice. All I do know is that the whining posts from banned people protesting their innocence I've seen are transparently about naive petty scams that Valve have caught them over.

[Firov]

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet
I'm not against Digital Distribution, I have a massive GOG Library and a huge collection of Indie games/Bundles.

They're all DRM free, I have them backed up as needed, and can move/install them however/whenever I please.

I also don't have a Backdoor or Big Brother (Steam) tracking me - and yes, when you need to have their Client running to even validate your Email, that's intrusive and something fishy is going on.

As has oft been stated, and then ignored by you, many Steam games include no DRM. You can literally copy the folder to a different computer and run it perfectly. I've done this. Steam itself is NOT DRM. "Steamworks" is a form of DRM, but not all Steam games use "Steamworks".

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet
Microsoft used to have a Music store, they shut it down and those purchases are effectively gone.
Is Microsoft smaller than Steam?

A more apt analogy here would be Microsoft getting out of the OS business, which obviously isn't going to happen in the near (or probably distant) future, since that's their core business. That music store was never more than a side-show for Microsoft, and barely contributed anything to Microsoft's ledger. It simply wasn't profitable for Microsoft which is why they closed it down in the first place. Steam, by contrast, is Valve's bread and butter. They're not going to close down their only effective source of income, especially not when it's a golden goose that just won't stop laying eggs.

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet
I linked that EA was looking at buying Steam, do you really trust EA to do the right thing?

True. And I tried to buy out EA for some change I found under my couch. Turns out it wasn't all that successful. In 2012, when that buyout was "considered", Valve was worth 3 billion dollars, and EA offered no more than 1 billion for the buyout.

That was two years ago. Estimates I've seen show that it could be worth 4 to 4.5 billion dollars at this point. To put that in perspective, EA has a net equity of ~2.26 billion dollars. Now, in theory, maybe they could take a really huge loan to try to buy out Valve... but wait, what's this? Valve is privately owned! In fact, Gabe Newell owns 50% of the company himself, and he's completely dead set against selling out Steam or Valve. In 2012, when that buyout was discussed, Newell publicly said that he would sooner dissolve Steam than sell it. So yeah... personally, I'm not too concerned about EA buying Valve. Frankly, the concept is ridiculous. What's next? K-Mart trying to buyout Walmart?

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet
Back on topic, I was surprised (and glad) to see DW climb back into the Top 10 yesterday - can only mean good things.

Considering your irrational fear of Steam, I'm surprised you gathered the courage to check Steam's website yourself.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
There are no silly reasons why Steam suspends people's accounts. They publish a list of reasons here:

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_art ... -WFZC-5519

As can be seen, every item except one can be classified a criminal or borderline criminal activity. The one that isn't, violating code of conduct and subscriber's agreement, sounds catch all, but again it is remarkably short and to the point:

http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php ... ne_conduct

There isn't much there that does not qualify as totally unacceptable behavior directly affecting others if not actually criminal pretty much anywhere.

I find it hard to see how anyone guilty of any of these things could argue they have not done harm to others in one way or another.

There are two questions over this that do raise concerns. One is the proportionality of the punishment. If some idiot sees a CD key on a hack site and tries to use it activate a game on their account do they deserve to have all their games confiscated and be debarred from ever buying another game in future? The other is the position of valve as judge, jury and executioner with no right of appeal.

Since these things have never affected me, or are ever likely to (apart from some fraudulent use of my identity I suppose) I don't really have a feel for how valve actually deal with this in practice. All I do know is that the whining posts from banned people protesting their innocence I've seen are transparently about naive petty scams that Valve have caught them over.

This position is a mirror image of the old saying about a police state, “if you haven’t done anything wrong you have nothing to fear”. Of course the same old question applies, “wrong according to whom”?

All your arguments supporting Valve fall short of the mark for one reason. They have the right to alter your agreement at any time for any reason and you have no recourse. They also have the right to close your account if they so choose to without warning for any reason. Nothing else matters in the back and forth debate about Steam, just because they haven’t done this yet doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t someday.

Like it or not you surrendered any notion of consumer protection or rights when you agreed to their terms. You may choose to trust them and give them your money, but I choose not to.

Jim

[pycco]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: pycco

ORIGINAL: Darkspire




I am in the same boat, I jumped through all the hoops and waited for days only to find out unless you succumb to the dark side and install the Steam app you can't post.

Darkspire

why do you guys hate steam with such passion? just curious no flame war please.

It's online DRM in general for me. I don't like being treated like I've done something wrong when I haven't. It's almost like they see all of us as being guilty until proven guilty, if that makes sense.

And to clarify, the Serial # Matrix requires is OK. It is a one time thing. It's having some intrusive program that is constantly watching over my shoulder (Steam client) that I object to.

ya i totally agree but at the same time company's like to be safe and know there products are safe, remember early 200's, pirated game versions were more popular than legit versions things like this is what lead to a DRM distributor's. one bad apple spoils the bunch. i don't see it changing ever, steam does have some great games though DayZ for instance.

things i like about steam they keep trolls at bay on there forums, easy to update games.
glad DW is back on the top 10!

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

If you ever get your entire account locked and access to your games blocked (for whatever silly reason), you will be singing a different tune.

There are no silly reasons why Steam suspends people's accounts.

Right... think about this for a second...

If I buy, say a car, using my credit card, I can, for whatever reason, block payment without losing ownership and accessibility of all the other cars I already own. It would be silly if I did.

[Gregorovitch55]

Maybe so, but what would you do if you caught someone doing any of the things listed on those pages?

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

If I buy,

Steam gets around this by not selling you anything. It's all a rental and subject to their control. You have no rights period.

Jim

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

If I buy,

Steam gets around this by not selling you anything. It's all a rental and subject to their control. You have no rights period.

Jim

Okay so...

If I rent a car...

Sound better?

(You are absolutely right)

[Icemania]

Any chance all this community energy could be directed to discussing the game? You know strategy, screenshots etc. Given Matrix has gone to Steam, and we all have a choice, it's all a moot discussion.

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

There are no silly reasons why Steam suspends people's accounts.

Right... think about this for a second...

If I buy, say a car, using my credit card, I can, for whatever reason, block payment without losing ownership and accessibility of all the other cars I already own. It would be silly if I did.
[/quote]

Yes, that's what i meant about concerns over proportionality. I don't think they actually ban people permanently for trying that scam. I think they get a "cooling off" period and get told to pay up and say they are sorry. Maybe use a Steam wallet with credit in future to buy more games, something like that.

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Any chance all this community energy could be directed to discussing the game? You know strategy, screenshots etc. Given Matrix has gone to Steam, and we all have a choice, it's all a moot discussion.

The Steam debate is highly relevant to the game especially since we still have the option to purchase through Matrix.