Der Newbie: Turn 8 I leik pockets

[jwolf]

In the last AGS screenshot, were you hoping to close a pocket east of Vinnitsa? Your two panzer divisions will get cut off easily by the AI. The pocket at Vinnitsa might even be broken by the rifle division 3 hexes east of the city, if it can move to the hex just SE of your SS division. Granted, all those Russian units will be lost -- eventually -- but this kind of delay is what really hurts the German drive during Blitzkrieg season. Basically, what I am trying to say is this: when you form a pocket, form a pocket. You want it to hold tightly. Facing weak and dispersed opposition you can usually get away with splitting some divisions into regiments in order to get a more secure perimeter around the pocket.

What route is your southern FBD taking?

[Timotheus]

"In the last AGS screenshot, were you hoping to close a pocket east of Vinnitsa?".

Yup.

"Basically, what I am trying to say is this: when you form a pocket, form a pocket. You want it to hold tightly."

Good advice. Although...

"Granted, all those Russian units will be lost -- eventually -- but this kind of delay is what really hurts the German drive during Blitzkrieg season."

Truthfully, for better or worse, I WANT the Soviets to not run and turn around and fight me. I want to encircle/destroy as many units as I can - ALL other objectives being secondary, which includes Leningrad, Kiev, what not. I don't care - I just want to bag as many as I can.

I only move east when I lose contact with the enemy and/or I need to unhinge their defensive line, because waiting will make it more expensive later.

For better or worse, am following the original Barbarossa plan to destroy the Soviet military with basically no other objectives.

"What route is your southern FBD taking?".

[jwolf]

Southern FBD = the one that started with 11th army at the Rumanian border. Should be moving through Ukraine somewhere.

With pockets, ideally you form one during one turn, then clean it up the next, and that territory has been secured (as well as lots of Russians taken POW). Then you need to keep moving east, because if you have very much of a pause the Russians can build up a thick line that is hard to crack due to sheer inertia. The key to success in 1941 is keeping the Russians off balance so they never have a chance to regroup. Granted this is much easier said than done, but that is the ideal.

For example, consider the Bialystok pocket you make in the first turn with AGC. Ideally, you would have units which form the pocket (most of your motorized and panzer units), some infantry held back to clear the pocket the next turn (though this one is so big it usually takes two), while you move most of your infantry forward past the pocketed units so that they can support the armored units ASAP. The theory is to be as economical as possible so that you can move most of your units, especially the infantry forward -- because your armored units will need infantry support after the first 2 or 3 turns, especially with major river crossings.

Yes, as you said, you want the Russians to try to hold and fight. But when they do, you also want to pocket and destroy them as quickly as possible and with the minimum of troops necessary for the job.

[Timotheus]

"Southern FBD = the one that started with 11th army at the Rumanian border. Should be moving through Ukraine somewhere."

It's going east from the Chernovstsy railline. It is now at 66, 95.

Of course yours truly has not noticed that that line DOES NOT continue east but goes north from 67, 95... but there were worse mistakes in this playthrough already.

"With pockets, ideally you form one during one turn, then clean it up the next, and that territory has been secured (as well as lots of Russians taken POW)."

I have issues with that, as pockets take me more than 1 turns to clean up, due to the sheer amount of enemy units bagged.

But yes, that is the ideal. Of course, if I pull off a REALLY big pocket...

"Yes, as you said, you want the Russians to try to hold and fight. But when they do, you also want to pocket and destroy them as quickly as possible and with the minimum of troops necessary for the job.".

I think I believe that you are under the impression that you are following a GOOD player of this game.

Let me assure you, that is definitely NOT the case [;)]

But somehow or other I do keep the Russians off balance, although - "if you have very much of a pause the Russians can build up a thick line that is hard to crack due to sheer inertia" - IS a big danger to the Axis in 1941.

We shall have to see how the "pocket first, advance later" strategy pans out vs the Stallin' AI. Remember, all is at 100-100, but the blizzard is on FULL - no pansin' out here [;)]

[Timotheus]

Updates are coming.

