Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan

Jim, I'm not arguing with you, and I realize you are saying what if, but...

There are two things wrong with that assesment:

1)Japan has no choice but to conquer the DEI. Oh, maybe the odd island here and there can be left, but in general the DEI must be conquered.

2)The only way the Dutch remain is if Japan doesn't show up (and subsequently forfeits the game).

Why does everyone always seem to operate under the assumption that the game is only played PBEM?

Alfred has made the point on many occasions that the vast majority of game play is against the AI.

I pointed out above that it is quite easy to facilitate the survival of nearly the entire Dutch force, albeit while sacrificing most of their territory.

There will be many, many games played wherein the Dutch survive.

[Symon]

No one makes that assumption, Hans. The game postures the Dutch in a certain way. It does not compel an outcome; whether you play AI or PBEM. It requires intelligence to make the outcome worthwhile.

The developers didn’t position the game for AI or PBEM play. They made the editor for people who wanted to play a different paradigm. They made the game to kinda/sorta flow with the imperatives of the early Pacific War. Obviously, gamer weenies can break the bank. So, “what?” we should make the game so that little weenies can get their rocks off?

And then you often salt your posts with references to the developers being JFBs, or AFBs, or some other FBs, I dunno. I am not a FB. I find your comments offensive. I want them stopped.

Ciao. JWE

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Symon

No one makes that assumption, Hans. The game postures the Dutch in a certain way. It does not compel an outcome; whether you play AI or PBEM. It requires intelligence to make the outcome worthwhile.

The developers didn’t position the game for AI or PBEM play. They made the editor for people who wanted to play a different paradigm. They made the game to kinda/sorta flow with the imperatives of the early Pacific War. Obviously, gamer weenies can break the bank. So, “what?” we should make the game so that little weenies can get their rocks off?

And then you often salt your posts with references to the developers being JFBs, or AFBs, or some other FBs, I dunno. I am not a FB. I find your comments offensive. I want them stopped.

Ciao. JWE

Then you are going to have to get me banned.

I would venture to guess there are more people than me who would like to get some of your offensive comments stopped as well JWE.

However, I really don't see anything productive in getting taking this little spat any further so hows about we both just act like grown ups and drop it?

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan

Jim, I'm not arguing with you, and I realize you are saying what if, but...

There are two things wrong with that assesment:

1)Japan has no choice but to conquer the DEI. Oh, maybe the odd island here and there can be left, but in general the DEI must be conquered.

2)The only way the Dutch remain is if Japan doesn't show up (and subsequently forfeits the game).

Why does everyone always seem to operate under the assumption that the game is only played PBEM?

Alfred has made the point on many occasions that the vast majority of game play is against the AI.

I pointed out above that it is quite easy to facilitate the survival of nearly the entire Dutch force, albeit while sacrificing most of their territory.

There will be many, many games played wherein the Dutch survive.

Hey, Hans I didn't say anything about AI or PBEM. I was just trying to point out that IMO I don't think the Japanese can afford not to take the DEI. It seems to me it just makes an uphill struggle more difficult.

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan. Jim

Is there a way to play the game as if the DEI pulled out of, or never entered into, the ABDA cooperation, IOW, upheld normal relations with Japan?
The plot would be like this: The allies pushed for boycot of Japan, the DEI authorities didn't like it, they feared a Japanese attack and made a secret treaty
with Japan to stay neutral - and no allied forces in DEI. Japan attacked US and British territory and continued the import of POL products from the DEI. No
destroyed or damaged industrial facilities in DEI.

Japan didn't have to use any military Resources in DEI, OTH hand, no Japanese troops on DEI soil. When the allies were chased away, the Aussies were requested to
leave Ambon and Timor by the Dutch - business as usual. How much would this delay the Allied comeback?

Fred

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan. Jim

Is there a way to play the game as if the DEI pulled out of, or never entered into, the ABDA cooperation, IOW, upheld normal relations with Japan?
The plot would be like this: The allies pushed for boycot of Japan, the DEI authorities didn't like it, they feared a Japanese attack and made a secret treaty
with Japan to stay neutral - and no allied forces in DEI. Japan attacked US and British territory and continued the import of POL products from the DEI. No
destroyed or damaged industrial facilities in DEI.

Japan didn't have to use any military Resources in DEI, OTH hand, no Japanese troops on DEI soil. When the allies were chased away, the Aussies were requested to
leave Ambon and Timor by the Dutch - business as usual. How much would this delay the Allied comeback?

Fred

warspite1

How likely would this scenario be? I mean with The Netherlands under Nazi occupation, how keen were the Colonials in NEI keen to get into bed with Germany's allies and in so doing, really cheese off President Roosevelt?

Interesting question and would be very interested to hear views on this?

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How likely would this scenario be?