It's just that Der Newbie... is traumatized.

I am now on turn 33, and since the blizzard started... it... it is relentless. The Soviet AI has released all its pent up aggression from 1941 into late 1941 and January 1942. My savegames explain what is going on:

27 relentless assault
28 heroic defense
29 romania stronk
30 we hold line
31 i am tired
32 jesus
33 begins let it end

I might need to start drinking.

Heavily. [:'(]

Edit: Beginning Turn 35 now.
Even though my troops got encircled twice during the blizzard, I always had enough "oomph" to break the encirclement and route the Soviet westernmost units.

The Romanians are amazing. The Italians were never routed and hold the line. We ALL hold the line - it is amazing.

Although if I played vs a human with the full blizzard rules, I would be dead.

PS
When.... when does... when does this blizzard end. A blizzard cannot last for months, I mean come on!

[jwolf]

The first winter penalty rules hold through February 1942; last of those turns is 37 if I remember correctly. In March you might have blizzard weather somewhere but there are no special penalty rules. Your units and your CVs will start to recover during February. Don't give up hope as you have already been through the worst. It will start to get better very soon. Good luck.

[Timotheus]

Thank You kindly, Jwolf. It is a battering but surprisingly the damage is... not bad, actually. But we'll get to it when we get to it.

For now, Turn 7
The Plan

Pocket, pocket, pocket. Anything else is secondary.

AGN
We have trapped quite a few Soviet units and skillfully used Lake Peipus as a force multiplier.

We have made the pocket secure, although the Stavka clearly has designs to break through and rescue their units - look on that 11=45 stack of doom!

Will our guys hold?

Significantly, no progress towards L-grad. At all. We are sputtering about in the same place. Then again, the directive is "pockets", so we are making pockets.

[Timotheus]

AGC

Right. Remember last turn when Der Newbie had a nervous breakdown when he noticed JUST HOW MANY enemy units there are at Smolensk? Stavka is not stupid, and they know that the shortest and easiest route to Moscow is through Smolensk.

And they have massed.

We have actually turned the defense line inside out, and cut off a mass of Soviet units from their supply and rear services.

This is pretty brazen stuff!

In fact, so brazen that DNF has noticed that there is NOTHING protecting the northern flank AT ALL. All those juicy airfields just waiting to be ravaged by the northern shoulder Soviet units...

This is pretty stupid stuff!



What happened is that to blow open the front and to attempt to create the mega pocket, I had to use a lot of units and do it somewhat skillfully to pull it off.

We will see what happens (seriously, I forgot what happened, and this is a VERY interesting situation for both sides at Smolensk).

[Timotheus]

AGS

Last but not least.

AGS has pulled a few fancy moves of its own, and have trapped a ****load of enemy units, cutting them from the rear, C3 and supplies.

It is not secure, but it is surely giving Stavka a headache.

The Romanians are doing their thing, advancing into contact on a broad front after disposing of the border/delaying detachments.




Turn 7 thoughts
Audacious play! Although also could be characterized as... very brazen and risky!

We shall see how Stallin and his cronies react. Wonder if it's still the dull witted Timoshenko commanding ("herp derp I can do setpiece battle, what's all this modern fast moving units stuff bah humbug!?") OR did Zhukov ("the butcher") take over?

[Timotheus]

Railroad labor and grand strategic overview

[Timotheus]

Question - most Soviet divisions are of the 1=1 variety (i.e. 1 attack 1 defense).

But in the L-grad area (as an example) there is a 3=9 one, and of course the doom stack of 3 rifle divisions with 11=45.

Now a fort helps a defensive rating, but a 3 division Soviet force with 11 attack is pretty nifty at turn 7.

My question is: Where did this come from? Can Soviet rest/refit units and get them uber morale/exp? Or does Stavka get some divisions which are clearly better in morale/experience than others? Where the heck do these monsters come from, and so early?

They could just ruin my fun, you know... [:D]

[Timotheus]

Ja, ja, ja, that's what I am talking about!

Two tank, one motorized, a bunch of infantry and fortified regions for good measure. All of it takes its toll on enemy troops and artillery and and tank numbers.

Every turn we have had a GOOD HAUL of enemhy units (except for Turn 5, but we were catching our breath before the new kessels were made).

Seriously, this screen became an obsession with me every turn.

FYI, Soviets have lost 1,119,777 troops so far to all causes, 69K killed, 830K captured.
They have lost 8163 AFV and 2743 SP and cars, and we have captured 13777 enemy trucks which are EXCELLENT and much better than the French junk or even our Opels we use.

On the debit side we have lost 86,666 troops (OK, I am not a superstitious Der Newbie, and don't do numerology much but... [:'(]) and 683 AFV and 127 SP and AC.

"Only" 20,888 men killed, though, 64K+ disabled, which is... pretty spiffy.

All in all am satisfied with the game so far, although ominously and despite DNF protestations that "only pockets matter" we DO want to be moving East and take L-grad in 1941... and we are not moving fast enough.



The RHG is a useless command and I just attached the security guys to OKH.

They were split up and different regiments went to different cities to keep "ordnung" and keep those pesky partisans away.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

Question - most Soviet divisions are of the 1=1 variety (i.e. 1 attack 1 defense).

But in the L-grad area (as an example) there is a 3=9 one, and of course the doom stack of 3 rifle divisions with 11=45.

Now a fort helps a defensive rating, but a 3 division Soviet force with 11 attack is pretty nifty at turn 7.

My question is: Where did this come from? Can Soviet rest/refit units and get them uber morale/exp? Or does Stavka get some divisions which are clearly better in morale/experience than others? Where the heck do these monsters come from, and so early?

They could just ruin my fun, you know... [:D]

the 11 Cv stack is most likly made up by 4+4+3 cv divisions .

A unit with 48-52 morale and near 100% toe is that strong .
in the south you usualy get some 56 morale divisions, those can go up to 5 cv .

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

Question - most Soviet divisions are of the 1=1 variety (i.e. 1 attack 1 defense).

But in the L-grad area (as an example) there is a 3=9 one, and of course the doom stack of 3 rifle divisions with 11=45.

Now a fort helps a defensive rating, but a 3 division Soviet force with 11 attack is pretty nifty at turn 7.

My question is: Where did this come from? Can Soviet rest/refit units and get them uber morale/exp? Or does Stavka get some divisions which are clearly better in morale/experience than others? Where the heck do these monsters come from, and so early?

They could just ruin my fun, you know... [:D]

There are two sources for these high cv units, but the problem really is the mis-representation of the 1941b TOE for the Soviet rifle division in the game.

As Gabriel B. says, one source is the high morale units scattered around the Soviet set up. Incredible as it seems there was a logic to the Soviet OOB in June 1941. In effect Western and South-Western Fronts were designed for independent operations (without high command reinforcement) so as to stop and carry out limited counter-attacks on any invasion. The units assigned to the designated armies were basically those who would do the stopping and the units in the corps that report to the Front were the local counter-attack force. The ideal was the Front commander had a powerful reserve to hand that could be allocated to the point of most value. The reality was rather different, not least that Soviet command and control just couldn't cope with modern warfare.

But in those independent corps are some very powerful, high morale rifle divisions.

The second source is the Siberians sent west (remember that in early 1941 the Red Army's elite units were on the Japanese border). If you open the Soviet reinforcement schedule you'll see these as arriving with 10-12,000 men, lots of guns etc (compared to the heavily reduced stuff that is the hastily raised replacements for those units you are eating up in the pockets). I doubt the AI makes much good use of them, probably just adds them in piecemeal. A Soviet player should look out for them and put them into separate armies (you get enough to form the core of 2 armies), they will have high cv/morale, committed as part of the winter offensive can give the Germans a real headache.