Had Dirk Jan de Geer had his way this scenario is far more likely than you might think. From Encyclopedia Britannica entry:

Dirk Jan de Geer, (born Dec. 14, 1870, Groningen, Neth.—died Nov. 28, 1960, Soest), conservative statesman and prime minister of the Netherlands (1926–29, 1939–40) who was disgraced for attempting to negotiate a peace settlement between Great Britain and Nazi Germany in 1940.
After receiving his doctorate in law in 1895, de Geer worked as a journalist and acted as town councillor of Rotterdam (1901–07). He served as a Christian Historical member of Parliament (1907–21, 1933–39), minister of finance (1921–23, 1929–33, 1939–40), and minister of the interior (1925–26). He continued his second term as prime minister in London after the German invasion of the Netherlands in May 1940.
De Geer’s abortive attempt to mediate between Great Britain and Germany following the collapse of France in June 1940 was disavowed by Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and her cabinet (in exile in England), and he resigned on Sept. 3, 1940. He was then entrusted with a mission to the Dutch East Indies but instead returned to the Netherlands and was denounced on a Netherlands government-in-exile broadcast (Radio Orange) from London on Feb. 6, 1941. For his mediation efforts of 1940, he was in 1947 dismissed from his post as minister of state, fined 20,000 guilders, and sentenced to one year’s imprisonment. The prison sentence was suspended because of his poor health and advanced age.

Wiki gives a bit more detail on his actions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Jan_de_Geer

Jim

[Anthropoid]

Seems unlikely as hell to me. Why would the Japanese accept to trade for the stuff. They were convinced they were the masters of Asia and they would be unlikely to not seek to annex DEI I'd say.

Moreover, look how far Jan de Geer's efforts got him: fined and jailed. It seems possible enough for an alterative history mod or game spinoff. But certainl out of scope for the base game.

Getting back to the 'debate' about why KNIL Army forces have little capacity to expand or replace beyond what they start with: I think what these guys are trying to tell you Hans and Jim is that, there simply were not more Dutch men or equipment to be had and what is represented in game is already a slight exaggeration.

Netherlands was liberated from the Nazis in what? 1944?

I suppose it might not be unreasonable to think that, the base game could have included data to represent an eventuality in which the DEI had held out else was not under Japanese occupation at some point in 1944 when Netherlands is liberated from Nazi occupation and that some time after that there is available some trickle of Dutch manpower and lendlease materials. I would guess the amount of manpower would be rather low however, and given what a tiny difference it would seem to make in the war in the Pacific at that point, it seems a bit of an inconseqeuntial thing.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How likely would this scenario be?

Had Dirk Jan de Geer had his way this scenario is far more likely than you might think. From Encyclopedia Britannica entry:

Jim

That's an interesting premise. Not saying it would have gone anywhere, but it is interesting to ponder.

Feed forward to the original question: Just how much would the Dutch in the DEI buy into this? How would this increase organization and equipment pools? How would lend-lease equipment be available to an avowed non-combatant? and just how would that lend-lease equipment get there? Did I miss anything? Oh, yeah, I forgot, the statwacht and landwacht are going back home, and the over-50 KNIL reservists get a pass. That's more than 30% of your ground strength.

Woof! Politicians truly believe they know better than any of us about what's good for us. ... um ... er ... hold that thought. Ciao. JWE

[Leandros]

While anyone can write or discuss what they like concerning my suggestion to this scenario, my questions were:

1. Can the game be set up for such a scenario, and
2. In what way would that eventually influence on the allieds come-back?

Fred

[Jim D Burns]

I don’t think it could work very well given the fact we basically have a 2 sided game engine. You’d need a third neutral side that could somehow cooperate with the other combatants lending them resources and oil. That said, I’m not familiar enough with the inner workings of the game engine nor can I say for certain the editor can’t make it happen somehow.

The only thing that might work would be to remove the Dutch bases from map and then have a generic base that represented the trade available to each side. How you’d make those bases non-attackable is beyond me, house rules would probably be needed unless they were treated like the off-map bases only accessible to one side somehow.

If you could somehow make these off-map bases work, you then run into the problem of neutral shipping. Would Dutch ships be allowed to haul supplies/oil/resources and if so would they be subject to attack?

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Symon

That's an interesting premise. Not saying it would have gone anywhere, but it is interesting to ponder.

Well he was Prime Minister, so if the queen's ship had been sunk as she fled Holland or if she had been a weaker monarch you never know. I doubt the government in exile could have stopped him without the queen's authority. Whether or not the Dutch people went along is another thing, my guess is some would have followed him but most probably not. I'm thinking about Vichy France, my guess is we would have seen a similar divide between peoples loyalties among the Dutch.

Jim

[Symon]

Jeez Louize Jim. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. This stuff is really cool but could easily devolve into a deep delve into never-never land. The forum wouldn't quite get it. No harm, no foul, it's actually been a lot of fun. It's just that this kind of discussion doesn't work on this forum

If you want, send me a PM. I'll send you my biz email and others from folks who's job it is/was to think of these things.