The problem is the 1941b TOE. This was designed in early 1941 and is, as represented, a very good infantry TOE, its relatively well balanced, relatively efficient in its force allocation. But while it was notionally introduced in the Summer of 1941, the reality of the war meant that few units really converted, and certainly did not fill out to the notional strength. Its become a bit of a regular routine with the Soviets to put the high morale units on refit, combined with the 1941b gets you the 'wall of steel' so often lamented (usually by German players who abuse HQBU and Lvov etc). I believe that 1.08.2 is going to sort this out by putting in place a realistic rather than theoretical 1941b TOE.

[jwolf]

ORIGINAL: loki100

Incredible as it seems there was a logic to the Soviet OOB in June 1941.

Loki, I loved this line. [8D]

Back to the game: the southern pocket will probably take another turn to close securely, but then on turn 9 you should wipe out a large group. Nice going! In the center, that is one place where splitting your units into regiments could make a better pocket (that is, more secure). You have two motorized divisions from 3rd Panzer Army guarding the east side of the pocket; if they were split, you could have an "iron curtain" which would prevent the Russian infantry division just to the east from walking up to the space between them, thereby opening the pocket. Now it's true that you can't seal a pocket with regiments if the Russians have a significant counterattacking force, but in this case it looks like they don't really have much right there.

Your FBD moving through or near the swamps is pretty much wasted there; IMHO a much better place for it would be in the northern part of AGS, for example, Rovno-Zhitomir-Kiev.

[Timotheus]

"Incredible as it seems there was a logic to the Soviet OOB in June 1941."

Well, yeah.

Like I have written before, the Red Army was in an offensive posture, finalizing 'Groza', with the main assault to go into Romania to get to Ploesti and cutoff Germany from those oilfields. Secondary axis of advance was from the Bialystok Salient and other points on the Soviet-Russian border to tie up the German army in Poland or "General Gouvernment" if you will.

That's why the best Soviet divisions were near Romania and why the Bialystok and Brest-Litovsk were packed to the brim with tanks, artillery, airplanes, troops, and all of this was NOT dug in - from a defensive point of view total madness... from an offensive preparation view... well, the Germans were doing the same thing - getting airplanes, artillery, hospitals, supplies, oil depots RIGHT AT the border...

It is sad that the history of WW2 is unknown in Western countries and that complete idiots like glantz et al are considered as "historians of WW2".

A mass of Russian books came out based on the fact that during Perestroika and then the Yeltsin years access to the archives was allowed, and so the offensive plans came out, as well as other interesting facts - for example, that the Stalingrad Operation was a SECONDARY effort, designed to tie up German forces and keep them from the MAIN one at Rzhev.

Or Richard Sorge's, "Ramsay", successful operation as a "agent of influence" network which worked tirelessly to turn Japanese aggression from USSR and onto the Western Allies.

Or... well, there really is too much to talk about. It is a pity that those Russian books that came out during Perestroika and yeltsin years were never translated into English, and now with Putin in charge the "Great Patriotic War" version is back in vogue, and anyone who questions this is unpatriotic and liable to have some difficulties.

I would recommend to read Solonin, Pleshakov, Gerasimova and of course Suvorov/Rezun, who started the ball rolling.

Oh hey, watch this:
March of the Liberators

Toodles [:D]


Back to game - yikes, so a 50 morale division (which is not elite by any means for the Axis in the game, with many divisions haveing 80 or even 90 morale) fully equipped is THAT strong?

Mercy me, so what happens when the evacuated factories start producing their ****? I think I know the answer...

Re: Jwolf - at this point I was not a master of the cauldron. Actually, right now AS OF THIS POINT I am not a master, either [:D]

[charlie0311]

Hi Tim,

Quite amazing. Lots of stuff out of the box, as true as any other "history". Much more so in my opinion.

[Aurelian]

NVM......

[micheljq]

Ouch mega pocket of soviet troops in the center.

[Gabriel B.]

Loki probably meant 41a , 41b is a reduced toe implemented in aug 1941.