Ciao. JWE

[Jim D Burns]

LOL I'm not arguing to include this lol. I was just continuing the discussion on the tangent it took. No way would I advocate this needs to be in the game.

Jim

[Anthropoid]

It could conceivably make for a very interesting mod though, maybe even on the order of a War Plan Orange scale spinnoff game?

Assuming that sort of thing is still acceptable to those who own the game.

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
As soon as the Japanese arrived, the locals became useless for the most part as they had already been looking for their independence.
The Japanese played on this in their propaganda organ thru out the Pacific,Philippines, etc..

It seems as if the Filipinos were much more loyal to the US than the Indonesians to The Netherlands. Maybe because The Philippines had already been promised
their independence.

Fred

[wdolson]

The Dutch had done some nasty things in the DEI. I think they improved a bit by the 20th century, but there was a lot of resentment in the native population. The Philippines had only been in US hands for 40 years at that point, and while the US wasn't perfect, it was generally a better colonial master than the Spanish. And as you point out, the US had promised the Philippines full independence by 1945. Steps in that direction were being taken before the war started.

If the Indonesians hadn't driven the Dutch out after the war, they would probably still be there. They had no plans to set the DEI free after the war.

Bill

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: m10bob
As soon as the Japanese arrived, the locals became useless for the most part as they had already been looking for their independence.
The Japanese played on this in their propaganda organ thru out the Pacific,Philippines, etc..

It seems as if the Filipinos were much more loyal to the US than the Indonesians to The Netherlands. Maybe because The Philippines had already been promised
their independence.

Fred

The Filipinos deemed themselves "Americans" for the most part, BEFORE the war, and they loved MacArthur.
God only knows how they might have fared if Mac had deployed (or even USED) his planes once they knew the war had started..

One of my relatives married a Guamanian lady whose uncle was murdered by the Japanese over the hiding of the American sailor "Tweed".
A movie was made about his adventures, and contrary to the movie, the Guamanian s continued to hide him, as they too felt themselves "Americans", but in reality they thought Tweed a coward for not surrendering himself while many Guamanian s were tortured or murdered for hiding him.
To this day, many in the Pacific, (especially Hawaiians)feel all "outsiders" are "howlies", (foreigners) who only came for what they can, (perceived colonialism).
This is the view a future president took when he moved to Hawaii from where he lived, in Indonesia, (the old DEI we are discussing...true haters of anything smacking of colonialism....
To their credit, the Filipinos never felt this way as they remembered the U.S. as the military who freed them from an oppressive Spanish government.
**This comment is NOT meant to be a political slant, merely an expression of how folks in the Pacific were motivated,(or not) to fight an armed invader..as an invader, or a "liberator"..

[m10bob]

"And then you often salt your posts with references to the developers being JFBs, or AFBs, or some other FBs, I dunno."


We have all seen these accusations over the years, and I feel the Devs have had plenty of time to explain pretty much every consideration of this game.

The size of the conflict is huge to begin with, but to make the thing playable,KNOWING THE HISTORICAL OUTCOME), had to have been a very daunting task.
Gettysburg,(IMHO) might have gone either way. If it had gone to the South, who knows what outcome might have come from it...but in 1941, Japan attacked because they felt their military was about as strong as it was ever going to get..Ergo, they had to conquer as much as possible IMMEDIATELY. They knew from day one time was against them, and only a brash and deliberate universal show of "Bushido" would allow victory.

Matrix games sells...games..How many people would buy an expensive game, let alone play it...if both sides did not have some kind of chance to be victorious.?

I do not feel it makes one a "fanboy" of either side to want a challenging GAME that can hold interest and challenge both players...(even if one is the AI)..

I am also a fan of the AI..I have seen Chess games with an AI which were challenging.
With WITP or any of its' offspring, we have a similar war game, but with thousands upon thousands of pawns and knights to move across a third of the world.......

Just my humble albeit prejudiced opinion.[&o]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the Indonesians hadn't driven the Dutch out after the war, they would probably still be there. They had no plans to set the DEI free after the war.

Bill

warspite1

Why do you say that wdolson? Given what happened to all other colonial empires post war - either by force or by sensible management by the colonial power - I can see no possible scenario whereby the NEI would not have broken free of their Dutch rulers.

For the Dutch to remain as colonial masters of modern-day Indonesia would have meant the population - and it is a huge one - remaining completely apathetic to what was going on all around them in Malaysia/Singapore, Vietnam, India, The Philippines, Burma, Sri Lanka..... not to mention just about every corner of Africa.

As soon as the natives began to stir, the Dutch - even if they were tempted initially to refuse to let go - would have been pariahs if they maintained colonial rule by what would surely require ever increasing force.

Sorry but that comment makes no sense to me.